Karen Pryor Academy In Australia

[huski]

Watch out Erny, he might come up the leash at you!

Nah, SA. Erny will just whack her e-collar out :D

[Staranais]

Watch out Erny, he might come up the leash at you! :D

Nah, SA. Erny will just whack her e-collar out :D

Oh, I thought she'd just teach him how to achieve drive satisfaction...

LOL, someone probably ought to tell Steve about this thread so he can come in and defend himself!

[huski]

Oh, I thought she'd just teach him how to achieve drive satisfaction...

LOL, someone probably ought to tell Steve about this thread so he can come in and defend himself!

Don't be silly! Positive methods don't work, you need to use a big almighty leash correction to train some consequences.

I think I should make a suggestion to Steve for the QLD workshop that's coming up in a couple of months, he can do an agility demonstration for us :D LOL.

Sorry, I shouldn't keep taking the thread OT.

[JulesP]

I am sure Steve isn't even slightly bothered that i would look elsewhere for an agility instructor!

[Cosmolo]

What rallyvalley said. I don't understand when someone feels so passionately about something, they don't start a thread on it- everyone would be alot happier to discuss with you then, although they still may not agree- than hijacking other topics.

[55chevy]

Why were they scared of the dogs???, because they wouldn't use aversives to control the dog if it came back up the leash, they would be attacked, if they did use an aversive do dominate the dog their methods went out the window. A clicker and treat will not stop a handler aggressive dog re-direct back up the leash and they know that

What has this got to do with the Karen Pryor Academy? Their professional model isn't built around working protection breeds. One training organisation that teaches a particular set of skills doesn't eliminate a diversity of other skills.

As it happens I know a lot of KPA graduates. As any reasonable person would expect, there is a diversity among them. Some of them can and do work with extreme dogs. A surprising number own them and compete in Schutzhund. I'm not a KPA graduate (although it's no secret that Karen Pryor and I have a professional relationship), and I work with these dogs too. Although I do use aversives, I have never done anything with an aggressive dog in the course of treating it's aggression that a KPA wouldn't be allowed to do.

Underlying all the stories you have a passion for dogs, but you keep believing your own stories. I think you need to step back and take stock of reality. If you know any actual KPA graduates and you know a real story that actually happened, that is evidence. If you have to make it up or make broad generalisations, then it is fiction.

People are saying that the KPA graduates must follow a particular training protocol, is that correct or not???. If they are required to follow a particular protocol and are not allowed to use the diversity of all training methods and equipment best suited for a particular type of dog, it does eliminate skill diversity in major way.............that is what I am talking about???. Any training system that outlaws the use of prong collars, E collars and aversive methods and claims to provide a workable system for any dog, are doing the dog fraternity a dis-service.

I have been down that path before several times and conducted invitations for the anit aversion brigade to show us the alternatives to training and handling a serious working dog and they failed dismally, each and every one of them, because, they refused to use the appropriate methods and tools to train that type of dog so from a reality aspect, I can't get much more real than that???. What's fiction Aidan, is the people who believe what they can achieve without the results to prove it

[JulesP]

Have you invited a KP instructor to show you alternative training methods?

[55chevy]

I agree Janba, what you can make a dog do with positive motivation is fantastic and is a method I use all the time, most of the time infact, but it's not the best method of teaching a dog what not to do reliably without leaning boundaries and consequences for it's actions. A properly trained dog needs a balance of both methods IMHO

What I found fascinating about the Susan Garrett seminar was exactly how she approached teaching boundaries and consequences for actions without the use of corrections. She teaches self control in the face of distractions and temptations as well as teaching the dogs to bounce back from failure in a training exercise and how to try again to give the correct response without shutting down. She emphasises giving the dog the choice to make the right or the wrong decision and each one has consequences. She has high drive dogs, and Decaf was a challenge in other ways as well.

What are the consequences of making a wrong decision in the Susan Garrett system???.

[55chevy]

In addition to my last comment.

I obviously think the SG program for teaching self control and consequences is a great idea, and very useful in a performance dog as well as a pet. It does require dedication, time, patience and a good understanding of dog training principles and much of it is done as foundation work exercises and some requires the control of the environment and use of the crate. I think it is a great program to promote to owners who wish to take things further with their dogs and to start them with a good foundation for further training and who wish to train without the use of corrections.

For those seeking help with serious behavioural problems, possibly because they haven't set the groundwork/done good foundation work for the relationship with their dog, they are likely not to have the time, patience or skills necessary to successfully utilise a program such as the one SG promotes. They often require results quickly, and sometimes the behaviour the dog displays is dangerous and if not fixed could lead to damage or the dog being PTS. This is where I think you need to be open in your approach to a problem.

ETA: for the example given of the dog coming up leash. I don't think any good positive trainer would attempt to fix such a dog straight away like that in front of an audience. That is very confrontational training, and more likely a positive trainer would go back to basics and teaching respect of handler/self control in a manner and environment that is not as confrontational and where the dog is not going to be able to try to physically take on the handler. I actually think something like crate games or TOT would work quite well as a starting point for this. I don't think such a trainer would ever get such a problem in their own dog as they would have done good foundation work to produce a good relationship in the first place.

What an excellent post Kavik, very nice

Most behavioual issues are the result of poor foundation training and there is a massive difference applying a method strategy when a dog is young and working on that program from there, than trying to apply a program midway through a dog's learning curve of poor behaviour. The problem is when trainers/behaviourists experienced in non aversive training methods are faced with a problem dog especially aggression and they try to apply their methods on a seasoned aggressor, the amount of work required to undo the learned behaviour enough to apply their methods effectively and in hope that the owner follows the program correctly is a major task that has a high level of failure rate due to the complexities of getting each and every desensitisation exercise exactly right in those methods. One step in the desensitisation exercises not proofed correctly will ruin and prolong the result.

A trainer/behaviourist when faced with a seasoned aggressor may need to use an aversive method in the circumstances to render the dog safe in a short period of time where a narrow field of vision dismissing aversives and promoting a one method fixes all is the downfall of a methodoligist trainer over a trainer who has a wider vison and larger box of tools.

[corvus]

I was grumping about circular discussions and look what happens!

55chevy, you are good value.

Unfortunately, you seem to be a bit masochistic. You clearly don't know any KPA graduates and you seem to have been all riled up by what is pure speculation. Just calm down. It's speculation, not fact. You apparently don't have any facts to contribute to the discussion. I'm guessing what material you have read from Karen Pryor is pretty thin on the ground because you appear to be missing pretty much every point she's ever made.

But who am I to get in the way of entertainment? ;)

I accept that none of it is your fault. Presumably you have some kind of character trait that drives you to hijack threads to get on your soapbox and draw a big target on your chest and stir the pot. We are happy to help you achieve drive satisfaction until it all gets too much for you and you quietly disappear again. Someone remind me what phase of the moon we're in? It seems like a good place to start to map the cyclical nature of these 55chevy-esque characters that rise up periodically and go through the same visible cycles on DOL before setting again some time later. I think it would help in developing a behavioural modification plan to help them get beyond crashing other people's threads. Don't worry, I'm confident that if we find the right rewards and use them to reinforce the right trick, we can make it purely positive.

[55chevy]

Seriously sick of these threads being overrun. No I do not want to read through 5 pages of one poster disagreeing that positive training is wrong because 'the dog might come up the leash'. MOST people don't have dogs like that! I am not saying e-collars and prong collars don't have a place, they do, but it is not inside an agility or obedience ring and definitely not for the average pet owner.... and who would KP method's be aimed at?

Please make a thread for ring sports, or ecollars or prong collars or whatever turns you on and quit invading other threads, it's gotten to the point where I swear you search the forum every day for the word 'positive' and jump on that thread to berate everyone with the same antidote and the same 2 or 3 unproven facts over and over. You are not winning anyone over and only making an ass of yourself and a mockery of these methods. Fanatics like you are why some people are so close minded about positive punishment methods.

The thread is about the Karen Pryor Academy and I have voiced an opinion and provided an explanation why I don't like the type of training that she promotes which is hardly a thread derailment , If you like Karen Pryor excellent then tell us why, if you don't, tell us that too, it's called a discussion.........are we not capable of that??? What's the point of a discussion if we all post the same thing and agree with each other, pretty dull don't you think???, The "derailed" threads are the one's everyone keeps coming back to and providing the discussions are kept clean without nastiness, what's the problem???

[bedazzledx2]

We might get an extinction burst

I was grumping about circular discussions and look what happens!

55chevy, you are good value.

Unfortunately, you seem to be a bit masochistic. You clearly don't know any KPA graduates and you seem to have been all riled up by what is pure speculation. Just calm down. It's speculation, not fact. You apparently don't have any facts to contribute to the discussion. I'm guessing what material you have read from Karen Pryor is pretty thin on the ground because you appear to be missing pretty much every point she's ever made.

But who am I to get in the way of entertainment? ;)

I accept that none of it is your fault. Presumably you have some kind of character trait that drives you to hijack threads to get on your soapbox and draw a big target on your chest and stir the pot. We are happy to help you achieve drive satisfaction until it all gets too much for you and you quietly disappear again. Someone remind me what phase of the moon we're in? It seems like a good place to start to map the cyclical nature of these 55chevy-esque characters that rise up periodically and go through the same visible cycles on DOL before setting again some time later. I think it would help in developing a behavioural modification plan to help them get beyond crashing other people's threads. Don't worry, I'm confident that if we find the right rewards and use them to reinforce the right trick, we can make it purely positive.

[Janba]

I was grumping about circular discussions and look what happens!

55chevy, you are good value. ;)

Unfortunately, you seem to be a bit masochistic. You clearly don't know any KPA graduates and you seem to have been all riled up by what is pure speculation. Just calm down. It's speculation, not fact. You apparently don't have any facts to contribute to the discussion. I'm guessing what material you have read from Karen Pryor is pretty thin on the ground because you appear to be missing pretty much every point she's ever made.

But who am I to get in the way of entertainment?

I accept that none of it is your fault. Presumably you have some kind of character trait that drives you to hijack threads to get on your soapbox and draw a big target on your chest and stir the pot. We are happy to help you achieve drive satisfaction until it all gets too much for you and you quietly disappear again. Someone remind me what phase of the moon we're in? It seems like a good place to start to map the cyclical nature of these 55chevy-esque characters that rise up periodically and go through the same visible cycles on DOL before setting again some time later. I think it would help in developing a behavioural modification plan to help them get beyond crashing other people's threads. Don't worry, I'm confident that if we find the right rewards and use them to reinforce the right trick, we can make it purely positive.

[55chevy]

I was grumping about circular discussions and look what happens!

55chevy, you are good value.

Unfortunately, you seem to be a bit masochistic. You clearly don't know any KPA graduates and you seem to have been all riled up by what is pure speculation. Just calm down. It's speculation, not fact. You apparently don't have any facts to contribute to the discussion. I'm guessing what material you have read from Karen Pryor is pretty thin on the ground because you appear to be missing pretty much every point she's ever made.

But who am I to get in the way of entertainment?

I accept that none of it is your fault. Presumably you have some kind of character trait that drives you to hijack threads to get on your soapbox and draw a big target on your chest and stir the pot. We are happy to help you achieve drive satisfaction until it all gets too much for you and you quietly disappear again. Someone remind me what phase of the moon we're in? It seems like a good place to start to map the cyclical nature of these 55chevy-esque characters that rise up periodically and go through the same visible cycles on DOL before setting again some time later. I think it would help in developing a behavioural modification plan to help them get beyond crashing other people's threads. Don't worry, I'm confident that if we find the right rewards and use them to reinforce the right trick, we can make it purely positive.

I think it's fair, how many people have been duped by these trainers with a toolbox full of clickers, treats and haltis trying to apply these methods on every dog to uphold their methodolist theories. We have had stories from SkyeGSD, the lady with the Husky named Zero, Donegal and a few more I have read here, reactive dogs being kicked out of training classes and the horror stories go on all because their methods are not adaptable to every type of dog behaviour. Bit like a mechanic saying they can do any job on a any car with a screwdriver and shifter

[bedazzledx2]

So 55chevy, whats your involvement?...are you a behaviourist? or a trialler? or is your interest in training Schtz or are you in the protection business? You seam to have a great deal to say about correction so I'm interested in why you are involved in so many dogs that are in need of correction training.

I was grumping about circular discussions and look what happens!

55chevy, you are good value.

Unfortunately, you seem to be a bit masochistic. You clearly don't know any KPA graduates and you seem to have been all riled up by what is pure speculation. Just calm down. It's speculation, not fact. You apparently don't have any facts to contribute to the discussion. I'm guessing what material you have read from Karen Pryor is pretty thin on the ground because you appear to be missing pretty much every point she's ever made.

But who am I to get in the way of entertainment?

I accept that none of it is your fault. Presumably you have some kind of character trait that drives you to hijack threads to get on your soapbox and draw a big target on your chest and stir the pot. We are happy to help you achieve drive satisfaction until it all gets too much for you and you quietly disappear again. Someone remind me what phase of the moon we're in? It seems like a good place to start to map the cyclical nature of these 55chevy-esque characters that rise up periodically and go through the same visible cycles on DOL before setting again some time later. I think it would help in developing a behavioural modification plan to help them get beyond crashing other people's threads. Don't worry, I'm confident that if we find the right rewards and use them to reinforce the right trick, we can make it purely positive.

I think it's fair, how many people have been duped by these trainers with a toolbox full of clickers, treats and haltis trying to apply these methods on every dog to uphold their methodolist theories. We have had stories from SkyeGSD, the lady with the Husky named Zero, Donegal and a few more I have read here, reactive dogs being kicked out of training classes and the horror stories go on all because their methods are not adaptable to every type of dog behaviour. Bit like a mechanic saying they can do any job on a any car with a screwdriver and shifter

[55chevy]

'bedazzledx2' date='5th Dec 2010 - 02:00 AM' post='5001703']

So 55chevy, whats your involvement?...are you a behaviourist? or a trialler? or is your interest in training Schtz or are you in the protection business? You seam to have a great deal to say about correction so I'm interested in why you are involved in so many dogs that are in need of correction training.

I spent 22 years in the job, 10 years as a handler, 12 years full time training tactical service dogs with a sideline in rehabilititation of pet dogs, mainly working breeds with aggression issues.

Edited December 4, 2010 by 55chevy

[bedazzledx2]

So do you see that many pet dogs with such issues these days?

'bedazzledx2' date='5th Dec 2010 - 02:00 AM' post='5001703']

So 55chevy, whats your involvement?...are you a behaviourist? or a trialler? or is your interest in training Schtz or are you in the protection business? You seam to have a great deal to say about correction so I'm interested in why you are involved in so many dogs that are in need of correction training.

I spent 22 years in the job, 10 years as a handler, 12 years full time training tactical service dogs with a sideline in rehabilititation of pet dogs, mainly working breeds with aggression issues.

[55chevy]

So do you see that many pet dogs with such issues these days?

'bedazzledx2' date='5th Dec 2010 - 02:00 AM' post='5001703']

So 55chevy, whats your involvement?...are you a behaviourist? or a trialler? or is your interest in training Schtz or are you in the protection business? You seam to have a great deal to say about correction so I'm interested in why you are involved in so many dogs that are in need of correction training.

I spent 22 years in the job, 10 years as a handler, 12 years full time training tactical service dogs with a sideline in rehabilititation of pet dogs, mainly working breeds with aggression issues.

We have lived in Australia from the UK for 5 years and haven't worked with many pet dogs here in that time around 15/16 dogs to date with aggression issues. Around 12 of the dogs I have worked with were previously under behaviorist/trainers who in combination with the owners had made little progress in the dogs behaviour with what I saw as elementary mistakes. Training programs with food motivation used for insecure dogs that lacked food drive from nerves in public places, toy motivation for dogs low in prey drive and complex psychotic behaviour management systems with drug induction that I didn't really understand what that system was about other than tranquilising the dog to lower reactivity

Far more dog owners seek professional training in Australia than they seemed to in the UK with problem behaviours which is good thing, providing the professionals can determine the right program to suit the individual dog and owner with the primary goal to get the dog trained. From the dogs I have worked with that have been under positive motivational trainers to rehabilitate aggression issues with little improvement, the problem I found with these behaviourist/trainers is that their primary promotion of their business is heavily based on method, in other words, it's all about their systems containing no aversive methods and tools and heavily publicise why dog owners should avoid behaviourists/trainers who use aversives from a humanity angle. To me, that concept says the methodology is the priority and the dog is secondary, where I believe and practice that the dog is the priority and to use whatever it takes in methodology to improve the behaviour to a safe, managable and reliable level and in a severe case of aggression, the hope of being able to save the dogs life if in jeopardy of euthanasia.

[Kavik]

I agree Janba, what you can make a dog do with positive motivation is fantastic and is a method I use all the time, most of the time infact, but it's not the best method of teaching a dog what not to do reliably without leaning boundaries and consequences for it's actions. A properly trained dog needs a balance of both methods IMHO

What I found fascinating about the Susan Garrett seminar was exactly how she approached teaching boundaries and consequences for actions without the use of corrections. She teaches self control in the face of distractions and temptations as well as teaching the dogs to bounce back from failure in a training exercise and how to try again to give the correct response without shutting down. She emphasises giving the dog the choice to make the right or the wrong decision and each one has consequences. She has high drive dogs, and Decaf was a challenge in other ways as well.

What are the consequences of making a wrong decision in the Susan Garrett system???.

SG prefers to start the teaching of consequences and self control outside her main training area of agility. She does this with her program of Crate Games and It's Yer Choice. The dog has the choice of eg in Crate Games to stay sitting when the door is opened and so earn its release and reward and opportunity to work and earn more rewards or to try and barge through the door and get the consequence of the door being shut and so not earn its release and reward and miss the opportunity to work and earn more rewards. She teaches the dog to want to make the right choice and a lot of her training involves the control of resources. They have to earn priveleges from showing that they can make smart correct choices.

With a more difficult behavioural problem I believe she would approach the problem as a symptom of a wider problem to do with relationship, understanding and choice rather than the problem being an end in itself to fix. So she would go back to her foundation work program and go from there.

[Aidan3]

'bedazzledx2' date='5th Dec 2010 - 02:00 AM' post='5001703']

So 55chevy, whats your involvement?...are you a behaviourist? or a trialler? or is your interest in training Schtz or are you in the protection business? You seam to have a great deal to say about correction so I'm interested in why you are involved in so many dogs that are in need of correction training.

I spent 22 years in the job, 10 years as a handler, 12 years full time training tactical service dogs with a sideline in rehabilititation of pet dogs, mainly working breeds with aggression issues.

Then you won't mind telling us your real name then. You must be telling the truth because it is an offence to impersonate a police officer, even on-line.