I'm Curious.....about A Discussion Oh And I Were Having...

[Erny]

By golly, but that was a good post, Nekhbet .

It is not to tar all Vets with the same brush - there are some around who at least know their salt. But they are few and far between. And people who can think for themselves and who will shoulder some responsibility and show some common sense are also becoming less in numbers.

[rubiton]

In the 70s the family lab x lost teh use of his back legs he was only 6. Vet said no hope put him down - parents said not likely and they took him home and threw balls for him. Ball crazy dog he eventually got the strength in his legs back - no idea what the problem was but no one did fancy checks it was just based on what the vet thought. 80s - they would give them drugs to stop gastro, parvo and you had to give daily tablets for heartworm prevention. However the afghan struck with kidney disease and there was no treatment at all just kept them going as usually til you couldnt. Afghan was I think about 14 when she was put down and the lab x 13 and both were considered extremely old (the lab x was fine never a problem and then got sick two days before he died and the xray just showed dots everywhere). Golden Retriever lived til about end of 2000 and he was 17 but as an older dog he had adenodes/adenomas/something like that ulcerated lumps under/around his tail brought on by male hormones that had to be removed by surgery benign but still ifethreatening as an open wound that would not heal, had his backend that eventually was very weak and had other issues.

Our dog is now 11 a lab x and would be a cripple if not for science that was not around even in the 80s - cartrophan, joint powder not to mention special kidney food, etc but science has meant that its not unusual for dogs to be in good condition past 10 when in the past they would be considered on their last legs.

[Erny]

... but science has meant that its not unusual for dogs to be in good condition past 10 when in the past they would be considered on their last legs.

I'm sorry - perhaps it is that I'm considerably older than yourself? But 10 years of age was "senior" for a dog back in my younger years, not "on their last legs". It was fairly the norm for dogs to live to 14, 15, 16 and upwards, provided they did not come to grief through accident.

[Fleuri]

By golly, but that was a good post, Nekhbet .

It is not to tar all Vets with the same brush - there are some around who at least know their salt. But they are few and far between. And people who can think for themselves and who will shoulder some responsibility and show some common sense are also becoming less in numbers.

agree.

[Nekhbet]

saying that with our current medical advances are we really doing some animals a favour keeping them alive? Or in some cases are we just prolonging the inevitable?

Too with the big breeds I think a BIG part of HD/ED is the fact so many pups are unfit from the beginning. I have two pups here at the moment, they wrestle, running about, jumping, thumping, climbing, we're playing tug of war, rough housing etc and I dont let them sleep until they're well and truely tuckered out.

How many puppy owners have their dogs do that all day? Most pups sit about while their owners are at work. I see many large breed pups that are just dumpy and flacid - they do bits here and there but nothing compared to the amount they did a couple of decades ago, before the days of highly specialised diets, supplements, etc. A growing pup cant hold it's frame with fat - it needs muscle and proper development comes from exercise and play.

ETA Erny I have 3 malinois in the house at the moment ... I'm pinging ROFL

Edited November 27, 2010 by Nekhbet

[newfsie]

saying that with our current medical advances are we really doing some animals a favour keeping them alive? Or in some cases are we just prolonging the inevitable?

Too with the big breeds I think a BIG part of HD/ED is the fact so many pups are unfit from the beginning. I have two pups here at the moment, they wrestle, running about, jumping, thumping, climbing, we're playing tug of war, rough housing etc and I dont let them sleep until they're well and truely tuckered out.

How many puppy owners have their dogs do that all day? Most pups sit about while their owners are at work. I see many large breed pups that are just dumpy and flacid - they do bits here and there but nothing compared to the amount they did a couple of decades ago, before the days of highly specialised diets, supplements, etc. A growing pup cant hold it's frame with fat - it needs muscle and proper development comes from exercise and play.

ETA Erny I have 3 malinois in the house at the moment ... I'm pinging ROFL

I totally agree....my newfs are fit, i did not lock them up and keep them away from others. i have had newfs since I got married and have only had one with Rheumatoid Arthritis, which was bad luck.We go for long walks/ and allow our dogs to climb. we do agility, i must admit I do not do a lot of jumping by choice. But my dogs romp and play and swim twice a day in our dams at least by choice and also swim in the River. I meet so many newfies, who hardly move and are huffing and puffing after a short walk. i love to see newfies do Zoomies..........

[Nekhbet]

yup newfsy me too. My dogue can do agility, he lure coursed catching it at 18 months of age and carries little body fat. He can run, walk for hours and eaily jump onto my dining table without even trying.

We forget so many of these dogs had a working purpose and from the moment their legs could hold them as babies they were out and about all day!

Edited November 27, 2010 by Nekhbet

[newfsie]

yup newfsy me too. My dogue can do agility, he lure coursed catching it at 18 months of age and carries little body fat. He can run, walk for hours and eaily jump onto my dining table without even trying.

We forget so many of these dogs had a working purpose and from the moment their legs could hold them as babies they were out and about all day!

Yes mine love Bar-b-q tables beside the river, hardly ever used by folks....luckily they know not to do that when there are people around

[Shazzapug]

We too had labs....I dont remember how old our Penny was but my father would be most keen to help her through the winter without her being in any joint pain etc...all I remember is she was really old. When she passed we got a young lab bitch, I dont even remember if she was desexed but she used to go everywhere with me. When instead of housing estates it was still paddocks, we would walk for miles. Her name was Sally, and she was either dumped or just lost, she sat outside my grandfathers house for a few days like she was waiting for someone....so we, pinched her I'd say from the side of the road and I had her till she died in my arms of Distemper....I was mid teens.

Our dogs then lived on dry food and house scaps..... my Pugs now live on a raw diet but love the added yummy of house scraps, but with 4 growing kids there isnt too much scraps. We hardly ever went to the vet and I hardly ever go now, except for pregnant Pug bitches.

[Staranais]

Too with the big breeds I think a BIG part of HD/ED is the fact so many pups are unfit from the beginning. I have two pups here at the moment, they wrestle, running about, jumping, thumping, climbing, we're playing tug of war, rough housing etc and I dont let them sleep until they're well and truely tuckered out.

I wonder about that too, in a slightly different way.

Nowadays we tell puppy buyers to take care not to let their pups run, not to let them jump, not even to let them walk too long until their joints are fully mature, in order to avoid joint problems such as HD/ED/OCD etc - and IMO this is a good advice for a large breed puppy that is not going to be bred from as it gives the pup the best chance to mature without sustaining any joint damage.

But is possibly not good advice for future breeding prospects, as any fragility in cartilage or the associated joint structures will be masked by the molly-coddling, and will therefore be passed onto the next generation undiscovered.

I'm thinking that a dog that has been allowed to run and jump and romp from the word go and still has good joints when they are x-rayed at a year or two old, simply has good joints. A dog that is restricted as a youngster and has good joints, may have genetically robust joints, or may have delicate joints that simply were never stressed.

Would take a dedicated and somewhat ruthless breeder to let their large breed pups run and romp and jump as youngsters, and cull the ones that didn't have great joints at 1 or 2 years old. But may do their lines a big service in the long term in terms of eliminating any genetic tendency towards developmental joint disease.

Just something I have been thinking about lately. Not sure if I expressed it perfectly. And slightly off topic too, I guess.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Staranais

[persephone]

Hmmmm...

Our dogs have mostly all been working dogs .. living the 44gallon drum/chain/hard work lifestyle... illness has been a very infrequent happening.

Very occasionally a dog will get ill and require vet treatment ,but not often at all... 2 times in the last 10 years that I can think of One pyo, one obstruction.

dogs spend a lot of time at the vet because now the fashion is to promote 'check ups' every 6 months! What the heck! I can count the total amount of times my dogs have been to a vet on my hand and that is ONLY because it was a big deal (IE massive flap of skin hanging off dogs leg) everything else I do at home. Puncture wounds? Iodine and salt. Sprained yourself? Tough, go in a crate and I let the pain limit the dogs movement.

Also vets back then used to have more experience outside the box, if the dog was sick you rang them and they would usually tell you to give it a good dose of what you had handy and it would be right. Now ... OMG MY DOG HAS A SCRATCH! Vets told owners dogs have teeth, give them meat and bones to eat. If they have worms, worm them. If they're sore, tough titties if there's not something deathly wrong they probably would have asked you why you at their clinic too. Most of the time unless the dog WAS deathly ill people had enough brains or experience to fix things themselves. I'm becoming more dissapointed at the new generation of veterinarians too, many just parrot their text books and product guides at their clients which isnt right either. Many know very little about the impact of envrionment and diet, they (like many human doctors) work on the wrong end of the symptoms - mask them not solve the cause.

We're the generation that cannot think for ourselves and hence we like handing over everything that requires effort to others to just service for us. Vet - fix the dog. Just service it like a car and we'll be back when something else is wrong because we dont like getting our hands dirty and we just dont want to know, the media tells us ABC and we blindly follow. Christ we're the generation that has made so many artificial, starch and crap based treats and teeth cleaning products for our dogs because its just too much to admit the dog is a carniverous animal that loves chomping away on big meaty bones. The sheer idea of ANY parasite terrorises some people and hence lets pump our pets and environments FULL of pesticides and insecticides. They're part of the life cycle. They're not good but to bombard your animal every single day of its life with chemicals is not healthy - no wonder their immune systems are shot. As for breeding, my personal opinion is that we are breeding weaker animals. Weak both in temperament and in health. We shield away the puppies, we lock up dogs from disease and life and wonder why they're getting weaker. Decades ago a little more natural selection came into play or breeders were more willing to send the sick pups to heaven.

I couldn't agree more.

[kateshep]

Well said Nekhbet.

On the subject of hips/joint problems. I remember watching a doco which showed in one part the nomadic people and their dogs of Mongolia. The dogs provide companionship and guard their livestock. Due to the lifestyle of the people, the dogs even at a young age were expected to be sturdy and travel along with them as they moved from camp to camp. They are naturally selecting for very sound structured dogs which are physically capable and robust at a young age. Completely goes against the all too frequent advice given to large breed puppy owners of being extremely careful with exercise ect, and I wonder if we do them any favors by treating them in a fragile way, as we think they are or breeding them so they do need special care. Just a thought.

Edited November 29, 2010 by kateshep

[Nekhbet]

I'm devising a plan. I want to start breeding in the next few years but I want to raise my puppies a certain way. That way will also include a purpose built puppy area with tunnels, mounds, logs, obstacles etc and from the moment they can walk they will be out there all day exploring, sniffing, climbing, running, tumbling and just developing like a dog should.

The two I had here over the weekend, they lost some chub and gained some muscle. They were so active when the breeder picked them up, you should have seen them grab him with a nice full mouth, give a big thrash on clothing and their toys then run around like lunatics for ages.

The body needs to be stimulated to grow properly just like the mind. We fill our dogs with high energy food then put them in the corner like an ornament. If your dog needs supplements, special foods, therapy, injections etc in order to function I personally would cull from the gene pool. My own dog had an uncle that was out of the breeding pool because he simply had a malocclusion of his teeth.

Kateshep many countries still have large/giant breeds raised with little to no special care at all. Look at most of the livestock guardian breeds. They are huge dogs that live off very little and expected to start learning from the moment they can walk around. There is not time to carry around a dog with leg problems or that has a bad temperament. There's no beauty contests in the real world - it's sink or swim and the healthiest genetics that carry the dog to sexual maturity are passed on.