Dog Behaviourist?

[Donegal]

Can someone tell me what a Dog Behaviourist actually is???. The title appears as a higher qualification than a Dog Trainer, but from what I have researched there is no formal qualification for either, so it seems like anyone can open a business and call themselves a trainer/behaviourist, is that correct???.

[corvus]

Yep, that is correct, scarily. I think in the States you can do an applied animal behaviour degree, which is basically designed to train behaviourists, but over here there is no such thing. There are a few web-based courses that can be done, and NDTF have one as well. Most behaviourists I know have a Bachelor of Science and an animal training qualification of some sort. I think it's a major problem in the industry that pretty much anyone can call themselves a behaviourist. As I understand it, there is a push within the industry for an accreditation system.

[55chevy]

Yep, that is correct, scarily. I think in the States you can do an applied animal behaviour degree, which is basically designed to train behaviourists, but over here there is no such thing. There are a few web-based courses that can be done, and NDTF have one as well. Most behaviourists I know have a Bachelor of Science and an animal training qualification of some sort. I think it's a major problem in the industry that pretty much anyone can call themselves a behaviourist. As I understand it, there is a push within the industry for an accreditation system.

Yes, it is a bit scary, but I guess it's no different than some official trades, car mechanics, carpenters, hair dressers etc can all operate a business without formal qualifications too With dog training/behaviourists probably recommendations and word of mouth from others is the best bet. Some of the franchised training outfits provide an 8 hour course for your 20k I have heard, that's scary

[ChristineX]

The good ones work on finding more training thru-out their careers and work in increasing their skills continually. And yes, I've heard that the franchises its take this (max) two week course and you are set! The latter ruin a lot of good dogs, and the former always have more work than they can handle.

That's why word of mouth recommendations are so important.

[corvus]

I wouldn't even go on word of mouth. I have heard some people cheerily tell me that their behaviourist was wonderful and has really helped when I'm looking at the dog and hearing what the behaviourist recommended and it's plain as day there's no difference in the dog's behaviour. People expect that contacting a professional will work, and so they see improvements where there are none. Sometimes it just feels good to them to do anything at all, and that puts them in a positive frame of mind and the dog's behaviour seems better because they feel better.

I would expect a behaviourist to go through a behavioural analysis process and have an objective system whereby behaviour can be monitored during and after treatment so it is certain whether the behaviour is changing.

[Greytmate]

I thought that as long as you had done animal behaviour for your postgraduate degree (any animal), you get the qualification?

While this may mean they know nothing about dogs, it means that they can call themselves behaviourists.

Veterinary Behaviourists have two separate qualifications. Again, may have had very little experience with dogs.

But dogs are the only animal most people would ever call a behaviourist for.

I would expect a behaviourist to go through a behavioural analysis process and have an objective system whereby behaviour can be monitored during and after treatment so it is certain whether the behaviour is changing.

That sounds sensible, but you are right about how people think.

From the point of somebody calling a behaviourist, they would probably want you to say you can change the behaviour now, and not for you to do things that may or may not work and need to be monitored to see if they work.

Those that make a living from dog behaviour mostly do so because they know how to work with people and sell their services.

[55chevy]

I wouldn't even go on word of mouth. I have heard some people cheerily tell me that their behaviourist was wonderful and has really helped when I'm looking at the dog and hearing what the behaviourist recommended and it's plain as day there's no difference in the dog's behaviour. People expect that contacting a professional will work, and so they see improvements where there are none. Sometimes it just feels good to them to do anything at all, and that puts them in a positive frame of mind and the dog's behaviour seems better because they feel better.

I would expect a behaviourist to go through a behavioural analysis process and have an objective system whereby behaviour can be monitored during and after treatment so it is certain whether the behaviour is changing.

I have actually seen that with a dog aggression case once where the behaviourist gave the owner more confidence, she wasn't as anxious with the dog and the dog aggression improved somewhat as the dog felt less handler anxiety in certain situations. It didn't fix the problem as nothing was really addressed with the dog, but it made a difference to the owner, interesting concept that one

[corvus]

I have actually seen that with a dog aggression case once where the behaviourist gave the owner more confidence, she wasn't as anxious with the dog and the dog aggression improved somewhat as the dog felt less handler anxiety in certain situations.

Do you know for certain it improved? Was it measured?

I'm not doubting you, as I think confidence can have a huge effect on behaviour, but do you see what I'm getting at? You are telling me your interpretation of a situation you saw. I don't know what you expected to see, but chances are you saw what you expected to see. I guess it's a confirmation bias. Unless there is something that is objectively measurable, we can't really be sure that something helped, even if someone we know is smart and sensible about dogs says it helped.

I guess that there are always people that are only interested in the quick fix. We used to run into this all the time in environmental consulting. Companies would go with a cheap and dirty proposal even though they would be warned that they wouldn't get away with it and it would end up costing them more when they were instructed to do it again, or when the company they had hired added about a dozen variations they knew they would need from the start to avoid being told to do it again. Luckily, not everyone was like that or there would be no good environmental consulting businesses. Wait... what am I saying? There's a reason why I got out of that industry! Suffice to say there would be no better consulting businesses... The better ones often get work when someone uses one of the shoddy ones and gets told they'll have to redo it with a little extra. Maybe the same goes for behaviourists?

[55chevy]

I have actually seen that with a dog aggression case once where the behaviourist gave the owner more confidence, she wasn't as anxious with the dog and the dog aggression improved somewhat as the dog felt less handler anxiety in certain situations.

Do you know for certain it improved? Was it measured?

I'm not doubting you, as I think confidence can have a huge effect on behaviour, but do you see what I'm getting at? You are telling me your interpretation of a situation you saw. I don't know what you expected to see, but chances are you saw what you expected to see. I guess it's a confirmation bias. Unless there is something that is objectively measurable, we can't really be sure that something helped, even if someone we know is smart and sensible about dogs says it helped.

I guess that there are always people that are only interested in the quick fix. We used to run into this all the time in environmental consulting. Companies would go with a cheap and dirty proposal even though they would be warned that they wouldn't get away with it and it would end up costing them more when they were instructed to do it again, or when the company they had hired added about a dozen variations they knew they would need from the start to avoid being told to do it again. Luckily, not everyone was like that or there would be no good environmental consulting businesses. Wait... what am I saying? There's a reason why I got out of that industry! Suffice to say there would be no better consulting businesses... The better ones often get work when someone uses one of the shoddy ones and gets told they'll have to redo it with a little extra. Maybe the same goes for behaviourists?

Yes, after seeing the behaviourist it reduced the distance between other dogs before it would fire up. I think the owner before seeing the behaviourist was tensing up when seeing another dog approach antcipating her dogs aggressive behaviour. I think perhaps she remained calm until the approaching dog was much closer after seeing the behaviourist is all I could put it down to. Nothing was done to retrain the dog I know that much. I think by memory the behaviourist was about leadership and walking straight and breathing exercises as in conditioning the owner to a degree.

I agree with the quick fix cheap option model. There is a lovely leather leash hanging in a petshop I vist which has been there for about 3 months, why doesn't anyone buy it, it would last for 20 years

[Greytmate]

I guess that there are always people that are only interested in the quick fix. We used to run into this all the time in environmental consulting. Companies would go with a cheap and dirty proposal even though they would be warned that they wouldn't get away with it and it would end up costing them more when they were instructed to do it again, or when the company they had hired added about a dozen variations they knew they would need from the start to avoid being told to do it again. Luckily, not everyone was like that or there would be no good environmental consulting businesses. Wait... what am I saying? There's a reason why I got out of that industry! Suffice to say there would be no better consulting businesses... The better ones often get work when someone uses one of the shoddy ones and gets told they'll have to redo it with a little extra. Maybe the same goes for behaviourists?

LOL.

I don't think you would be any less frustrated in this industry.

People usually have problem dogs because they were either born with problems or have owner created problems. The owner has a huge emotional investment that often prevents them seeing things rationally. Getting them to change the way that they manage the dog is sometimes not much different from getting somebody to change the way that they parent their child. You may also have to deal with the ego and the problem at the same time. Or maybe it is the problem. There is such a limit to how much behaviourists can do in real life situations.

But don't let me put you off.

[huski]

You also need to consider why an owner may not see the results they want. The behaviourist may be the best on the planet, but unless the owners follow the program properly and put the work in they won't see the results they could. It may appear to someone who meets the dog that the behaviourist is bad because there was no or little change, but so much of it is reliant on what the owners do, too.

[55chevy]

You also need to consider why an owner may not see the results they want. The behaviourist may be the best on the planet, but unless the owners follow the program properly and put the work in they won't see the results they could. It may appear to someone who meets the dog that the behaviourist is bad because there was no or little change, but so much of it is reliant on what the owners do, too.

Reminds me of a resource guarder once a Rotty pup, the owners had a large toy box in the corner of the room and if anyone touched her toys, she would rush at them and bite. When she got old enough for her aggression to escalate and her bites really hurt, I was asked to have a look at their dog. First thing, remove the toy box, put the toys way and give her one to play with then put it away, make it that the owners allow the dog to play with their toys.

The following week, I walk into the house and there is the toy box back in the corner full of toys WTF???. Owner says, "she hasn't really improved at all so I couldn't leave her without her toys" The hardest job is teaching people how to train a dog and trusting that they carry out instructions properly

[55chevy]

Double post, sorry

Edited November 28, 2010 by 55chevy

[Greytmate]

People often don't consult a behaviourist until the behaviour is really ingrained. If it can be changed it will take a massive amount of time an effort.

By the time they have come to you, the behaviour will have most likely already caused conflict within the family. You can have the person that contacts you quite willing to do whatever you suggest - with a partner at home who has been pushed to the point where they are unwilling to make a single concession for the dog, and may even act counter-productively out of resentment. :rolleyes:

[corvus]

Yes, after seeing the behaviourist it reduced the distance between other dogs before it would fire up.

It was kind of a rhetorical question. :rolleyes: Measuring distance a dog can cope with before showing signs of mild distress is a good start in my view.

I think it's fair to expect people difficulties in any consulting job, indeed, any client-driven industry. Even in the government it was like that. I'm under no illusions that I could ever escape it, even by going into academia like I want to. The best I think I can hope for is to occasionally make a difference and enjoy the work.

[Tapferhund]

Yep, that is correct, scarily. I think in the States you can do an applied animal behaviour degree, which is basically designed to train behaviourists, but over here there is no such thing. There are a few web-based courses that can be done, and NDTF have one as well. Most behaviourists I know have a Bachelor of Science and an animal training qualification of some sort. I think it's a major problem in the industry that pretty much anyone can call themselves a behaviourist. As I understand it, there is a push within the industry for an accreditation system.

If there is a push within the industry its about time ! They need to be regulated as the behaviourist industry has become a big "money to be made" industry and imo most behaviourists out there are the ones to blame for people believing dogs are complicated beings..when in fact they're not complicated at all.

[55chevy]

Yep, that is correct, scarily. I think in the States you can do an applied animal behaviour degree, which is basically designed to train behaviourists, but over here there is no such thing. There are a few web-based courses that can be done, and NDTF have one as well. Most behaviourists I know have a Bachelor of Science and an animal training qualification of some sort. I think it's a major problem in the industry that pretty much anyone can call themselves a behaviourist. As I understand it, there is a push within the industry for an accreditation system.

If there is a push within the industry its about time ! They need to be regulated as the behaviourist industry has become a big "money to be made" industry and imo most behaviourists out there are the ones to blame for people believing dogs are complicated beings..when in fact they're not complicated at all.

I have to agree, there is a lot of money in exchange for plenty of mumbo jumbo with poor results

[Aidan3]

Yep, that is correct, scarily. I think in the States you can do an applied animal behaviour degree, which is basically designed to train behaviourists, but over here there is no such thing. There are a few web-based courses that can be done, and NDTF have one as well. Most behaviourists I know have a Bachelor of Science and an animal training qualification of some sort. I think it's a major problem in the industry that pretty much anyone can call themselves a behaviourist. As I understand it, there is a push within the industry for an accreditation system.

If there is a push within the industry its about time ! They need to be regulated as the behaviourist industry has become a big "money to be made" industry and imo most behaviourists out there are the ones to blame for people believing dogs are complicated beings..when in fact they're not complicated at all.

I have to agree, there is a lot of money in exchange for plenty of mumbo jumbo with poor results

I've heard they just throw the mumbo-jumbo in there to confuse the customers so they get poor results and have to keep coming back so that the behaviouralist can keep up the payments on their mansions and beach houses. It's genius really.

[Erny]

If there is a push within the industry its about time ! They need to be regulated as the behaviourist industry has become a big "money to be made" industry and imo most behaviourists out there are the ones to blame for people believing dogs are complicated beings..when in fact they're not complicated at all.

I have to agree, there is a lot of money in exchange for plenty of mumbo jumbo with poor results

I've heard they just throw the mumbo-jumbo in there to confuse the customers so they get poor results and have to keep coming back so that the behaviouralist can keep up the payments on their mansions and beach houses. It's genius really.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Lol Aidan- i think i am doing it wrong, where is my mansion??

I have not heard of a push for there to be a regulated industry- trainers can't agree with each other about training techniques in the broadest possible sense so who would be accredited and who would not! Wouldn't be a time thing either- some have been working with dogs for 1 year and do a good job, others may have been for 15 years and still not be very good at what they do.