Dog Fight

[Skitch]

Ohh paleeez

Yes you both are right, I do CARE far more for the dogs than I do for the OP feelings or IMO lack of !!!

What an incredibly harsh and insensitive thing to say. First of all, having an incident break out between two dogs could happen to anyone, even the most experienced of dog owners. Unless you keep both dogs separated at all times, you never know what completely random thing could happen to affect one of the dog's behaviour - unexpected illness, new stimulae, toxins ... dogs are living creatures and cannot be 100% predictable.

Second, from what I can see, the OP is doing the best possible given an incredibly difficult situation. I know some would say PTS the Akita but that sounds profoundly unfair and extreme given the circumstances. I'm no expert but I'm guessing that it's going to be far easier to find a good new home for a Fox Terrier than it would be for a male Akita given the fact that there is undeniable bias against and fear surrounding large breeds in the community. Your comments above would appear to be clear manifestations of such viewpoints. In any case, it's really unfortunate that this thread has to devolve like this. Can't we just sympathise with the poor OP and give helpful suggestions instead of making OP feel worse? Tapferhund if you really feel so strongly about Akitas and scenarios like this and believe that people take it upon themselves when they select breeds like Akitas - couldn't it be more appropriately discussed in a new thread? I'm sure many would like to engage and discuss over there.

Agreed!

Tapferhund what would you like to see the owner of these dogs do? Would you rather that they rehomed the akita? Or would you prefer that they kept both dogs and risked another incident? I think given the situation the owner is doing the best thing possible if they are not able to keep the dogs separated. Your comments are incredibly harsh and judgmental.. completely unnecessary.

[Erny]

The foxy pulled through $1200 vet bill and I'm rehoming the foxy. He was my fathers dog before he passed away so we took him in.

Getting a behaviorist in would be a waste of time the little foxy is very old and set in his ways.

Is your little Foxy in good health? Sometimes ill health can be a trigger to a fight that has harmful intent by one.

I'm glad the Foxy pulled through. How upsetting it must be for you, given the little guy was your Dad's. I hope you manage to find a good home for him - one that will care for him in his old age and allow him to lead a peaceful time in his senior years.

[stormie]

So sorry to hear about this. What an awful situation for you.

Just wondering though, maybe if you could explain how the Foxy 'started it', what the situation was etc, some experienced people may be able to shed some light on the situation? Is it possible that the Foxy was responding to subtle body language and perhaps the Akita started it?

I still second the suggestion of a Behaviourist to assess the behaviour of the two together. Just in case it is the Akita with the 'problem'? Even though you have decided to rehome the Foxy, I would think it important to make sure your Akita isn't developing any problems and to be sure you're not rehoming a DA Foxy

Edited November 28, 2010 by stormie

[SpikesPuppy]

I'm very sorry for you, I hope your dog survives.

Dogs do sometimes squabble, however if one of them is getting this seriously hurt, it's more than a squabble. If your foxie survives (or even if he doesn't) I'd suggest you consider getting a behaviourist in to help find out what's going on with your Akita. Your partner might also be happier with you keeping the Akita if they can see you're doing something to make the Akita less likely to hurt another dog again.

Siks3,

I'm sorry about your fathers little Foxie and you are right about two male dogs..especially if they have not grown together...........but as soon as I saw Akita.....it didn't surprize me. Now before everyone pounces on me.......I have known dozens of Akita's in the past through friends having them as well as being at Akita shows when the breed was very popular.......and I have not met ONE I would trust. They are a big powerful breed with very few having good temperament with other dogs and sometimes with people.

I think it is very sad you have to give the Foxie away....especially as he is an old dog and has had the trauma of loosing his owner (your father).......and now he is about to lose you too in being re housed with someone else.

Sad situation all round.

I disagree with your male dog perspective Tapferhund, the males growing up together from pups are more likely to fight in my experience than an older/younger combination. Akitas are not a whole lot different to working line GSD's, Rottys, Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and some Bull breeds that have genetic fighting drive, more than likely you are comparing more classical Akita's with watered down pet versions of the breeds I mentioned. Any breed with genetic fighting drive if pushed too hard with bullying or being shoved around unfairly will defend themselves and make a good job of it, lets not put Akita's in the traditional Pit Bull charade with more unsubstantiated comments of negativity based on breed.

Well I disagree with your perspective 55C ! In my experience same litter males growing up together , same litter females growing up together are less likely to fight than bringing two older male or female dogs together and expect them to live happily together.......although I have this situation too.....with no problem.

I have had up to five entire males run together...even when I have had bitches in season ...and all with no problem. It comes down to leadership by the owner imo. The only time I would separate was when no one was at home. Other than that they all lived happily together.

The OP had an old small dog and a younger (I'm assuming) larger dog. So do you honestly believe an old dog would be annoying (bullying) the younger dog? Truth be known the poor old foxie didn't want to be bothered with the Akita continually annoying it .

As for your comments that Akitas are not a whole lot different to the working breeds you have mentioned......along with these breeds having genetic 'fighting drive'.......

.........what a load of codswallop !!!!!!!!!!! Akita's were bred to hunt bear as well as other large wild animals....whereas each and everyone of those working breeds were bred to herd!

Quote from an Akita website. Perhaps if the OP had done some research on his chosen breed the poor foxie might have been spared from being mauled.

The Akita Inu have a reputation for sometimes being aggressive towards smaller animals or other dogs, particularly those of the same sex.

Why?? What did the OP do wrong? They appear to have chosen their Akita prior to being lumped with this smaller dog, what should they hav done? Dumped their Akita when the little dog came along???

[Cosmolo]

It doesn't always come down to an owners leadership when dogs fight, although it is often a contributing factor. Interdog aggression can be simple or it can be complex- and no one here knows without seeing whats gone on with these dogs.

I have met some nice Akitas and some with issues- could say that about most breeds.

OP- i am glad your little one will be okay.

[Bow Wowy]

I'm glad both dogs are ok. Good on you for coming up with a resolution that means both dogs get a happy ending

[55chevy]

So sorry to hear about this. What an awful situation for you.

Just wondering though, maybe if you could explain how the Foxy 'started it', what the situation was etc, some experienced people may be able to shed some light on the situation? Is it possible that the Foxy was responding to subtle body language and perhaps the Akita started it?

I still second the suggestion of a Behaviourist to assess the behaviour of the two together. Just in case it is the Akita with the 'problem'? Even though you have decided to rehome the Foxy, I would think it important to make sure your Akita isn't developing any problems and to be sure you're not rehoming a DA Foxy

Post incident behaviour would more than likely be completely different now the Foxy has been injured and the Akita's had a heavy correction and alpha roll to what it was pre incident. A behaviourist could only assess the aftermath and the present body language if the dogs are reunited which is unlikely to shed light on the cause of the fight or how it started IMHO

Edited November 28, 2010 by 55chevy

[SpikesPuppy]

*deleted on request*

It IS horrible and I can certainly understand rehoming the little guy (and in all honesty, finding a good home for an elderly fox terrier is going to be a lot easier than an Akita!!), but I wouldn't feel too bad about it. It's just extremely unfortunate when the dogs involved are of opposing sizes.

Edited November 28, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

SpikesPuppy, that situation is horrific. If one of my own dogs tried to kill one of the others in that way, they'd be gone and not to another home.

[SpikesPuppy]

SpikesPuppy, that situation is horrific. If one of my own dogs tried to kill one of the others in that way, they'd be gone and not to another home.

You weren't there, you don't know my dogs or their relationship, so what you would do in such a situation isn't really relevant.

ETA the only reason it was so serious was because of the size difference and if we didn't have Caber & Casey bouncing around like dickheads trying to PLAY it would have been easier to separate them.

You should see the two now! Cuddled up in a wee ball (and all bruises/wounds completely healed up with no scarring).

Edited November 28, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[asal]

Ohh paleeez

Yes you both are right, I do CARE far more for the dogs than I do for the OP feelings or IMO lack of !!!

What an incredibly harsh and insensitive thing to say. First of all, having an incident break out between two dogs could happen to anyone, even the most experienced of dog owners. Unless you keep both dogs separated at all times, you never know what completely random thing could happen to affect one of the dog's behaviour - unexpected illness, new stimulae, toxins ... dogs are living creatures and cannot be 100% predictable.

Second, from what I can see, the OP is doing the best possible given an incredibly difficult situation. I know some would say PTS the Akita but that sounds profoundly unfair and extreme given the circumstances. I'm no expert but I'm guessing that it's going to be far easier to find a good new home for a Fox Terrier than it would be for a male Akita given the fact that there is undeniable bias against and fear surrounding large breeds in the community. Your comments above would appear to be clear manifestations of such viewpoints.

In any case, it's really unfortunate that this thread has to devolve like this. Can't we just sympathise with the poor OP and give helpful suggestions instead of making OP feel worse? Tapferhund if you really feel so strongly about the temperament of Akitas, scenarios like this and believe that people take it upon themselves when they select breeds like Akitas - couldn't it be more appropriately discussed in a new thread? I'm sure many would like to engage and discuss over there, particularly if you believe that there is a genuine basis for avoiding the breed.

LOL

well it doesnt sound like Tapferhund 's temprement comess across as too noice b maybe needs rehoming

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

SpikesPuppy, that situation is horrific. If one of my own dogs tried to kill one of the others in that way, they'd be gone and not to another home.

You weren't there, you don't know my dogs or their relationship, so what you would do in such a situation isn't really relevant.

Well if you don't want anyone to comment on what you say, or your situation or your dogs, then don't post at all - what you have said is not relevant, is it?

If you don't think one dog attacking another in the way you describe isn't horrific, that is your business.

If one of my dogs decided to get one of my other dogs by the throat in the way you have described and I chose to put my own dog to sleep, that is my business.

[asal]

Ohh paleeez

Yes you both are right, I do CARE far more for the dogs than I do for the OP feelings or IMO lack of !!!

What an incredibly harsh and insensitive thing to say. First of all, having an incident break out between two dogs could happen to anyone, even the most experienced of dog owners. Unless you keep both dogs separated at all times, you never know what completely random thing could happen to affect one of the dog's behaviour - unexpected illness, new stimulae, toxins ... dogs are living creatures and cannot be 100% predictable.

Second, from what I can see, the OP is doing the best possible given an incredibly difficult situation. I know some would say PTS the Akita but that sounds profoundly unfair and extreme given the circumstances. I'm no expert but I'm guessing that it's going to be far easier to find a good new home for a Fox Terrier than it would be for a male Akita given the fact that there is undeniable bias against and fear surrounding large breeds in the community. Your comments above would appear to be clear manifestations of such viewpoints. In any case, it's really unfortunate that this thread has to devolve like this. Can't we just sympathise with the poor OP and give helpful suggestions instead of making OP feel worse? Tapferhund if you really feel so strongly about Akitas and scenarios like this and believe that people take it upon themselves when they select breeds like Akitas - couldn't it be more appropriately discussed in a new thread? I'm sure many would like to engage and discuss over there.

Agreed!

Tapferhund what would you like to see the owner of these dogs do? Would you rather that they rehomed the akita? Or would you prefer that they kept both dogs and risked another incident? I think given the situation the owner is doing the best thing possible if they are not able to keep the dogs separated. Your comments are incredibly harsh and judgmental.. completely unnecessary.

trouble is this IS they type of thinking and judment making thats getting so many laws passed to CONTROL anyone owning a dog. all in the name of defending the dogs. altough i doubt judy felt her dogs needing seizing..

but the mentality that set the train in motions is just this.....

roll over any rights of the owners or their stress....even when its not necessary.. reads as quilty until proven innocent mentality

[asal]

SpikesPuppy, that situation is horrific. If one of my own dogs tried to kill one of the others in that way, they'd be gone and not to another home.

You weren't there, you don't know my dogs or their relationship, so what you would do in such a situation isn't really relevant.

Well if you don't want anyone to comment on what you say, or your situation or your dogs, then don't post at all - what you have said is not relevant, is it?

If you don't think one dog attacking another in the way you describe isn't horrific, that is your business.

If one of my dogs decided to get one of my other dogs by the throat in the way you have described and I chose to put my own dog to sleep, that is my business.

as is spikes decision.

well for now

what the future holds is a whole differnt ball game

[SpikesPuppy]

SpikesPuppy, that situation is horrific. If one of my own dogs tried to kill one of the others in that way, they'd be gone and not to another home.

You weren't there, you don't know my dogs or their relationship, so what you would do in such a situation isn't really relevant.

Well if you don't want anyone to comment on what you say, or your situation or your dogs, then don't post at all - what you have said is not relevant, is it?

If you don't think one dog attacking another in the way you describe isn't horrific, that is your business.

If one of my dogs decided to get one of my other dogs by the throat in the way you have described and I chose to put my own dog to sleep, that is my business.

*deleted on request*

And I believe what I posted WAS relevant as it is a similar occurance to what happend to the OP and we have the dogs back to being best mates again so it's not always 'the end' of the relationship.

Edited November 28, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[SpikesPuppy]

SpikesPuppy, that situation is horrific. If one of my own dogs tried to kill one of the others in that way, they'd be gone and not to another home.

You weren't there, you don't know my dogs or their relationship, so what you would do in such a situation isn't really relevant.

Well if you don't want anyone to comment on what you say, or your situation or your dogs, then don't post at all - what you have said is not relevant, is it?

If you don't think one dog attacking another in the way you describe isn't horrific, that is your business.

If one of my dogs decided to get one of my other dogs by the throat in the way you have described and I chose to put my own dog to sleep, that is my business.

as is spikes decision.

well for now

what the future holds is a whole differnt ball game

TY asal for understanding

Certainly hold no illusions that they will be happy happy la las for ever but I think to this point, we have an amazing dynamic within our little fur-family considering these 2 are both dominant bitches. And also considering everywhere you look, you are told Borders never forget and after 1 fight they can never be trusted.....

[badboyz]

An awful situation to be in Siks3. I think you have made a wise choice rehoming one of the dogs. I am sure you will take the greatest care ini finding a new more suitable home for you dad's foxie.

Tapferhund, not fair to judge the breed, apart from the observation that Akita's are very strong dogs both physically and mentally, bred specifically for those traits, and will not likely lose in a fight, especially with a smaller dog. Any large strong guarding breed needs careful management, no matter how exceptional the temperament.

Spikespuppy, I had a similar issue with 2 girls I had, though the same breed. They were like sisters most of the time, but occasionally all hell would break loose with virtually no warning. Though neither ended up at deaths door, it was scary, and frightening. They were near impossible to separate. Neither girl ever fought like that with any of the other dogs. These two got on with all others, and like yours - with each other 95% of the time. They were affectionate and respectful of all humans. They were shar pei, and like the Akita, many would say that was normal and they couldn't be trusted. But I have had many shar pei over the last few years, as well as other breeds for even more years - almost all entire, and I have not had 2 fight like this. I personally would be very concerned, especailly with the size difference with your 2 girls and advise that you keep them separated almost all the time. You only have to be distracted briefly for things to go very wrong. You mention this is the 3rd and worst incident. I can only think it will get worse and more intense each time.

However, I am sure there is no reason at all to pts either of the bitches, as dogmad would have you do. I believe the issue between my 2 was due to the fact they were similar age (6mths apart) and saw themselves as equals/rivals. They did not fight with the older bitch (they would back down to her in any rare, but brief squabble) or the male dog or even the odd visiting dog. Just a personal issue between these 2. But it was a massive relief when one was eventually rehomed.

Not judging you, just sharing my similar experience and my concern.

Edited November 28, 2010 by badboyz

[OSoSwift]

So do you honestly believe an old dog would be annoying (bullying) the younger dog?

Yes!

The OP has handled the situation that gives a safe outcome for both dogs. Not only do they have the emotions and trauma of having witnessed and seperated two dogs fighting, the OP is going to rehome an elderly dog that was his/her deceased fathers. I am quite sure that was not a decision entered into lightly.

For what it is worth I have owned Dobes. My two bitched fought, there was quite a bit of blood and yes it was deadly serious. I didn't rehome I managed it but you do have to be onto it there can be no mistakes with who is out or in.

I got a Dobe knowing full well that two bitches together will quite often fight and ending up disliking each other for life. I do know that when a Dobe fights and it is serious they can potentially kill the other dog.

I would not put my Dobe down for this and I didn't as it is a breed temperment predisposition and something I was aware of and capable of managing. I do not think that every dog that has a fight with another dog should immediately be euthanased. My Dobes over the years were attacked by other dogs from Jack Russels up to Boxers and never once did they inflict damage, usually it was a solid warning and all were controlled by command only. I trained "leave it" and I meant it and they knew that.

If my Whippet full on attacked and tried to kill another dog I would find it far more disturbing as it is not a breed temperment predispostion at all.

It is not that cut and dried.

Edited November 28, 2010 by OSoSwift

[SpikesPuppy]

An awful situation to be in Siks3. I think you have made a wise choice rehoming one of the dogs. I am sure you will take the greatest care ini finding a new more suitable home for you dad's foxie.

Tapferhund, not fair to judge the breed, apart from the observation that Akita's are very strong dogs both physically and mentally, bred specifically for those traits, and will not likely lose in a fight, especially with a smaller dog. Any large strong guarding breed needs careful management, no matter how exceptional the temperament.

Spikespuppy, I had a similar issue with 2 girls I had, though the same breed. They were like sisters most of the time, but occasionally all hell would break loose with virtually no warning. Though neither ended up at deaths door, it was scary, and frightening. They were near impossible to separate. Neither girl ever fought like that with any of the other dogs. These two got on with all others, and like yours - with each other 95% of the time. They were affectionate and respectful of all humans. They were shar pei, and like the Akita, many would say that was normal and they couldn't be trusted. But I have had many shar pei over the last few years, as well as other breeds for even more years - almost all entire, and I have not had 2 fight like this. I personally would be very concerned, especailly with the size difference with your 2 girls and advise that you keep them separated almost all the time. You only have to be distracted briefly for things to go very wrong. You mention this is the 3rd and worst incident. I can only think it will get worse and more intense each time.

However, I am sure there is no reason at all to pts either of the bitches, as dogmad would have you do. I believe the issue between my 2 was due to the fact they were similar age (6mths apart) and saw themselves as equals/rivals. They did not fight with the older bitch (they would back down to her in any rare, but brief squabble) or the male dog or even the odd visiting dog. Just a personal issue between these 2. But it was a massive relief when one was eventually rehomed.

Not judging you, just sharing my similar experience and my concern.

Didn't think you were

*deleted on request*

I am sorry you had to go through that with your girls And I do appreciate you posting and your advice, thank you.

Edited November 28, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[SpikesPuppy]

To the OP - how are your dogs going now? Has your partner realised that the Akita was just being a dog? How is everything going??