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[espinay2]

The are different issues in different locations. In more rural/regional areas access can definitely be one. I give an example of where I live. While classes are available an hour to an hour and a half away, this is not feasable for many people. They often drive an hour or more to and from work and then to have to turn around and drive back with the dog just doesnt work. Weekends aren't always feasable as there are often other things like childrens sports to deal with. OFten people have said to me that they know the classes are there and would love to attend but it is just not feasible for them.

This was the reason we started classes at the local vet clinic. We saw the need for classes locally and wanted to provide the service. As a result we run baby puppy classes and 'beginners' classes. The classes focus on basic manners, socialisation and problem solving to meet the needs of those attending. The first beginners class we ran we had about 30 people turn up for the information night! Attendance has been constant and steady ever since we started (though a little less in winter ). A lot of people attend both the baby puppy and beginners classes now.

It works well for the vet clinic as one of the biggest problems they encounter are dogs that are difficult to handle - we make sure we teach how to handle the dog all over. The dogs also enjoy coming to the clinic and are much more well behaved when they are there. This also expands into the local community as more dogs become less of a 'problem'. The clinic also allows use of a fenced area for regular socialisation and play sessions (used by people who have attended the classes), and dog walking groups and other activities have also evolved (we will soon be holding the chrismas party and play all sorts of games with the dogs and their families ). The clinic has now even installed lights for us so we can hold classes outside at night all year round. They see how successful it has been and it is great that they are supporting it.

While what we can offer is limited (we are dealing with limited resources even though we charge for the classes and have made a conscious decision not to offer any more than the basic classes at this stage), it provides a starting point. It is about providing access to information, services and assistance where it is not otherwise available. There will always be problems and those dogs (and people) with no manners. At least by providing access though, we are able to ensure that there are a greater number of dogs who at least get an opportunity become well adjusted members of the family.

[aussielover]

I also think it is more about changing attitudes. Many people do have a good level of obedience but choose not to use it. For example, at the park some people will not call their dog back to them if it harassed other dogs, w

Even when the dog does have good recall, as they are simPly unawRe of basic manners etc or think their dog is just being friendly.

People who can't or don't train their dogs to at least a basic level either get rid of the dog or never take it out.

[Agility Dogs]

Along these lines that Bully is suggesting, I feel the same, but would add that I think it would be a great idea for the councils to also offer more tiered discounts off reg if the dog has titles (perhaps a further discount for every title) either ANKC or otherwise.

What a fantastic idea!!! Even if people don't understand why they need manners or like the idea a genuine financial incentive is likely to achieve that result.

The only question I have is whether titles guarantee manners. I spend a lot of time around dog people and I see quite a few dogs with multiple titles that have absolutely NO manners at all. Good example is a SWF that plays both agility and flyball that lunges/snaps and snarls its way through life. (last night it nearly got itself into a lot of trouble with a BC that didn't appreciate her approach.) The owner really doesn't understand what her dog is doing and it is an up hill battle to get her to listen.

That said I still think it is a great idea - most people do start to 'get it' after a while and it certainly can't hurt to have a measure of control over a dog, even if it is not well mannered.

[anniek]

To me there is a huge differnence between good doggy manners and obedience training.

Dealing with greyhounds, I'd like to comment that the majority do not do too well, or enjoy, or need "obedience" training.

They are taught basic manners, walk to heel, wait etc during foster care and I believe this is sufficient for the majority of the breed.

Greyhounds are hard enough to find homes for without having to pay higher rego fees because they have not been to obedience classes!

My two greys are often referred to as the calmest dogs on our local beach, other dog owners love to use them to socialise with their "mad" dogs, yet at obedience classes they were quivering wrecks and would not do anything - not even respond to their names.

annieK

Edited November 26, 2010 by anniek

[helen]

Sorry, I've only skimmed the other replies.

In NSW we seem to have limited options for good manners training - and it is expensive. I've looked at classes that are from $150-$300 for 4 weeks. In this economic climate, a lot of people cannot afford that.

Somehow we need to work out how we can get small class sizes (4-8 max) at an affordable price, for people who want to teach their dog good manners. Even the dog training class run by a local community college is on the expensive side.

Most people I know who want to teach their dog good manners go from puppy pre-school to the local obedience club - many drop out because of the "paddock" bashing, and because they don't see what they're are being taught as being relevant to their needs. And, in a lot of cases, classes are huge, especially in the lower classes. At a local obedience class I went to, it wasn't unusual to have 20-25++ dogs in the beginners class... and often taught by the least experienced instructors!

I remember years ago being excited when I read about the Canine Good Citizen programme, then being disappointed in finding out that it was only offered in America at the time. I believe the CGC is offered in Victoria, and I know that some places in NSW offer it, but it seems in a lot of cases to be a watered down version. Also, a lot of people are not aware of it. I think somehow introducing this Australia-wide (or something similar, if people have a problem with Delta being behind CGC), might be a place to start.

In short:

- small, affordable classes at times that people can access them. I am thinking between $2-$5 a class.

- introduce a program Australia-wide aimed at obedient pets - CGC or similar

- somehow make it worthwhile for the most experience instructors to run these programs for "beginner dogs" - perhaps a council grant/subsidy??? To me, these classes being run by the least experienced instructors doesn't make sense, and is just asking for problems.

The training club I mentioned started out as training for the Rottweiler Club. They had opened up their training to all dogs not too long before I got Bella who is 11 in a few weeks and someone recommended it to me so along I went. The head instructor then and who still is now had been breeding and training Rotties for many years. She continued to educate herself all this time decided the benefits of postive training were much better and eventually she did the Delta instructors course. She trains all the instructors, quite a few of them have gone on and done the Delta course themselves. So pretty much this club has happened due to the vision of some good people volunteering their time. She also helped a lady from the Rottweiler Club in Adelaide who came and stayed with her for a week some time ago and who are now doing a similar thing.

They were charging $20 a school term and this goes up to $25 next year, the yearly membership fee is $10 for one person or $15 for a family. There is a joining fee which I don't know but might be around $60. They limit the class sizes to a maximum of 8, smaller groups for puppies, from memory that is 6.

The interesting thing about the club too is that there is a 5 year limit for the committee, they have always been able to fill committee positions without any drama

There is no paddock bashing, all exercises are explained by the instructor, you find your own bit of space and practice and the instructor wonders around helping

Edited November 26, 2010 by helen

[m-j]

But sometimes, people have the means and still lack the motivation.

People who come to training are motivated initially I have often wondered what makes them stop. Though asking this question to some people (not a large enough number to say unequivocally this is the reason) motivation I have found to be the biggest reason for people not going to training, not that they don't want to train their dog or are lazy but as has been mentioned distance, other just as important committments and little time to do both for as an ongoing committment, dislike of training methods, changing shifts, boredom, feeling that they don't need what is being offered in classes, these have not only been mentioned here but also by people I know.

To me there is a huge differnence between good doggy manners and obedience training.

They are taught basic manners, walk to heel, wait etc during foster care and I believe this is sufficient for the majority of the breed.

I agree this with most breeds, not just Greys, but with any breed there are exceptions of course.

I feel education to the fact that ongoing manners training/socialising and responsible dog ownership are essential, preferably before they get their pup may help. How this can be done I don't know, school programs, the RSPCA mentioning this in an ad, as they seem to be the only body that can afford them and by the general public they are respected, plus it will also help their cause.

Edited November 26, 2010 by m-j

[dogbuddy]

Being able to train a dog to behave well means understanding his behaviour and to do that, an owner must have a full understanding on how his dog would react to other people and to different situations. Dogs and owners must have a certain connection so it will be easier to discipline any bad dog behaviour. It's true that dogs also have certain moods like humans and this should be something that owners must understand.

[alpha bet]

I've been running training/social classes since 1995 - there were no other dog training facilities in the area nor did vets run any pup classes.

Started out from a background of dog obedience and began with that but pretty soon realised that this wasn't going to work with the general dog owners. Like others here have mentioned, people didnt want to march round and round nor did they really put in the homework. It became easy for them to become disheatened and feel they couldnt cope.

I had to learn - had to adapt and find better way to help and encourage.

Today our Foundation classes are based on play skills, both on and off lead. The handlers and dogs are shown how to make friends and have fun as well as working on excercises such as basic obedience, agility games, trick training (again all on and off lead). Once the life foundation skills are built then we those who wish can develop more potential training. And yes we are still adapting and changing to meet needs of the individuals.

The public first point of call for help with pups is via the vets. Now I know I am going to cop flack from DOL's here but remember you dont go to a GP for guidance with your childrens behaviour you seek out a specialist.

Vets of course sell places in their puppy schools - not a bad marketing excercise for the clinics - Many of these are run by vets or vet nurses and unfortunately not always a huge amount of experience in combined( training dogs and teaching people) - Vet schools teach very few long term skills - many of these are also relatively expensive (often $100 for five weeks or so and classes of 8-10 often being held in a vet waiting room) and there is no follow on when the dog really starts to develop more problems. To continue with an obedience club might involve another $60-100 for membership as well as a weekly fee. The public can easily feel that they are just forking out more and more money for no real benefit.

Recently I have been going out to watch instructors in clubs just to see what else is out there - often horrified at what I see - I know the instructors might mean well but they have often forgotton who they are dealing with. The people that are hardest to work with are the people who need the help most - but they don't need to learn obedience they need to learn how to handle their dog in different situations - on and off lead.

I shall give some quotes of comments that instructors have said to some of the class attendees I have watched:

"Don't waste my time - Ive got better things to do than be here with people who don't try"

"Get that dog out of here!"

"That (breed) are always a problem to train"

"Careful with your dog - move to the end and stay away from the others"

Clubs/Trainers have to start building and adapting their teaching skills. Not just in obedience but in what really is 'dog aggression' and what is really just 'social conflict'. Then learn how to deal with it and learn how to teach others about it. Most instructors want to run a mile as soon as a dog growls at another and if they do try to help, often just add fuel to the fire by adding more tension with tight leads. We should also be showing people how to work their dogs in tight situations to prevent aggressive responses in the first place.

There are many people who will never try to improve their dogs, but, when someone does take the trouble of going to a club/trainer then they should be able to get the help they need. If they have a positive experience they will tell others and this will encourage more people seek out help.

Edited November 26, 2010 by alpha bet

[Steve]

So do you think there is a need to try to do a survey or similar to tell us - who does , who doesn't , why they wont , why they cant, why they stop etc ?

Also do all trainers have the same target market or are they different for each. Is it economically viable to target one sector of the community over another?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

we need to find out what people want.

i want a dog that

doesn't bark

walks on a loose leash

doesn't rush other dogs or people

will wait

wont jump on people

isnt da or ha

has a good recall

and more and i wont find all of this in obedience clubs

eta mine does all of the above but i trained her myself because i have a lot of experience training my dogs to be well behaved

Edited November 26, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[BigPaws]

I have a lot of friends who have dogs and really love them, but they let them do whatever they want. I have tried making comments to them and also trained their dogs for them when they stay with me but they revert back to their unruly selves when they return home. I have no idea what you can do when people don't care if their dog is a pain in the butt.

Good luck!

[m-j]

"That (breed) are always a problem to train"

"Careful with your dog - move to the end and stay away from the others"

Oops I ahve been guilty of saying both of those things , but diplomatically and for good reason. I have used the not so easy dogs as a learning curve for not only the owners but the others in the class and made them sympathetic for both the dog and owner, obviously with the owners permission. The other owners I feel benefit from this when they see the improvement in the dog's behaviour.

So do you think there is a need to try to do a survey or similar to tell us - who does , who doesn't , why they wont , why they cant, why they stop etc ?

I think this could work, if distributed in the right places, vets, pet shops, breeders perhaps for a start??

Also do all trainers have the same target market or are they different for each.

Can't speak for others but I just take what comes, mainly from the vets, most of those being people with dogs with behaviour problems. I actually redirect people who want obedience classes to the local dog club, which I also instruct at. They cater for that, are closer to most of the people who contact me and as I mentioned I actually don't really enjoy the obedience as much.

Is it economically viable to target one sector of the community over another?

Not really as I have a set price. I am lucker than some as I use my own property and don't employ anyone, so my overheads aren't as steep.

[Staranais]

So do you think there is a need to try to do a survey or similar to tell us - who does , who doesn't , why they wont , why they cant, why they stop etc ?

I think this could work, if distributed in the right places, vets, pet shops, breeders perhaps for a start??

And maybe people leaving obedience schools - ask them if they're coming back next term, and if not, why not (i.e., did they achieve what they wanted to achieve, or just give up, and if so why?)

[Vickie]

This may be way off topic, or maybe not. I think it's worth thinking about anyway. We take our dogs away every year camping. At least every 2nd campsite has a dog. The vast majority of these dogs have good manners. I wonder if they are there b/c they have good manners or they have good manners b/c they are there?

Society in Australia in general does not accept dogs. We are not encouraged to take them travelling on holidays with us. They are not accepted in most accomodation situations, we don't take them shopping b/c we can't tie them up, Most beaches do not allow dogs, it is not the done thing to take them & sit in an outdoor cafe. All of these things can be done, but It is an effort to find all of the above.

I think puppy classes & obedience clubs have a long way to go. I hear so many people say that their dog is a monster after failing a free for all playtime puppy class. Obedience classes, likewise do not give the average dog owner useful skills.

Another big one for me is the change of family dynamics. Once upon a time, the mum was home all day with the dog or the dog went to work with dad. Now no-one is home all day & weekends are spent trying to have some quality time with kids in activities that do not include the family dog. I would love to see some 4H classes like they have in the US. Quality time with children & dogs in a recreational activity.

Media wise, people have access to Dr Harry or Caesar Milan. Again, hardly helpful for the average owner!

Edited November 26, 2010 by Vickie

[m-j]

So do you think there is a need to try to do a survey or similar to tell us - who does , who doesn't , why they wont , why they cant, why they stop etc ?

I think this could work, if distributed in the right places, vets, pet shops, breeders perhaps for a start??

And maybe people leaving obedience schools - ask them if they're coming back next term, and if not, why not (i.e., did they achieve what they wanted to achieve, or just give up, and if so why?)

That would seem like the obvious thing to do, but giving the results to a body that didn't provide the service will give you a more truthful response I think. I did a survey for the first several yrs when running my own dog training school, in which i asked for constructive criticism so I could improve my classes. Even though the surveys were anonymous I only got one negative response, as much as I would like to think I made everyone perfectly happy I don't believe it, maybe they were scared of me More a case of not wanting to upset/disappoint me I think??

I've actually made some good friends that I originally met as clients.

[Staranais]

So do you think there is a need to try to do a survey or similar to tell us - who does , who doesn't , why they wont , why they cant, why they stop etc ?

I think this could work, if distributed in the right places, vets, pet shops, breeders perhaps for a start??

And maybe people leaving obedience schools - ask them if they're coming back next term, and if not, why not (i.e., did they achieve what they wanted to achieve, or just give up, and if so why?)

That would seem like the obvious thing to do, but giving the results to a body that didn't provide the service will give you a more truthful response I think. I did a survey for the first several yrs when running my own dog training school, in which i asked for constructive criticism so I could improve my classes. Even though the surveys were anonymous I only got one negative response, as much as I would like to think I made everyone perfectly happy I don't believe it, maybe they were scared of me More a case of not wanting to upset/disappoint me I think??

I've actually made some good friends that I originally met as clients.

Yeah, you're right, would definitely have to be run by a neutral body. I've got to admit that I've rarely complained about dog training services, even when they were professionals that took my money & didn't help one iota. So I'd probably never complain about well meaning volunteer staff, even if they asked for feedback.

Perhaps another way to look at it is to survey people as to which problem they would most like to solve with their dog? Then target bite size classes towards those specific problems? Although I guess that sounds similar to what Erny has already tried, & she didn't get a huge response from. It's puzzling.

[espinay2]

I think if a survey is run, perhaps it needs to be more 'attitudinal'. For example - focussing on what they really want out of their dog. What they would like to be able to do. Asking them about their dogs behaviour - what is good and what they would like to change.

I personally see training as being about helping owners to have the relationship they want with their dogs.

I hear people say too that owners are stopping after a certain point and you dont see them at classes again - that they dont continue to take the dog to classes throughout the dogs life. I often see this said in a negative way. To my mind, if owners can achieve a relationship with their dogs that they are happy with after attending a basic puppy and/or beginners course, why should they continue to go to classes? If a trainer can assist a family to a good relationship with their dog in one session of classes I think that is ideal. Dog owners dont need to take a lifetime of classes to have a pet with good basic manners.

Definitely some may need more help. Quite a few years ago I was in the US and visited a training school a friend worked at. I liked their setup. In addition to the puppy and beginners classes they ran a 'terrible teens' class to try and bring people in at that next crucial stage in development - and the point when things often go wrong.

Back vto the survey - I think asking people to rate the training they have recieved is the wrong approach. Rather asking people what they want and need from training. That would help trainers better target what they provide. But I would think there would be a raft of studies out there already in this respect?

[alpha bet]

I have been running a survey for the last 6 months for my own use - surveying families about how they live with their dogs and what they want/need etc..... I have stood at some supermarkets and just stopped people randomly in the street and also been getting people from dog training classes to take surveys to work so that they are surveying general people rather than people already involved in the dog world.

Currently have nearly 200 back and hoping to get 3 to 400 before I start to compile the info.

I had been to see quite a few of the reseach results thru the DPI and spoken with some of the students conducting the surveys and was disappointed at the limited numbers. One of the studies was for 16 dogs another about 10 dogs and another is about to conduct a study using one dog. It made me feel that I cant take any of the results seriously.

Edited November 27, 2010 by alpha bet

[Steve]

I have been running a survey for the last 6 months for my own use - surveying families about how they live with their dogs and what they want/need etc..... I have stood at some supermarkets and just stopped people randomly in the street and also been getting people from dog training classes to take surveys to work so that they are surveying general people rather than people already involved in the dog world.

Currently have nearly 200 back and hoping to get 3 to 400 before I start to compile the info.

I had been to see quite a few of the reseach results thru the DPI and spoken with some of the students conducting the surveys and was disappointed at the limited numbers. One of the studies was for 16 dogs another about 10 dogs and another is about to conduct a study using one dog. It made me feel that I cant take any of the results seriously.

Actually I have a look at the surveys which are sometimes used as studies which have been conducted only on line and see the limited numbers and the high lean toward female respondents and feel the same way.

That is something we can do something about I think

Im about to open offers for people in on the working party for this.

[Rusky]

I train for a companion class which is run by three shires in conjunction with dogs west, we wish it were more. Rangers can refer dogs to the class, the ad runs in the community section of the paper and also CAWA refers dogs who are out of the ring due to a problem during a show. It can be an interesting mix. At the end of the 10 weeks some people enjoy training so much they join a local dog club for obedience or agility or sledding etc, plus they love to know they are not alone with their problems and forge friendships both canine and human.