The Secret Life Of Dogs

[Hetzer]

The more humans learn about animal cognition, the more they should realise that they're not that special or separate from other animals on the planet. I saw a documentary about crows recently too that really blew me away regarding their cognitive, problem-solving, emotional and social capabilities.

I love that Border Collie with the huge vocabulary in the documentary - super!

PS - found a wikipedia entry about this Border Collie: Betsy

Edited December 1, 2010 by Hetzer

[Darien]

Brilliant show, I enjoyed it. Of course it was a Border Collie that was the smartest

[shortstep]

Taken from the link above about Betsy

the Border Collie was found to be the most intelligent breed of dog by psychology professor Stanley Coren in his book The Intelligence of Dogs.[8] Juliane Kaminski, a cognitive psychologist who tested Betsy, hypothesised that her abilities are the result of the use of the Border Collie breed as working dogs, their high motivation levels and that they historically had to pay close attention to their owners' commands when engaged in herding.[6]

Maybe they should spend some time with border collies that work sheep for a living and their owners.

One ability they might pick up is the ablity to notice even the slightest difference in sheep (or anything else that takes their attention). For example, an ear flick to the left on one sheep in a flock of 30 with get a reaction from the working dog. This ability see the slightest changes is how they 'seem' to anticipate and thereby prevent stock from moving off in the wrong direction before they actually attempt to do so. Most of this is done and the average human can not even see it happening. It takes an an experienced sheepdog handler to point out the things that the dog is reacting too. This ability when talking about a sheepdog would be said "that dog reads his sheep well" and is something that is bred for. A dog that does not read his sheep well needs a lot more direction from their handler and is therefore more trouble to work for the handler. Also a dog that does not read his sheep well will not be very usefull when working away from the handler, as the dog has to then make his own descions as the handler is too far away to see anything except the more gross movements of the flock. This would result in sheep being brought in a sloppy mannor by the dog that cannot read his sheep well.

I am very sure this ability to see tiny differences would help the border collie know the difference between all the different types of objects they had laid out for it to pick from, as well as being about to use the picture to select the object. It would also apply to them being able to hear the different name sounds of each objecty and remember the different sounds to the different objects. Once the dog understood the job (or game in this case) find the object that looks like this (show object or say the name) then over a 150 years of selective breeding for dogs that notice even the slightest differences would kick in and the dog should have the ablity to pick out that object from all the other choices.

Edited December 1, 2010 by shortstep

[Polecatty]

I loved that doco! Of course we humans can pick the dogs different barks and the dogs follow our pointing fingers or pick up on the slightest cue such as the movement of an eye.

The silver foxes were interesting. What was the go with them being on wire cages off the ground though. All I thought of was aww their poor feet

Elevated wire cages under open sheds is fur farm industry standard. Makes it easy to keep a lot of animals in a relatively small area and keep it relatively clean. The plain wire cages are called furring cages and adult and weaned animals are kept in these. When the animals have young they are kept in whelping cages, which have an enclosed, ajoined box for security/privacy.

Bisart Dobes- foxes are still raised and bred that way, both for that breeding program and on fox fur farms. Mink, also.

[asal]

hey heres the link

for those who missed it, gee the bit about our faces was a bit astonishing, which eye do u loot at? left or right? never even had given it a thought till this?

n yep u have to wait till the add finishes. before the program starts....

http://player.sbs.com.au/programs#/program...he-Dog-Full-Ep/

[asal]

Taken from the link above about Betsy

the Border Collie was found to be the most intelligent breed of dog by psychology professor Stanley Coren in his book The Intelligence of Dogs.[8] Juliane Kaminski, a cognitive psychologist who tested Betsy, hypothesised that her abilities are the result of the use of the Border Collie breed as working dogs, their high motivation levels and that they historically had to pay close attention to their owners' commands when engaged in herding.[6]

Maybe they should spend some time with border collies that work sheep for a living and their owners.

One ability they might pick up is the ablity to notice even the slightest difference in sheep (or anything else that takes their attention). For example, an ear flick to the left on one sheep in a flock of 30 with get a reaction from the working dog. This ability see the slightest changes is how they 'seem' to anticipate and thereby prevent stock from moving off in the wrong direction before they actually attempt to do so. Most of this is done and the average human can not even see it happening. It takes an an experienced sheepdog handler to point out the things that the dog is reacting too. This ability when talking about a sheepdog would be said "that dog reads his sheep well" and is something that is bred for. A dog that does not read his sheep well needs a lot more direction from their handler and is therefore more trouble to work for the handler. Also a dog that does not read his sheep well will not be very usefull when working away from the handler, as the dog has to then make his own descions as the handler is too far away to see anything except the more gross movements of the flock. This would result in sheep being brought in a sloppy mannor by the dog that cannot read his sheep well.

I am very sure this ability to see tiny differences would help the border collie know the difference between all the different types of objects they had laid out for it to pick from, as well as being about to use the picture to select the object. It would also apply to them being able to hear the different name sounds of each objecty and remember the different sounds to the different objects. Once the dog understood the job (or game in this case) find the object that looks like this (show object or say the name) then over a 150 years of selective breeding for dogs that notice even the slightest differences would kick in and the dog should have the ablity to pick out that object from all the other choices.

dont forget the kelpie.

still remember a friends story.

he had a sick filly. had put her in the house paddock seperate from the mob. she was in the far corner and the main mob on the other side of the fence keeping her company.

he sent his kelpie to go get her into the yard to medicate.

she flatly refused to leave the tree and her mates on the other side of the fence.

dog looked to him for direction,,,he? rolling with laughter at the dogs discomforture..

so what does his dog do?

jumped the fence, moved the mob down towards the stockyards n filly followed along the fence. pushed the mob along the edge of the stockyards and filly went in the gate to stay with them. dog jumped the fence and stood in the gateway. head over his shoulder as if to say.... "now get your sorry butt over here and shut the #### gate man!"

[asal]

come to think of it. its not just herding dogs that think for themselves

.

neighbours had a filly and a gelding by a stockhorse at oberon.

went to visit their breeder to show off their champion ribbons.

he was comming in with a mob of cattle.. n rode over to the fence to talk to them as the cattle went into the yards. wasnt watching the cattle but his mount obviously was.

suddenly his horse took off so fast he was left in midair to land in a heap.

his horse?

flat gallop to the yards to block the cattle which had decided to come back out the still open gate. horsie, blocked em.. n stood in the gate.. pointedly looking back at the fallen rider...

with "hey get here and shut the gate? i cant do it all by myself"

apparently he had also finished yarding the cattle and would wait at the gate if his rider came off during the muster.... rider had a tendency to go out bareback n halter so if things got hairy he occasionally did come off. n his horse didnt bother waiting for him, if the cattle were moving fast.

[dogbesotted]

i have observed LGDs for some years now.. and they are incredibly smart and aware of the smallest changes in their environment. Sadly because they are not the most malleable or obedient of breeds many see them as ignorant or slow nothiong could be further from the truth.

I have had maremma call me when a doe or ewe is having trouble lambing, calling to let me know that something ""really bad"" is happening and extra assistanbce is needed.. they are amazing

helen

[labsrule]

Very interesting doco and that border collie was AMAZINGINGLY CLEVER and very interesting experiment about those wolf pups being raised in a human environment.

Only thing was though that the plight of those poor foxes saddened me with rows and rows and rows of those sheds containing elevated cages that the poor things were in and they had been doing this type of study for 50 yrs so one can just imagine how many thousands of foxes had been subjected to that cruel housing and captivity and I am sure we can all surmise what inevitably happened to them. ;) Felt very saddened for the tame ones that they were breeding essentially as pets as they were very affectionate with the humans and whilst some of them were housed with humans as part of the study and possibly beyond, I bet the majority of them spent their pitiful life in those horrible cages :p

To me personally the plight of those poor foxes overshadowed the doco as I can't get the picture out of my head of all of the rows and rows and rows of those large sheds containing so many foxes held captive in those awful cages ;)

[griff]

Fab program , I enjoyed watching it

[toshman]

To me personally the plight of those poor foxes overshadowed the doco as I can't get the picture out of my head of all of the rows and rows and rows of those large sheds containing so many foxes held captive in those awful cages

X2, Labsrule - I found that quite awful! And I got the feeling watching that Russian (?) lady hugging the supposedly 'tame' fox that it was very nervous at her touch.....lots of lip-licking, etc.

[Mollie10]

To me personally the plight of those poor foxes overshadowed the doco as I can't get the picture out of my head of all of the rows and rows and rows of those large sheds containing so many foxes held captive in those awful cages

X2, Labsrule - I found that quite awful! And I got the feeling watching that Russian (?) lady hugging the supposedly 'tame' fox that it was very nervous at her touch.....lots of lip-licking, etc.

A lot of the foxes are sold off as fur to help continue to fund the study, while the 'tame' foxes are sold as pets. The study was originally conducted in Soviet Russia. When we were in Estonia we saw the conditions that the soviet Russians kept animals in (even though the Estonian government is obviously working hard to improve the animals conditions). We were so close to a tiger that we could have reached out and touched it.

It is just a different mindset. It needs changing of course, but change comes slowly.

I thought the documentary was amazing!

[Loving my Oldies]

That breeding program was done in the late 60's early 70's from memory - stand to be corrected. And they were wild animals to start with until they went through several generations of careful selection. I guess that humans have developed in our ability to care for and have empathy for animals over that time. There is a full documentary of that alone which I have seen several times - think I may have it on video tape - thats how old it is . . .

It was started then Bisart Dobes and still goes on - at least that's how I interpreted it. The voice over talked about the program going for over 50 years, I think.

I will go back to the link posted and watch again (at least the parts I can bear to).

Edited December 2, 2010 by Mother Moocher

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I feel a tiny bit guilty every time I eat pork products - because pigs are so intelligent and interested in life. Sigh.

Even fish have intelligence. Goldfish do have memories that last longer than three seconds. Even if it is from classical conditioning (pick up the food).

[koalathebear]

Only thing was though that the plight of those poor foxes saddened me with rows and rows and rows of those sheds containing elevated cages that the poor things were in and they had been doing this type of study for 50 yrs so one can just imagine how many thousands of foxes had been subjected to that cruel housing and captivity and I am sure we can all surmise what inevitably happened to them. Felt very saddened for the tame ones that they were breeding essentially as pets as they were very affectionate with the humans and whilst some of them were housed with humans as part of the study and possibly beyond, I bet the majority of them spent their pitiful life in those horrible cages

I know! I found the documentary really interesting but was a bit horrified by the foxes. As you say, I felt bad for the foxes that had bred to be tame and be affectionate with humans but were trapped in those cages and probably put down once their research use was done.

I felt equally horrified about the foxes that had been bred to be aggressive – the scientist was all dramatic and saying: "This is not a fox, this is a dragon!" but I was thinking – the creature's probably frustrated/terrified and miserable being trapped in that cage its whole life. Also, their experiments of putting aggressive cubs with a tame mother to raise and tame cubs with an aggressive mother to raise sounded doomed to end in unhappiness I thought that the experiment was fascinating but it was difficult seeing those animals in that condition.

Other than that, the documentary was quite thought-provoking. I haven't figured out if my dogs look left yet but they certainly understand pointing and will follow eye motions and head jerks. I've known before that dogs were 99% genetically the same as wolves but was quite interested by the fox breeding programme which bred towards tameness which then led to physical traits following tameness i.e. the traits we associate with 'cuteness'. I was a bit startled by the revelation that by breeding towards tameness, the dog is actually a juvenile wolf i.e. humans have artificially kept the dog at a juvenile stage of development. The example the woman raising the wolf cub was interesting but I wasn't sure how much could be generalised given that it was just one wolf and one situation – presumably there have been situations where wolves have behaved in a dog-like manner and been able to be quasi-tame?

[Mason_Gibbs]

To me personally the plight of those poor foxes overshadowed the doco as I can't get the picture out of my head of all of the rows and rows and rows of those large sheds containing so many foxes held captive in those awful cages

X2, Labsrule - I found that quite awful! And I got the feeling watching that Russian (?) lady hugging the supposedly 'tame' fox that it was very nervous at her touch.....lots of lip-licking, etc.

I also felt so sorry for the poor foxes

[tarope]

What a great show especially where they took two 5wk old wolf cubs and tried to raised them with humans as you would a domestic dog.

Only to find that no matter what they did, the wolves started to act like wolves and not domestic dogs and had to return them to the wolf pack as they were after all wild animals. So much for the saying "dogs are wolves in sheep's clothing".

The wolf did not react to pointing or eye movement like domestic dogs did, so why do some people compare our dogs to wild wolves when clearly they are not the same and have nothing in common. I love it when vets say "In the wild dogs do this and that", just goes to show how little vets know about our dogs.

[felix]

\The wolf did not react to pointing or eye movement like domestic dogs did, so why do some people compare our dogs to wild wolves when clearly they are not the same and have nothing in common. I love it when vets say "In the wild dogs do this and that", just goes to show how little vets know about our dogs.

People did, do and will compare dogs to wolves simply because they are the same species. That's is definitely something in common IMO.

[Erny]

... why do some people compare our dogs to wild wolves when clearly they are not the same and have nothing in common. I love it when vets say "In the wild dogs do this and that", just goes to show how little vets know about our dogs.

Who said they don't have anything in common? IMO there is nothing wrong with comparing provided it is acknowledged that there can be and is often variations in the "wild -vs- domestic" comparison.

The good thing too about using dogs in the wild as examples/analogies, is that it puts the dogs in the people's minds in the absence of human influence and/or anthropomorphic suggestion. People can often better understand about "dogs being dogs" when they can remove that human element and that is sometimes or even often a good thing.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Erny

[whiskedaway]

I just watched it then (taped it on IQ) and it was so good. Very interesting how they might be able to tell which genes cause diseases thanks to the dog gene pool being a lot smaller.