Dog Behaviourist?

[Staranais]

My gripe was that I mentioned prong collars and E collars to all 3 after doing my own research and they all spewed over it saying they were cruel training tools and it would agitate his aggression and make him worse, so I am trying what they told me clicker in one hand, treat bag which worked when no dogs were present, but if he saw a dog, he would ignore everything.

That's a fair enough gripe, I think. I have a similar story - my last dog was a very (very) DA stafford, and like you I consulted some absolutely useless positive-only behaviourists & trainers that didn't help us one little bit. However, I also paid for a consult with a more traditional style trainer (a behaviourist/trainer who was very heavy handed with the choke chain & prong collar, and who "didn't believe" in clicker training) and she didn't help us at all either.

So, although I personally prefer to consult with someone who knows how to use lots of tools properly, I think the problem is more about how to identify someone who knows what they're doing, rather than just picking someone who is happy to use correction collars. At the end of the day I'd far rather consult with a good positive trainer/behaviourist, than a crappy trainer that uses correction collars, if those are the only two choices available to me.

And IMO someone who thinks every dog needs a prong collar or check chain is just as close minded as someone who thinks no dog should have one. If I went to a training session and someone slapped a correction collar on my malinois girl without looking at what she could already do or getting to know her, I'd run a mile.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Staranais

[Nekhbet]

if people are not happy with their session they have to SAY something. If you do not agree with what is happening simply say 'thanks I dont think this is for us' and finish there.

I hear too much from people that have not been happy yet still paid the trainer/behaviourist for their rather shocking advice they were not happy with. I actively encourage clients to tell me they're not happy - I dont like people saying ' ahh yeah ok' then I leave and they dont like what I said, hence do not follow directions and hence no improvement. That is not productive for yourself or the dog

[Cosmolo]

Thats a good point Nekhbet- most people don't give negative feedback even if that is how they feel. I have had a friend of mine recently go to a large number of puppy school classes with her great dane pup and some of the things she has been told (and thankfully ignored) make my hair stand on end. When one trainer was questioned about the advice with client asking how that will work when the dog is 70kg- she was told that the trainer doesn't deal with large breed adult dogs..

[corvus]

I gave negative feedback to a trainer once and she blew her top and accused me of being cruel to my dogs. It was extremely unpleasant. I had been very polite about it and she still chewed my ear off for daring to be unhappy. Apparently she was the expert and I should not question her. Eventually I managed to piece her back together and she tearfully apologised and I quietly made sure I would never cross paths with her again. I don't think I'd ever bother again. I've given positive feedback, but I'll give my negative feedback with my feet.

[Staranais]

I'd admit that I am pretty bad at giving negative feedback, especially to someone who sets themselves up as an "expert", although I am much better at it now than I have been in the past.

It's not unique to the dog training industry, I think it's the same as people going to the vet, or any other type of service industry - many people won't tell you to your face that they're unhappy with your service, since you're the "expert" and are supposed to know what you're doing, and they don't feel they're qualified to argue with you. They just vote with their feet, and go to another provider next time.

Of course, the behaviourist also has to welcome negative feedback, which can be quite hard for a person to do. On the few occasions I've told a trainer I didn't like what was happening, or that I hadn't had any success with the methods, I have not always gotten a particularly helpful response, or even a particularly polite one...

[Cosmolo]

How a service or product provider resolves a query/ complaint is a massive indication to me of the professionalism etc about that business. No matter how good someone is, at some point there will be an issue that needs resolution. Thats when you see qualities that you don't get to see when everything runs smoothly.

I ordered sashes for an event recently and received one with incorrect spelling- their error rather than mine. When i let them know, they promptly and without question did another one and sent it express post- now thats impressive and despite the 'mistake'- i will absolutely use them again.

[Staranais]

How a service or product provider resolves a query/ complaint is a massive indication to me of the professionalism etc about that business.

Agree 100%.

I think it also can reflect the level of knowledge and experience of the behaviourist. My problems seem to have been with behaviourists that only have one or a few tools in the toolbox, & if their favoured tool or method doesn't work, they can get a bit aggressive or upset or just blame the owner or the dog for the failure, rather than problem-shooting or suggesting other techniques or methods to try. This is just my experience, however.

To be frank, I'm quite a shy person in real life, so if I say something hasn't worked & the behaviourist responds by getting stroppy, I'm liable to simply take my business elsewhere. I'm sure many other clients would feel similarly.

[Quickasyoucan]

For people who say why not just go to a trainer rather than a behaviourist, there is no regulation of trainers either so that argument is moot. I could pop down the road buy myself a franchise and call myself a trainer or a behaviourist, so long as I had the money, make up some references, flashy website and there I go.

I come from an academic background, but I don't necessarily think that just having academic qualifications makes you a good behaviourist any more than it makes someone a good vet or a good doctor. I have come across examples of both of the latter who didn't seem to know their rear end from their elbow and made me shudder to think of people and animal's lives in their hands.

Not that I don't think formal training is important, so long as it doesn't make someone to regimented in one way of thinking. It is just that I don't think it is the be all and end all, there has to be some natural ability both with animals and humans beyond that. Practical experience also goes a long way.

That is why I think personal recommendations (for everything tradies, doctors, vets, behaviourists) are important.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[Greytmate]

But because people are using the name "behaviourist" it implies that they are qualified and therefore a step above dog trainers and this is obviously false. I agree that not everyone wants or needs a dog that can heel, sit, drop and stay with the precision required in the obedience ring but these are basic excercises that all dogs should learn to some degree whether it be in a class situation or one-on-one with a trainer. What a lot of people want to hear on these forums is advice from people who have encountered the same problems and how they have faired or solved them. Not a curt "seek the help of a behaviourist".

The curt "seek the help of a behaviourist" is usually given when dog aggression is the problem.

It can be very dangerous to try to solve an aggression problem by taking advice from people on a public forum.

That's just a cop out half the time as aggression is not always a poor or unpredictable behaviour or a problem with the dog's temperament or character at all. Aggression is often only a behaviour deemed a serious issue on the basis of socitey protocol. People often buy a GSD or working breed for their protective instinct and good examples of these breeds should have the genetics for territorial aggression in the back yard and most like to think if someone came over the back fence the dog will defend it's property and a good dog will. Take the same dog out in the street, he/she doesn't know where the fence line ends, sees the bloke across the road and fires up on the end of the leash, then automatically the dog has an aggression issue and needs a behaviourist which is nonesense. The dog needs to learn when to aggress and when not to which can be easily achieved by competent training.

With breed experience and providing the owner can describe particular behaviours and reactions, you can easily provide a training guide or something to try and from a danger perspective, you can always use a muzzle in the process to keep everything safe. This standard answer to get a behaviourist does more harm than good half the time. There would be more experienced people here if dog owners did regularly discuss their problems openly who would have better practical solutions than half the behaviourists all put together IMHO. I have seen so many behaviourists assess the same dog and all have a different answer and approach anyway

How in earth is that a cop out. Someone coming to a public forum to ask for help on aggression does not have the skill to deal with it themselves and nor do the majority of people on a forum.

An experienced Behaviourist should be sought to help them.

Whether or not aggression in canines is 'normal' is irrelevant because we have dogs live in domestication and aggression within the family is not accepted.

However, you're more than welcome to say "Canine Aggression is normal" when a dog bites a child or nearly kills a dog it lives with.

You can also be the liable one when your huge amount of breed experience stops someone from contacting a professional and the dog goes on to do more damage.

The point is Sas, there is no formal behaviourist profession, so what are we are really telling people to do, is seek a person who's titled themselves as a behaviourist and the problem is solved. If they happen to take that advice and get an idiot as a behaviourist and the dog does bite someone, that makes it ok then???

55Chevy, I don't believe that it is appropriate to diagnose and treat aggression problem over the internet.

It isn't appropriate for me, because I do not want to take responsibility for giving advice that I cannot ensure has been understood or applied properly.

So yes, in that respect it is a cop out.

I don't know it is possible to safely diagnose and treat aggression with a theoretical dog that has been described on the Internet. Dog behaviourists look at dog behaviour, not just listen to owner problems. And then there will be other people reading that may decide to try the advice on their own dog, with disastrous results.

If people have an aggressive dog that they are unable to control, and they are unwilling or unable to get professional help, I would advise they euthanise the dog.

I realise that not all trainers and behaviourist are qualified, but they all still have take on responsibility for what they do and say. I would be happy to find a good behaviourist for anyone in Australia that needed one. But usually there are good recommendations given here, so I don't need to.

[Donegal]

if people are not happy with their session they have to SAY something. If you do not agree with what is happening simply say 'thanks I dont think this is for us' and finish there.

I hear too much from people that have not been happy yet still paid the trainer/behaviourist for their rather shocking advice they were not happy with. I actively encourage clients to tell me they're not happy - I dont like people saying ' ahh yeah ok' then I leave and they dont like what I said, hence do not follow directions and hence no improvement. That is not productive for yourself or the dog

I did complain that what we were doing wasn't really helping, but they told me we had to get this bit right and it takes time and blamed the severity of the situation on me for not hiring a behaviourist early enough and allowing my dogs behaviour to escalate. Ok, I don't know and I can't really argue about it, I have hired a behaviourist because I don't know how to deal with the problem and I thought my role is best to shut up and listen and trust that they know what they are talking about, even though they were idiots in the end, I didn't know that either.

Nekhbet, I agree with your thoughts on this, but when they bulldust to you, you can't really argue as the inexperienced party against a supposed professional and you take their advice as being correct

[Donegal]

Thats a good point Nekhbet- most people don't give negative feedback even if that is how they feel. I have had a friend of mine recently go to a large number of puppy school classes with her great dane pup and some of the things she has been told (and thankfully ignored) make my hair stand on end. When one trainer was questioned about the advice with client asking how that will work when the dog is 70kg- she was told that the trainer doesn't deal with large breed adult dogs..

You don't want to come over as a cocky cow and peeve the trainer/behaviourist off when you are requiring their help. Unless it's something obviously dopy, as the consumer, you don't know. You don't tend to call in a professional and tell them how to do their job kind of thing

[Donegal]

I'd admit that I am pretty bad at giving negative feedback, especially to someone who sets themselves up as an "expert", although I am much better at it now than I have been in the past.

It's not unique to the dog training industry, I think it's the same as people going to the vet, or any other type of service industry - many people won't tell you to your face that they're unhappy with your service, since you're the "expert" and are supposed to know what you're doing, and they don't feel they're qualified to argue with you. They just vote with their feet, and go to another provider next time.

Of course, the behaviourist also has to welcome negative feedback, which can be quite hard for a person to do. On the few occasions I've told a trainer I didn't like what was happening, or that I hadn't had any success with the methods, I have not always gotten a particularly helpful response, or even a particularly polite one...

Yes, EXACTLY how I felt, and are pretty normal feelings for the average person I think.

[Nekhbet]

it is a shame you were burned Donegal. I have people say 'OK I know you're going to tell me off' ... I dont. Unless you are doing something unbelievably stupid after being repeatedly told not too then no, I dont believe in blaming the owner. Since no one is born knowing how to train dogs I dont see the point of telling offs - plus it's counter productive and frankly unprofessional.

You don't want to come over as a cocky cow and peeve the trainer/behaviourist off when you are requiring their help. Unless it's something obviously dopy, as the consumer, you don't know. You don't tend to call in a professional and tell them how to do their job kind of thing

Oh some people do the trick is whether the professional actually has the experience and manners to deal with the conversation direction. I would rather someone say 'I think you're wrong' then sit down and talk about why then me storm off in a huff - the poor dog is left in the middle.

ETA no one likes to hear their short comings. But those people do not evolve. Is it nice to hear you're shit? No. Is it nice to admit you're wrong? Double no but thats life. Some people just need to suck up their egos.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Nekhbet

[55chevy]

yup I'm driving a hummer ... they simply rebadged it with a lion logo 14 years ago oh wait, that one's not working at the moment and I have no cash to fix it so I'm driving the mercedes instead (*cough* XG panel van *cough*)

I think if you're into dog behaviour for the money you're in it for the wrong reasons. Saying that there are trainers down here calling themselves behaviourists and charging up to $500 a session. Oh well horses for courses. I charge what I charge, it's enough to cover my time and all I really care most about is the fact the dog and family are happy. Sometimes I think I should build myself a big flash website, triple my fees, write courses etc but you know what, it makes me feel like I would lose sight of why I started this in the first place.

I dont see a point to really standardise behaviourists and trainers because you know what will happen (should I say WHO will happen ...) laws are restrictive enough already no uneducated clot or delta brainwashed politician is going to tell me how to train dogs. I do what I have to and as long as I am not causing harm to the dog either mentally or physically then people should stay out of telling me how to do it. In fact I am the one who is called after all other trainers are exhausted.

It's not hard. A behaviourist is a person who can change a dogs behaviour and help the owners understand it without throwing a psychology text book at them. Too many people still believe if a dog knows enough commands you've fixed the overall dog - no you taught it tricks. Tricks that temporarily may make a difference through conditioning but dont fix the overall dog.

Saying that practical experience is worth a hell of a lot more then just reading books. I've met 2 veterinary behaviourists. One, OK has the hands on experience. The other could not even walk their own dogs on lead - why the heck would you fork out money to someone that needed a bag full of equipment to walk dogs who didnt even know how to sit at the end of it all.

I have searched for many years for the wording to explain a feeling I have about conditioning alternative responses and Nekhbet you are a champion, what you have said (bolded) is immaculate

YES!!!, I agree totally that positive reinforcement is the best way to teach a dog TRICKS, absolutely, and this what is happening. Instead of dealing with the actual problem and teaching the dog not do do something forthwith, they teach as an alternative, 14 tricks to lure the dogs mind off the real issue. Eventually after the dog learns the 14 tricks two years later, they claim to have reshaped the behaviour successfully without ever having to correct the dog or apply an aversive, BUT!!!, when the 15th trick is missing where the dog has learned no boundaries or knowledge of consequence in the crunch and the dog fails one cue is when unreliability takes place.

[JulesP]

Why the hell has this turned into a slag-off-the-positive-trainer session?????

Once more I would like to use an e-collar and not on a dog.

[Erny]

Why the hell has this turned into a slag-off-the-positive-trainer session?????

Once more I would like to use an e-collar and not on a dog.

Why do you want to pick on e-collars? If you used an e-collar the way I do, it might not achieve what I think you might want in this instance. Too soft. . I think you'd cause more punishment if you used a Head Collar.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Erny

[55chevy]

'Greytmate' date='29th Nov 2010 - 12:15 PM' post='4988952']

55Chevy, I don't believe that it is appropriate to diagnose and treat aggression problem over the internet.

It isn't appropriate for me, because I do not want to take responsibility for giving advice that I cannot ensure has been understood or applied properly.

So yes, in that respect it is a cop out.

I don't know it is possible to safely diagnose and treat aggression with a theoretical dog that has been described on the Internet. Dog behaviourists look at dog behaviour, not just listen to owner problems. And then there will be other people reading that may decide to try the advice on their own dog, with disastrous results.

If people have an aggressive dog that they are unable to control, and they are unwilling or unable to get professional help, I would advise they euthanise the dog.

I realise that not all trainers and behaviourist are qualified, but they all still have take on responsibility for what they do and say. I would be happy to find a good behaviourist for anyone in Australia that needed one. But usually there are good recommendations given here, so I don't need to.

I agree that aggression is a behaviour that should be met with caution, but I am talking more on SkyeGSD's comment that these issues should be discussed. Everyone shutting down with behaviourist recommendations and spraying people with contempt if they dare mention a behavioural remedy IMHO is over the top. People happily discuss a way to improve a long stay but if someone has an aggression issue it's basically go away and we can all retreat to the safety net of denial. If a dog breaks a long stay is not that big a deal, but if a dog is showing signs of aggression which is a big deal simply most don't want to know about it. With the amount of experienced people here, there is no reason at all why aggression discussions can't be entered into or even short term remedies suggested. To say in a blanket statement across the board that aggression issues cannot be diagnosed on the internet without seeing the dog, individuals can speak for themselves on that one, Ed Frawley from Leerburg in the US doesn't have any problem writing books and doing video's on aggression resolution like many others who have never seen someone's dog. Half the behaviourists wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway and all give a different answer and remedy and such a protocol is clearly bulldust. Breed specific aggression especially, can be diagnosed on the internet easily as 99.9% of genetic traits in particular breeds are the same and is not hard to determine having breed experience although many may not understand doesn't make their lack of understanding the reason to adopt a particular protocol.

[JulesP]

Why the hell has this turned into a slag-off-the-positive-trainer session?????

Once more I would like to use an e-collar and not on a dog.

Why do you want to pick on e-collars? If you used an e-collar the way I do, it might not achieve what I think you might want in this instance. Too soft. . I think you'd cause more punishment if you used a Head Collar.

Well I would prefer a long distance correction. As a not very large female I also think I might not have the suitable strength to give a decent correction with a head collar. And more then anything a bit of zapping with an e collar would be lots of fun.

[55chevy]

Why the hell has this turned into a slag-off-the-positive-trainer session?????

Once more I would like to use an e-collar and not on a dog.

No, it's not a slag off on positive training techniques, it's a slag off if you like upon trainers who use positive methods to the detriment of the dog for the pride of saying "I don't use aversion ever" as some do. Their training career is purely method based being their eternal lynchpin, the be all and end all of greatness supreme having never have corrected a dog, used a choker, prong or Ecollar. They are more interested in never having used a correction or a tool of aversion than how many dogs they have successfully trained. The one's they can't train if they are not already at the bridge, will be someone elses fault, or the dog was so screwed up in the head, PTS was the best option.

If the idea is to train dogs and be good at training dogs, you do what it takes to train the dog and use what ever methods are available to get the job successfully done, that IMHO is what good trainer is all about

[Erny]

Well I would prefer a long distance correction. As a not very large female I also think I might not have the suitable strength to give a decent correction with a head collar. And more then anything a bit of zapping with an e collar would be lots of fun.

Fair enough, lol. Admittedly, you'd do more damage with a head collar for potentially little returns, .