Karen Pryor Academy In Australia

[Janba]

It's interesting to note how many people are happy to ignor the failures of methodoligist trainers and to make it clear what I am referring to, are trainers who believe that any dog can be trained without aversives successfully and who refuse to use the likes of prong collars, E collars etc or administer corrections to a dog. Much to the contrary, there are some dogs that cannot be trained successfully and reliably without aversions especially working breeds that are driven by dominance, aggression and disrespect. As I mentioned in the crate games thread, in an open mind we invited these trainers to show us how it's done and most were too scared of the dogs we presented for training to even begin.

I don't use prong or e collars(though I can see that under the supervision of a knowledgable and experienced trainer they can help) and have no intention of doing so but I do correct my dogs. I have done a lot of training with aggresive dogs and quite honestly high drive dominant working line dogs (unless the person on the other end of the lead was a testosterone driven macho he man) were not the porbroblem that the over spoilt allowed to rule the roost SWF was as the handler was most of the problem.

These courses are not necessarily aimed towards behavioural problems but about dog training and quite honestly what a good clicker trainer or similar can train a dog to do is amazing.

Just out of interest surely isn't one of the characteristics of a good working line GSD, belgium or similar the rock steady temperament?

[55chevy]

dogs that don't respond to their methods are PTS.

Are you sure of your facts there? These pet dogs who don't walk nicely on the leash get PTS? And the trainers never refer? And Karen Pryor never uses punishment under any circumstances?

From my experience of methodoligist trainers that is exactly what happens

Not so fast, you just said that "dogs that don't respond to their methods are PTS" and I asked if you were sure of your facts. Now you are making the assertion that in your experience with "methodoligist" trainers, dogs are PTS if they don't respond to whatever method they use. So this could mean any method - Koehler, for e.g

So let's be specific, have you had a specific experience with a KPA graduate who attempted to train a dog, the dog didn't respond, and the KPA graduate recommended that the dog be destroyed? I would like to know the circumstances if this really is the case. Or, if it was some other method, then let's be specific about this because this thread pertains only to the Karen Pryor Academy and what you are saying, unless you have evidence, is libel.

I don't like trainers who prioritise methods as their primary goal and sacrifice a dog to do so. Lying at my feet here is a GSD that was deemed untrainable and viscious by methodoligist trainers awaiting the long sleep, nothing a prong collar and a few good corrections didn't fix

Maybe I have a different perspective because all the dogs who come to me have been referred. I would expect any trainer incapable of solving a problem to refer to someone with proven ability to work with that sort of problem. I would imagine the KPA curriculum covers this in some detail, from what I have seen it is very thorough.

Does the KPA curriculum cover the use of prong and E collars and teach their students how to use them???, I am assuming they don't and if they don't, why not if they are promoting a curriculum for the advantages of being able to train any dog. Aversive methods will work on any dog, even the positive only trainers admit that it works and provides a good result, but they don't like it, fair enough, but their methods don't work on all dogs which is the point I am making. Being incapable of solving a problem and refusing to resolve a problem due to the appropriate tooling exceeding the systems protocol are two different things.

Anyway Aidan, you are not a purely positive trainer, you told us that in another thread, so you would understand what I am talking about in that case

[fuzzy82]

Karen Pryor does use negative punishment and negative reinforcement in small doses, but she doesn't use positive punishment. You can correct a dog without causing pain or discomfort, and aversives don't have to be painful. Being force-free and positive doesn't mean you can never punish or correct.

For my adult dog (poodle x), I can't use all positive reinforcement all the time. So I use some negative punishment, occasionally, and I also correct her by telling her a firm 'no' or 'hey!', or just grab her collar to prevent her running to the front door barking her head off. She is a very soft dog, so that is plenty of correction for her and an aversive, without being painful or uncomfortable.

For my puppy (JRT x), I sometimes use negative punishment, such as leaving him outside if he doesn't come inside when called, which he doesn't like, but 99% of the time it's all positive reinforcement, and it works really well for him.

I can't comment on the hard, working type dogs as I have no experience with them.

[Janba]

Just out of interest 55chevy have you ever read any of Karens Pryors books?

[55chevy]

It's interesting to note how many people are happy to ignor the failures of methodoligist trainers and to make it clear what I am referring to, are trainers who believe that any dog can be trained without aversives successfully and who refuse to use the likes of prong collars, E collars etc or administer corrections to a dog. Much to the contrary, there are some dogs that cannot be trained successfully and reliably without aversions especially working breeds that are driven by dominance, aggression and disrespect. As I mentioned in the crate games thread, in an open mind we invited these trainers to show us how it's done and most were too scared of the dogs we presented for training to even begin.

I don't use prong or e collars(though I can see that under the supervision of a knowledgable and experienced trainer they can help) and have no intention of doing so but I do correct my dogs. I have done a lot of training with aggresive dogs and quite honestly high drive dominant working line dogs (unless the person on the other end of the lead was a testosterone driven macho he man) were not the porbroblem that the over spoilt allowed to rule the roost SWF was as the handler was most of the problem.

These courses are not necessarily aimed towards behavioural problems but about dog training and quite honestly what a good clicker trainer or similar can train a dog to do is amazing.

Just out of interest surely isn't one of the characteristics of a good working line GSD, belgium or similar the rock steady temperament?

I agree Janba, what you can make a dog do with positive motivation is fantastic and is a method I use all the time, most of the time infact, but it's not the best method of teaching a dog what not to do reliably without leaning boundaries and consequences for it's actions. A properly trained dog needs a balance of both methods IMHO

[55chevy]

Karen Pryor does use negative punishment and negative reinforcement in small doses, but she doesn't use positive punishment. You can correct a dog without causing pain or discomfort, and aversives don't have to be painful. Being force-free and positive doesn't mean you can never punish or correct.

For my adult dog (poodle x), I can't use all positive reinforcement all the time. So I use some negative punishment, occasionally, and I also correct her by telling her a firm 'no' or 'hey!', or just grab her collar to prevent her running to the front door barking her head off. She is a very soft dog, so that is plenty of correction for her and an aversive, without being painful or uncomfortable.

For my puppy (JRT x), I sometimes use negative punishment, such as leaving him outside if he doesn't come inside when called, which he doesn't like, but 99% of the time it's all positive reinforcement, and it works really well for him.

I can't comment on the hard, working type dogs as I have no experience with them.

,

That's a good example with your Poodle X Fuzzy82 and not a whole different to a hard working dog in principal execpt it takes a harder correction to stop the behaviour. Leave a working dog outside when he doesn't like it, can often cause drive satisfaction as he tries to tear the door down to get in

[Janba]

Leave a working dog outside when he doesn't like it, can often cause drive satisfaction as he tries to tear the door down to get in

I would have thought that this was a leadership problem rather than a working dog problem

Surely one of the characteristics of a GOOD working dog is the desire to work with and obey the trainer and also a good off switch as well as on switch. A working dog, no matter what discipline, who expends energy unecessarily when not working may end up not having the energy reserves necessary when he is required to work

[55chevy]

Leave a working dog outside when he doesn't like it, can often cause drive satisfaction as he tries to tear the door down to get in

I would have thought that this was a leadership problem rather than a working dog problem

Surely one of the characteristics of a GOOD working dog is the desire to work with and obey the trainer and also a good off switch as well as on switch. A working dog, no matter what discipline, who expends energy unecessarily when not working may end up not having the energy reserves necessary when he is required to work

In a trained dog correct, but we are talking about punishing a dog that disobeyed a command to come and leaving it outside. Obviously in this scenario the dog is partially trained. If you want to talk ideal working dog characteristics, reading a breed standard and finding a compliant dog is not always an easy task. In reference to your GSD ideal, most that on the outside appear of rock solid temperament don't have enough prey drive to be disobedient or enough fighting drive to mount a serious challenge in defence. Most of the GSD's that can fulfill a protection role successfully are driven by genetic sharpness and civil aggression which is not a perfect model by breed standards and is the result of the type of dog commonly bred.

[JulesP]

Who are these 'methodoligist' trainers you keep banging on about 55chevy?

I wouldn't expect KP to teach me about e collars she is a clicker training specialist. I wouldn't expect SG to teach me about a prong collar she is an agility specialist. I wouldn't go and see k9Pro for agility lessons!

[55chevy]

Just out of interest 55chevy have you ever read any of Karens Pryors books?

Yes I have, very good for training a learning phase, a good trick training program, but lacking in her systems IMHO is a correction phase with more tricks trained to avoid applying corrections from the articles I have read.

[55chevy]

Who are these 'methodoligist' trainers you keep banging on about 55chevy?

I wouldn't expect KP to teach me about e collars she is a clicker training specialist. I wouldn't expect SG to teach me about a prong collar she is an agility specialist. I wouldn't go and see k9Pro for agility lessons!

That's fine if they stick to their niches of expertise, but the problem is based on their niche experience, they think they can train any dog for any purpose in the same methods limiting their overall training ability. Family pets are the dog category that needs the widest range of training methods available as they come in all varieties of temperaments, traits and dispositions IMHO

[Aidan3]

Why were they scared of the dogs???, because they wouldn't use aversives to control the dog if it came back up the leash, they would be attacked, if they did use an aversive do dominate the dog their methods went out the window. A clicker and treat will not stop a handler aggressive dog re-direct back up the leash and they know that

What has this got to do with the Karen Pryor Academy? Their professional model isn't built around working protection breeds. One training organisation that teaches a particular set of skills doesn't eliminate a diversity of other skills.

As it happens I know a lot of KPA graduates. As any reasonable person would expect, there is a diversity among them. Some of them can and do work with extreme dogs. A surprising number own them and compete in Schutzhund. I'm not a KPA graduate (although it's no secret that Karen Pryor and I have a professional relationship), and I work with these dogs too. Although I do use aversives, I have never done anything with an aggressive dog in the course of treating it's aggression that a KPA wouldn't be allowed to do.

Underlying all the stories you have a passion for dogs, but you keep believing your own stories. I think you need to step back and take stock of reality. If you know any actual KPA graduates and you know a real story that actually happened, that is evidence. If you have to make it up or make broad generalisations, then it is fiction.

[Kavik]

I agree Janba, what you can make a dog do with positive motivation is fantastic and is a method I use all the time, most of the time infact, but it's not the best method of teaching a dog what not to do reliably without leaning boundaries and consequences for it's actions. A properly trained dog needs a balance of both methods IMHO

What I found fascinating about the Susan Garrett seminar was exactly how she approached teaching boundaries and consequences for actions without the use of corrections. She teaches self control in the face of distractions and temptations as well as teaching the dogs to bounce back from failure in a training exercise and how to try again to give the correct response without shutting down. She emphasises giving the dog the choice to make the right or the wrong decision and each one has consequences. She has high drive dogs, and Decaf was a challenge in other ways as well.

[Staranais]

So let's be specific, have you had a specific experience with a KPA graduate who attempted to train a dog, the dog didn't respond, and the KPA graduate recommended that the dog be destroyed? I would like to know the circumstances if this really is the case. Or, if it was some other method, then let's be specific about this because this thread pertains only to the Karen Pryor Academy and what you are saying, unless you have evidence, is libel.

I would like to know this too, please.

[Kavik]

In addition to my last comment.

I obviously think the SG program for teaching self control and consequences is a great idea, and very useful in a performance dog as well as a pet. It does require dedication, time, patience and a good understanding of dog training principles and much of it is done as foundation work exercises and some requires the control of the environment and use of the crate. I think it is a great program to promote to owners who wish to take things further with their dogs and to start them with a good foundation for further training and who wish to train without the use of corrections.

For those seeking help with serious behavioural problems, possibly because they haven't set the groundwork/done good foundation work for the relationship with their dog, they are likely not to have the time, patience or skills necessary to successfully utilise a program such as the one SG promotes. They often require results quickly, and sometimes the behaviour the dog displays is dangerous and if not fixed could lead to damage or the dog being PTS. This is where I think you need to be open in your approach to a problem.

ETA: for the example given of the dog coming up leash. I don't think any good positive trainer would attempt to fix such a dog straight away like that in front of an audience. That is very confrontational training, and more likely a positive trainer would go back to basics and teaching respect of handler/self control in a manner and environment that is not as confrontational and where the dog is not going to be able to try to physically take on the handler. I actually think something like crate games or TOT would work quite well as a starting point for this. I don't think such a trainer would ever get such a problem in their own dog as they would have done good foundation work to produce a good relationship in the first place.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Kavik

[Erny]

I wouldn't go and see k9Pro for agility lessons!

Hey why not?!!! Have you not ever seen him scaling an A-Frame on full height?

lol

[RallyValley]

Seriously sick of these threads being overrun. No I do not want to read through 5 pages of one poster disagreeing that positive training is wrong because 'the dog might come up the leash'. MOST people don't have dogs like that! I am not saying e-collars and prong collars don't have a place, they do, but it is not inside an agility or obedience ring and definitely not for the average pet owner.... and who would KP method's be aimed at?

Please make a thread for ring sports, or ecollars or prong collars or whatever turns you on and quit invading other threads, it's gotten to the point where I swear you search the forum every day for the word 'positive' and jump on that thread to berate everyone with the same antidote and the same 2 or 3 unproven facts over and over. You are not winning anyone over and only making an ass of yourself and a mockery of these methods. Fanatics like you are why some people are so close minded about positive punishment methods.

[Staranais]

Seriously sick of these threads being overrun. No I do not want to read through 5 pages of one poster disagreeing that positive training is wrong because 'the dog might come up the leash'. MOST people don't have dogs like that!

Agree. Even us people that do use correction collars like to read & learn about other methods without the thread being derailed into the same old pointless positive only vs correction collars debate. It's getting pretty old.

ETA: It sounds like you have some expertise in different training methods, so why not start a thread of your own to describe & discuss them? I would be interested in reading about your experiences & thoughts - just not when they're derailing a thread about something completely different.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Staranais

[huski]

I wouldn't go and see k9Pro for agility lessons!

Hey why not?!!! Have you not ever seen him scaling an A-Frame on full height?

lol

Hehehe.... funny visual Erny... :D :D

[Staranais]

I wouldn't go and see k9Pro for agility lessons!

Hey why not?!!! Have you not ever seen him scaling an A-Frame on full height?

lol

Hehehe.... funny visual Erny... :D :D

Watch out Erny, he might come up the leash at you! ;)