Dog Behaviourist?

[huski]

Yawn, 55Chevy et al, don't you ever get bored pedaling the same argument in every single thread?

[huski]

Breed specific aggression especially, can be diagnosed on the internet easily as 99.9% of genetic traits in particular breeds are the same and is not hard to determine having breed experience although many may not understand doesn't make their lack of understanding the reason to adopt a particular protocol.

A good trainer may be able to get a pretty good feel on what kind of aggression a dog may have over the internet, but not one reputable trainer would ever diagnose aggression over the internet. Even people like K9 Pro, Erny, Nekhbet, Cosmolo etc who are all very knowledgable and experienced trainers/behaviourists won't do it. What makes you think you know better than they do?

[Greytmate]

I don't care what Leerburg does.

Aggression is dangerous, and if somebody wrongly uses an aversive on a dog that is aggressive due to anxiety, the problem can be made much worse.

General advice is usually given on things people can try to encourage good behaviour and attitude from their dog. But nobody should ever be encouraged to think they never need go beyond reading stuff online to solve their dog's aggression problems.

Handler problems are more common than dog problems, and you often need to see how a person handles to know the best way to communicate the right solution to them.

This topic has been brought up a few times here over the years. Those with reputations to protect do not attempt to solve dangerous behavioural problems here on the forums.

[55chevy]

Why the hell has this turned into a slag-off-the-positive-trainer session?????

Once more I would like to use an e-collar and not on a dog.

Why do you want to pick on e-collars? If you used an e-collar the way I do, it might not achieve what I think you might want in this instance. Too soft. . I think you'd cause more punishment if you used a Head Collar.

Exactly!!!, it's no different than for example walking back to a dog who's lost focus and sniffing the ground and touching it on the shoulder to regain attention. You could always be a "humane" trainer and yank the dog away with a halti E collar training is not about blasting the dog with a heart stopping electric shock in fact none of the E collars on the market today have anywhere near the power to achieve that.

[Nekhbet]

no you dont diagnose problems fully until you see the dog. It's like calling the doctor, saying I feel X, Y, Z tell me whats wrong and how I fix it. It's not possible and in fact can be dangerous because owners need to learn the skills in order to ensure any changes will be permanent and recognise warning signs of potential snowballing behaviour or what is normal in the behavioral change process. I find the biggest problem is owners self diagnosing and labelling behaviours which are wrong - many times I have gone to visit a dog which the owner explains to be one way, I think hmmmm let's see whats really going on, and see a totally different thing to what the owners have thought was going on. Can you make generalisations? Yes. If someone who buys, say, a working line shepherd says to me it's barking it's head off, bitten the owner a few times, shredded the yard and goes off it's head any time it sees a dog in the street I have a good idea whats going on and I can usually put the finger on what they have and have not done with the dog. Saying that you never simply stick to those generalisations ... like they say never assume, it makes an arse out of you and me.

This is not a positive only vs punishment argument. There are people who use a whole 'tool box' and are still complete knobs when it comes to knowing anything about dogs. Then there are people who use a few tools but recognise their skill set and are happy to fix dogs within their parameter, and refer the too hards to someone who knows better. You can ruin a dog no matter the method you use, that I can guarentee you.

[JulesP]

Why the hell has this turned into a slag-off-the-positive-trainer session?????

Once more I would like to use an e-collar and not on a dog.

Why do you want to pick on e-collars? If you used an e-collar the way I do, it might not achieve what I think you might want in this instance. Too soft. . I think you'd cause more punishment if you used a Head Collar.

Exactly!!!, it's no different than for example walking back to a dog who's lost focus and sniffing the ground and touching it on the shoulder to regain attention. You could always be a "humane" trainer and yank the dog away with a halti E collar training is not about blasting the dog with a heart stopping electric shock in fact none of the E collars on the market today have anywhere near the power to achieve that.

Well I'm not an expert on head collars as I am such an amazing trainer I've never had to use one.

[55chevy]

I don't care what Leerburg does.

Aggression is dangerous, and if somebody wrongly uses an aversive on a dog that is aggressive due to anxiety, the problem can be made much worse.

General advice is usually given on things people can try to encourage good behaviour and attitude from their dog. But nobody should ever be encouraged to think they never need go beyond reading stuff online to solve their dog's aggression problems.

Handler problems are more common than dog problems, and you often need to see how a person handles to know the best way to communicate the right solution to them.

This topic has been brought up a few times here over the years. Those with reputations to protect do not attempt to solve dangerous behavioural problems here on the forums.

Exactly I agree, it can work both ways when aggression is discussed properly and someone contemplating a self cure as people do, when allowed to be discuss openly, we may just prevent someone escalating aggression too

[Greytmate]

That is exactly right Nek.

[55chevy]

Breed specific aggression especially, can be diagnosed on the internet easily as 99.9% of genetic traits in particular breeds are the same and is not hard to determine having breed experience although many may not understand doesn't make their lack of understanding the reason to adopt a particular protocol.

A good trainer may be able to get a pretty good feel on what kind of aggression a dog may have over the internet, but not one reputable trainer would ever diagnose aggression over the internet. Even people like K9 Pro, Erny, Nekhbet, Cosmolo etc who are all very knowledgable and experienced trainers/behaviourists won't do it. What makes you think you know better than they do?

That's silly Huski seriously, Ed Frawley, Mike Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Nate Harves, Phil Heolcher etc etc are not reputable trainers???, there is a larger backyard than ours here in the dog training arena. I don't know what the people you have quoted have done, I admit I have never trained a small dog or many pet dogs or taught dogs many tricks, but I trained and handled tactical service dogs for 22 years and titled 3 dogs in Schutzhund is probably the extent of what I will ever achieve and yes there are plenty better than me. I don't have a problem with aggression which was part and parcel of the job I guess, and there are not too many aggressive traits in GSD's and Rottweillers I haven't seen. Malinois.............I reckon Nekhbet could teach me something about their psych, but I promise Huski I won't advise you on training agility dogs, too many jumps and obsticles for me

[corvus]

Well, I for one would be surprised if behaviourist accreditation involved limiting the tools permissible to use. I would be surprised because the whole point of accreditation is to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I don't know any behaviourists no matter how strongly they promote positive methods that don't realise there is a time and place for punishments. At the APDT conference Ken Ramirez made a point of putting up Terry Ryan's toolbox and pointing out that it includes punishment. Ramirez is one of the best known positive trainers in the world and he was upfront about the fact that positive just means they try not to have to use punishments.

It's up to the professional to decide where to draw that line, not a professional body IMO. The professional body just has a system whereby they can identify who has earned the right to call themselves professionals.

Incidentally, people like Ramirez help trainers of different animals all over the world and he says differential reinforcement of an incompatible behaviour solves most problems. I do think that picking the right behaviour can mean the difference between success and failure, though.

[*Bones*]

Most of the problems brought to this forum could be solved by those who train/obedience their own dogs. However, no one sensible will give any other than blanket advice on a problem on the web without seeing the dog and the problem. The information supplied may not be correct, and only more problems can come from giving advice.

Most problems could be adequately handed by a competent trainer.

Behaviourist/trainer. Who can tell which will do a competent job, and not exacerbate the problem? If the person with the problem had word of mouth to go by, they would not ask here.

[Aidan3]

If the person with the problem had word of mouth to go by, they would not ask here.

Almost universally DOL members will ask where the poster lives, then suggest a competent professional in their area. That doesn't solve the problem of people who don't use forums, so there is still a problem.

[Skye GSD]

My girl was diagnosed by trainers at my local club as aggressive and I spent more time out of the training arena than in it. Only allowed to use a flat collar, it became almost impossible to hold and push treats on to her which did not reach the supposed mark (her mouth) as she just was not interested. Was told about the new reactive dog class and decided to give it a try. Imagine putting ten aggressive/reactive dogs in the same arena and what do you think is going to happen?? A well known behaviourist was also on hand to offer expert advice. Her first words to me were "what is her lineage - she is obviously from working dog lines" and then proceeded to tell me that you cannot make a pet out of a working line GSD - did wonders for my confidence and I am an experienced GSD handler but have never had such a strong-willed pup. The last straw was when the head trainer put me and another older gentleman with a bitch the same age in parallel training lanes and they proceeded to feed off one anothers barking and growling and the wise words from the trainer was "now if these two girls were let go they would kill one another". At the end of the session, it was suggested that I contact the police force and perhaps start again with a more mellow dog!!! I am a pretty tough cookie but I cried all the way home and have never been back.

Got myself a new personal trainer who believes in using consequences for negative reactions and after the second training session was able to walk in to his group session with ten other dogs of all breeds and trained for a full hour with no negative reaction from Skye. Even socialised all dogs off lead with no reaction from Skye and I saw then that the aggressive bull**** I had been fed had affected MY handling. We are still not 100% non-reactive but can now walk the streets without the lunging and barking and am really enjoying my headstrong girl.

With the negative reactions from the "positive" brigade plus breed specific head trainer and well-known behaviourist it would have been so easy to give up - I am so glad I didn't!

[Skye GSD]

PS - 55chevy - thanks for seeing my perspective - all most people want is a little encouragement - it goes a longway

[Aidan3]

Her first words to me were "what is her lineage - she is obviously from working dog lines" and then proceeded to tell me that you cannot make a pet out of a working line GSD - did wonders for my confidence and I am an experienced GSD handler but have never had such a strong-willed pup. The last straw was when the head trainer put me and another older gentleman with a bitch the same age in parallel training lanes and they proceeded to feed off one anothers barking and growling

That's a terrible experience and a good case for better education of behaviourists.

I have a working line GSD and she is a wonderful pet, but hasn't always been good with other dogs. We do most of our walking with her dragging a long-line and we do come across other dogs fairly often. She is able to work closely with several other dogs, too. Although I am not a purely positive trainer, I can honestly say that I have not ever used anything more than a collar pop on her around other dogs.

You cannot use positive reinforcement if you don't set the dogs up for success. I'm not sure who the behaviourist you saw was, but I don't mind saying they are not a good example based on your description of what happened. I run reactive dog classes, and yes sometimes we have ten dogs on the field together (when they are ready), but most of the time we work in small groups (2-3 dogs at a time) while the others wait in the car.

If you aren't seeing an increase in the response you are rewarding, then it isn't positive reinforcement, it's just feeding (or pushing food in a dogs face). I would think anyone who believes they are qualified to be called a "behaviourist" should know this at least, but apparently not!

[Skye GSD]

And on a lighter note - the beautiful Skye! How could I give this up!

[corvus]

If you aren't seeing an increase in the response you are rewarding, then it isn't positive reinforcement, it's just feeding (or pushing food in a dogs face). I would think anyone who believes they are qualified to be called a "behaviourist" should know this at least, but apparently not!

I think that's the problem! A bit scary when an armchair hobbyist apparently knows more about it than a professional.

[Nekhbet]

I think that's the problem! A bit scary when an armchair hobbyist apparently knows more about it than a professional.

That seems to be the basis of half the threads here that escalate... it's also a reason I dont bother posting a lot anymore. There's only so long you want to bother with arguing against people who 'know better'.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Vickie]

Just a point,

the word of mouth thing can go both ways. I have taught a couple of people who I wouldn't like to be labelled as students of mine. They came each week, nodded their heads, never did any homework or seriously attempted what was suggested then proceeded to end up doing what they'd always done. Word of mouth can promote but it can also make good trainers look bad very easily.

I think we can assume that sometimes when a behaviourist or trainers appears to fail with a dog, it doesn't mean their skills are necessarily lacking.

[Cosmolo]

Thats an excellent point too Vickie- i think it pays to always be careful about sources of information and recognise other factors.

A great behaviourist or trainer can't 'fix' everything, regardless of other factors.