Dog Cries During Training Sessions

[Rileys mum]

I am just wondering if this is a normal type of behaviour?

I do alot of shaping excercises with my 11 month old dog. Recently I have noticed a trend in that when I begin something new he starts crying and fretting. I keep things 100% positive and wait patiently until he works out what I'm after ( which may even just be a nose touch on an object at the beginning stages) he will stop whining once he gets praised with a click and treat and will happily do that for ages but then will begin crying again when I try to stretch it to say a paw on the object.

Is this whining just frustration and anxiousness because he is working out what I want?? He's fit and healthy in every respect.

[wuffles]

Yes, I would say it's frustration. Ava sometimes whinges during shaping and it's generally when I am expecting a bit too much from her, so I tend to stop and do a few known commands so that she regains confidence. Then no more of the stressful activity until another session (which is hard for me sometimes but I think it's best for her ).

I'm shaping a dumbell retrieve at the moment which is a very, very slow process and a few times she has started whinging and chucking the dumbell in the air. I take that as my cue to stop

Edit: In saying this, sometimes I do push her slightly as when she whinges it means she starts trying all kinds of crazy stuff and sometimes gets it right. If she's obviously not getting anywhere though, that's when I stop.

Edited December 1, 2010 by wuffles

[The Spotted Devil]

If it's frustration, have you tried just free shaping? Just click and treat for ANY interaction with a new object - I find it gets them to relax and enjoy the process of trying new things. Also, are you asking for too much too soon and not rewarding very tiny incremental steps?

[Rileys mum]

Hi, thanks for the replies. Yeah I do alot of free shaping and do reward small interactions in a hugely positive way ( click, big fun praise and treat) as I said, once he recognizes what I'm after he's happy and will do it over and over happily. It's just when I stop the praise of that small response to see if he will offer something more that I get the cries.

I just wanted to see if this was something some dogs do.... Vocally expressing their frustration

[The Spotted Devil]

What I often do is click and treat with one biscuit for each response and then jackpot with a handful when he takes the next step. Once he has the next step I revert to one biscuit for each response and jackpot when he pushes the boundary again.

Also, I would keep it simple and calm with click/treat rather than lots of praise after each click. I find it helps mine concentrate on the job at hand and I save the praise and game for when we have finished the session.

[Nekhbet]

are you maybe moving too fast for him?

[Rileys mum]

I don't think so. I'm very aware of not pushing him too much. An example of today's session. I'm working on having him step into a box ( ground level 'box' made of a 1m by 1 m of PVC pipe). I have been happily getting two front feet in but today was looking for one hind in and was met with cries initially. I'm just seeing what he offers me and praising any advancement on out two fronts in. He offered me both hinds In today and stopped crying when he got what I wanted so I really do feel it's just him vocalising 'shit, I'm doing the two fronts why isn't that enough today?'

He is the type of dog that easily looses confidence so I think u guys are right about making sure I keep sessions short and not push too much

I try to keep things fun and motivating for him which is why I was alittle worried

Cheers guys

[The Spotted Devil]

And at 11 months old, some dogs are very mature whilst others are not. I seem to have one of each here.....new pup is 15 weeks and I can ask for more of her at this young age than I can with my Dalmatian now. And he's 4!

[megan_]

I'd try two things.

Reward for him doing anything during the training session - it teaches him to try new things (the aim of shaping) and helps build confidence. If he farts, click and treat .

Secondly, he might be a bit nervous and excited at the same time? My girl can get like that. Maybe try to make your rewards happy but calm. No big fuss. Just a click, treat and a smile, maybe with a soft "good boy" thrown in. Nothing too stimulating.

How short are your short sessions? To me, 1 minute is a short session! I only do about 3 mins absolute max.

[Rileys mum]

Very true. He is still quite immature I think and as I said, is the type to loose his confidence quickly. He tries his heart out but I think I need to maybe cut down my sessions. I have been generally doing around 5 min sessions so perhaps that's too long. I'll cut it to 1 min sessions a few times a day and see how we go too. The last thing I want is him distressed

I had wondered if it was an excited cry too. I'll try calmly treating him. I hadn't thought about it but maybe my excited demeanour When I'm praising him is slightly distressing him.

Thanks again guys.

[corvus]

Not all dogs have it in them to love free-shaping. My older boy gets very anxious about doing things he hasn't been rewarded for, despite the fact we did heaps of free-shaping when he was a puppy and I have never so much as scolded him in training. I started target training with him and he likes that much better. We have hip targets, paw targets and nose target down and are working on duration and two targets at once. I find that if I drop his reward rate even a little he starts whining and his performance spirals down and it's hard to recover in that session. He gets frustrated if he doesn't just instantly know what to do. Shaping for him has to be very easy and very small steps. His confidence is boosted by knowing what he has to do. If he knows it, he is happy. So training new things is hard because obviously he doesn't know it and doesn't love the learning process the way my other dog does.

I would say first make sure your reward rate is as high as you can make it, the changes in criteria as small as you can make them, and your training sessions short. If he's still whining and you don't see much variation in the whining that can tell you when he's happy and when he's not, consider that maybe he's one of those dogs that just doesn't love it.

Incidentally, my whiner is much more prone to it when he's excited. Sometimes I use that excitement level for lots of quick and easy repetitions and just throw in something marginally more difficult here and there.

[Rileys mum]

That's interesting. I don't know a huge amnt about target training. I'll do some research.

[rastus_froggy]

Also look at the possibility that your pup may now be thinking that you are rewarding it for crying. If he is crying and moving about and then gets to the position you want him in he may not actually realise that he is being rewarded for, it is possible that he hasn't even realised what he has done.

[Vickie]

Are you trying to shape two or more things in the same session?

For instance, if you shape/ask for a nose touch & then switch it to a paw touch, it may be too much for him at this point.

It might be better to do the nose in one session & the paw in another. Then when you have them both on cue, you can switch without frustration. Or pick 2 behaviours in one session that are totally different.

I think you do need a certain amount of frustration in shaping, it's what motivates them to try new things.

Trim often whines, in shaping, in anticipation of agility training & trials and sheep. I guess it's a kind of stress, but a good stress & one of the things I love so much about her

Edited December 1, 2010 by Vickie

[kathq]

He's a GSP isnt he Rileys mum? They can be a very vocal breed remember. My girls talk quite often whilst training.

[Rileys mum]

Thanks guys. Yeah I always aim at just one progression every session or several sessions. He still has his tail up and wagging so I don't think he's completely distraught. Just something I'll keep an eye on with him.

[TerraNik]

My girl whines when we are shaping... Often when she's got confused or frustrated. Now that she's more mature and has some experience her whining is minimal as she's learned to work through the moments when she isn't going so well.

[W Sibs]

You guys got whingers... I get a squeaker

Charlie will squeak in training if he gets frustrated... he moves and breaks to quickly, that when I put him in position again, he gets frustrated and lets me know by squeaking. Doesn't happen as much now, but happened a fair bit when he was a pup.

Edited December 2, 2010 by CW EW

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I've got a barker.

One of my fellow students tried "it's yer choice" at seminar, when SG was there but before she had started. She hates barking...

So my dog barks - we end session - all chance of reward gone at that point. Dog has got the message that if she starts barking without being asked, the game is going to be over, I'm going to pack up the treats and tugs and end the session. She still chats a bit, I don't mind that.

You need to be really careful not to (seem to) reward the noise if you don't want noise. If the dog is doing it more than once, I think the dog thinks "crying" is what it takes to get the job done. Of course you can click and treat the crying... I did that with my dog's barking, added a cue "what you say?" and she talks, and as I click/yes/treat the first noise I hear, now she only makes just enough noise to get the treat. Ie it shuts her up.

And time how long it takes for the crying to start and plan to end before that time is up for the next few sessions, or have a "balance break" before the crying usually starts...

Five minutes without a "balance break" might be too long for a young dog. A balance break is a quick game of tug or play to get the dog focussed and interested again. However if the dog is paying attention and trying stuff, then you might be able to go a bit longer to allow the dog to find the new behaviour you want. Sometimes it is good to reward every new thing, until you get a step in the right direction then reward only that - when you get three (maybe a few more for a GSP) of what you want, up the criteria for another step in the right direction.

I'm still avoiding starting the ruff love program with my dog. I guess I can finish reading "shaping success" and make a plan of how I want my dog to be (good stays, recalls, and less annoying behaviours) so I can measure any progress. Not looking forward to "record keeping" either but I guess I will have to get over that. Might have to invest in a pocket cricket scorer to count for me though. I can count treats but they're gooey.

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