Noise Phobia Versus Panic.

[Janba]

I hope the topic makes a sense as I found it hard to word it properly.

I have 2 border collies, a breed that is known to have noise phobia and both my boys do to a degree. There is a big thunderstorm going on overhead and I have 2 panting, worried looking, unhappy BCs who are sitting as close as they can but 10 minutes ago with the thunder going they both ate their dinner. Both the BC are also sensative to verbal correction and verbal commands at a good distance. The dally couldn't care less how much noise there is. I have had dogs that I would call terrified of thunder or fire works and they panic, run blindly etc which is not the same as what I am seeing. I don't know if the boys behaviour would escalate if they felt unsafe or if I pandered to them instead of acting as I normally do.

There are studies going into whether noise phobia is inherited.

http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.com/NoisePhobia.

I'm just interested in other people thoughts on this.

[corvus]

I think the differences are in the stress reactivity of the dog. For example, if one of my dogs has a higher stress reactivity than the other, I might see much more aroused behaviour when that dog is worried about something compared to the dog with low stress reactivity. Another possible factor is how bold or shy the dog is. Bold animals tend to have active coping strategies, so just sitting around being anxious doesn't work for them. They want to do something, fight or flight. Shyer animals tend to have passive coping styles and prone to freezing or just not acting in a stressful situation until they have to. This is thought to be at least partially inherited, but may also be affected by the individual animal's past experiences.

Noise phobia is considered a possible symptom of general pathological anxiety in dogs.

[Nekhbet]

weak nerve is genetic - which in turn is your predisposition to being stressed over loud noises. Saying that they can learn it from their mother.

Have you ever thought that it comes down to a lack of learning how to deal with the loud noises that causes the stress? If they can eat during a storm obviously their anxiety has not pushed them into that level of primal panic that does not override their learning or ability to be controlled.

Remember behaviours can be learned as well.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Janba]

I think the differences are in the stress reactivity of the dog. For example, if one of my dogs has a higher stress reactivity than the other, I might see much more aroused behaviour when that dog is worried about something compared to the dog with low stress reactivity. Another possible factor is how bold or shy the dog is. Bold animals tend to have active coping strategies, so just sitting around being anxious doesn't work for them. They want to do something, fight or flight. Shyer animals tend to have passive coping styles and prone to freezing or just not acting in a stressful situation until they have to. This is thought to be at least partially inherited, but may also be affected by the individual animal's past experiences.

Noise phobia is considered a possible symptom of general pathological anxiety in dogs.

I have 2 pathologically anxious BCs

A month or so ago we were working 2 BCs (Cole and another working BC bitch) on the mob at EP with a young pup you hadn't worked out at his initial buyers and was very submissive towards both people and dogs and definitley shy. Both the adults are not overly shy or bold probably tending more towards bold than shy. There was a really loud clap of thunder and I, as the closest person, ended up with both adult beside me. I then sent them back to work despitebthe thunder and they both went on first command. The pup who is frightened of life couldn't have cared less about the thunder. Does that breeding for the biddability - the want to work for you nd with you have an effect on phobias.

I would have loved the oportunity 30 years ago to have studied some of these things at Uni instead of starting to work on parrallel evolution of flight (as in flapping wings).

[Janba]

I suppose what i am wondering in my over tired over worked brain, is does the selection for certain working traits - like the necessity to respond to commands over a long distance (i'e several hundred metres at least) increase noise sensitivit?

weak nerve is genetic - which in turn is your predisposition to being stressed over loud noises. Saying that they can learn it from their mother.

This is not weak nerve in relation to what these dogs have been bred for, but maybe it is in what you are looking for a dog. In my previous post the bitch is the mother to the pup.

[corvus]

I have 2 pathologically anxious BCs

There appears to be a link between noise phobias and separation anxiety that suggests a general anxiety disorder. I say appears, though, because the numbers aren't big. It's not gonna be every dog that has one has the general anxiety disorder, though.

A month or so ago we were working 2 BCs (Cole and another working BC bitch) on the mob at EP with a young pup you hadn't worked out at his initial buyers and was very submissive towards both people and dogs and definitley shy. Both the adults are not overly shy or bold probably tending more towards bold than shy. There was a really loud clap of thunder and I, as the closest person, ended up with both adult beside me. I then sent them back to work despitebthe thunder and they both went on first command. The pup who is frightened of life couldn't have cared less about the thunder. Does that breeding for the biddability - the want to work for you nd with you have an effect on phobias.

Hmmm, that one's getting into the realms of high speculation. There are aspects of dog personality associated with good performance including trainability and sociability and interest in playing with humans that appear to be under the influence of boldness in dogs. So it might be that breeding for biddability tends to produce bolder dogs, however, there's lots of other stuff in there that might mess it up. For example, I have a Swedish Vallhund and these dogs tends to be brimming with confidence and are usually very bold. They were bred to herd cattle. I figure it's probably necessary to be a bold dog if you're 13kg and nipping at the heels of a 500kg cow. But they also have a funny startle response. They duck at unexpected noise or movement, making it look like they are quite shy. But, you know, when a cow kicks you duck or you get kicked in the head. That makes sense, but what I can't understand is why Vallhunds tend to be extremely touch sensitive. My Vall goes weak at the knees if you brush him. It's ecstasy. My point is, maybe we breed for boldness, but also breed for conflicting traits, and somehow end up with quirks that we didn't breed for at all. We don't know enough to say much about it.

However, if it's a dog with a passive coping style, maybe it's not always obvious whether they are distressed or not. One of my dogs is naturally very calm. Recently we had four thunderstorms in a row go straight over our heads. He was unsettled by this, but the extent of his communication of his unsettlement was to come and lie down next to me. He's not obvious about it. It seems likely you could have a dog with high stress reactivity but quite bold, and a dog with low stress reactivity that is shy. And vice versa.

I would have loved the oportunity 30 years ago to have studied some of these things at Uni instead of starting to work on parrallel evolution of flight (as in flapping wings).

Are you kidding?? Sounds like a great topic!

[dancinbcs]

I am certain that fear of thunder is usually inherited. It can be a learned behaviour if the dog is left out in a bad storm without shelter but generally most dogs have the fear from puppyhood and it seems to occur in lines of dogs. You hear breeders comment that most dogs are frightened of storms because they have many dogs that are.

None of my Border Collies have ever given a toss about thunder, fireworks or any other noise. Five generations and not one bothered at all but I will not breed from anything that does have a noise phobia. I actually find it is quite rare in Borders, not just my lines, unless someone breeds from a dog with noise phobia, when a percentage of the progeny respond the same way. Most are not stupid enough to stay out in a storm but they don't really seem to fear them.

I remember one well known Obed. Ch trialling in UD that made a beeline for the clubhouse when sent on a seek back in a thunderstorm. On the way out of the ring he accidently stepped on his article, so quickly picked it up, ran back and threw it at the handler, then retreated to the clubhouse. Now that is just a smart dog.

Hearing frequency does seem to vary, even among related dogs. I currently have a mother and son. The mother is up investigating every little sound and seems to hear things well before her son and while she is not frightened of loud noises she definitely responds to them. She is far more responsive to distance commands than her son and while he is definitely not deaf, they seem to respond differently to sound. The son is going to be working with me next year in the Responsible Pet Ownership scheme in schools and when he was assessed they couldn't get any sort of startle response at all out of him. He is so calm and so far I have not come across any noise that he really takes much notice of. He is more likely to notice something from sight than sound. The easiest dog I have ever had to live with, he is also the worst dog I have ever had for recalls if he sees something interesting like a swallow or a sheep. When his sight is focused on something he doesn't seem to hear anything, or he just chooses to ignore me.

[Janba]

Is being touch sensative an advantage to a breed that needs to duck a cows kicks or works in among a herd of cattle?

A lot of what I observe is speculation and I haven't been able to find a lot research on it, but speculation leads to questions and hopefully answers.

This is digressing from noise phobia but maybe that is whre I really wanted to go. Of my 3 dogs at the moment (not a significent sample) the dally is asleep on my bedpout of sight as that is the most comfortable spot, the show bred BC is asleep on the loubge room floor, not really "in touch" but not out of sight, the wroking bred BC is asleep under my chair which is where he is always to be found if I am at home. None of them suffer from speration anxiety. The staying with me isn't taught but seems to be inherent.

The show line BC is frightened of sheep and attack is the best defence so may appear bold but isn't when it comes to stock. He is also not that biddable. Cole is biddable and very bold on stock. I have seen him push a recalcitrent wether who was stamping and threatening him half way round an advanced A course backwards and I have also had him get right back to working after being bowled over by sheep who had no respect for dogs but if you yell at him other than on stcok he turns to a lump of jelly.

I think you are right in that dogs are bred for a specific purpose can be bred for conflicting characteristics that do siut their intended role.I think I need to do more thinking and research on this.

I would have loved the oportunity 30 years ago to have studied some of these things at Uni instead of starting to work on parrallel evolution of flight (as in flapping wings).

Are you kidding?? Sounds like a great topic!

It was but not really what I wanted to do