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[Staranais]

I'm not sure if sending people to community obedience schools is always the way to go. I've been to a couple of obedience schools in the community, and most weren't delivering what people wanted. If I had to guess I'd say that most pet owners want firstly a recall and secondly a loose leash walk, reliably, within 6 or 12 weeks. Most people I see leaving the community dog training classes don't have that.

Most dogs in the community are not very well trained, IMO. Most of the dogs at our local dog park do not have a good reliable recall, most don't have a solid down stay. So people either don't know how to train these things, or they don't prioritise training them.

I don't have the answer. Perhaps having the council advertise & sponsor day courses for dog owners that cover specific skills, like "walk on a loose leash clinic" day, or "get your dog to come back every time when you call" day, with trainers who can work with each dog to achieve the desired goal using methods that suit that dog, & give a discount to owners who have completed them and passed the course for that specific skill?

[helen]

I attend a great training club on Thursday nights. Their training is all positive but the most important thing is that the club is not aimed at formal obedience, but toward having well behaved pets. The class sizes are small and there is no marching up and down, everything is practiced in your own little area. They even have stools to sit on while the instructor is talking and as a result the one thing dogs have to learn from the start is to sit or lay down nicely and quietly Some examples of things you will do there which is not present in a lot of clubs are go to your mat, to be examined all over including feet mouth and ears, how to approach when there is another unkown dog walking toward you (eg not dog to dog), loose lead walking and recall, and then they still do the normal exercises like sit, drop stay. They always have a fun night with games and a barbeque at the end of each term, instructors apply the positive reinforcement principles to their human students too and the whole tone of the club is fun. They also have Delta instructors so do classes aimed toward canine good citizen

Even though I can teach my dogs all this without help, it is great for socialising, actually giving you that push to do all these exercises and the learning to lie down still in that environment is priceless, easily transferred to cafes etc where my dog just lies down until someone comes to pat him :D

These classes are the most important part of the club but then you can go on and do fun activities like agility, flyball and tricks, which is what I am doing now. They will then have an occasional night where everyone goes for a social walk together instead of training, they only run school terms so there is school holidays for instructors and students. It really is a fun club and if more like this existed I think training would be more popular

Anyway point is that if there were more clubs like this maybe more people would be willing to attend.

Edited November 25, 2010 by helen

[SkySoaringMagpie]

But people have to want to have a well mannered dog. I am amazed how many people don't have basic manners with other people, how do you get them to teach manners to their dog if they don't have any themselves?

This is a big part of it I think. There are some aspects of canine "rudeness" that people who like to impose on others for fun find entertaining or even rather well intentioned people think is cute. Plus for some people, seeking "help" to train a dog when the pop culture messages say it is all about being the boss is hard to do.

Puppy pre-school has been a huge step forward conceptually, most well intentioned people will go to puppy class. Unfortunately not all are run well - they're not supposed to be a free for all but neither are they supposed to defeat the purpose of socialisation. I do think that obedience clubs need to run two streams. One for people who want an easy to live with well mannered pet, and one for people who want to trial and do dog sport. Finding enough skilled (with people) volunteer instructors is the bit that stops this happening plus some cultural views from old timers about "proper" training.

Our local club got a grant to give active instructors a $100 petrol card. That kind of thing is a good example of what we need in the way of support from Councils and sponsors - reward the people in the community who can make this happen. Preventive training for good manners is not expensive rocket science, the expensive rocket science comes later when no training has happened at all. Or the black plastic bag in the bin

EFS

Edited November 25, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'm not sure if sending people to community obedience schools is always the way to go. I've been to a couple of obedience schools in the community, and most weren't delivering what people wanted. If I had to guess I'd say that most pet owners want firstly a recall and secondly a loose leash walk, reliably, within 6 or 12 weeks. Most people I see leaving the community dog training classes don't have that.

I like your idea of "walk on a loose leash" day, or "house training day", partly because it doesn't ask people to bite off a whole heap and then chew hard.

Having been a volunteer instructor, my view is that the reasons for the failure rate are twofold. One is instructors who are good with their own dogs, but not very people savvy - droning on displaying their knowledge rather than teaching, or not honing in quickly on the handler's main malfunction and coming up with a suitable way to address that in a way that will stick. It's not usually the dog that has the problem. To be clear, I'm not bitching at volunteer instructors for that, they are at least showing up and they don't get paid. If they do get paid, then yes I am bitching about it

The other issue is that people just don't practice. I suspect part of that not practicing is because the syllabuses are often trying (admirably) to cover everything at the right stage of development. Your person with good self-discipline who will read the handout and do all the home work well for 5-10 minutes a day is usually 1 or 2 people in a class of 10-15. Your experienced dog person who has raised and trained 4 or 5 dogs does a lot of it by instinct, and forgets how hard and overwhelming it felt when you were completely new to it. Some dog people have never been "new" to it, being raised themselves in obedience or show homes.

And I have only taught in Canberra, which is a University/Public Service city where people are generally more educated and more familiar with "learning".

[Steve]

I'm not sure if sending people to community obedience schools is always the way to go. I've been to a couple of obedience schools in the community, and most weren't delivering what people wanted. If I had to guess I'd say that most pet owners want firstly a recall and secondly a loose leash walk, reliably, within 6 or 12 weeks. Most people I see leaving the community dog training classes don't have that.

Most dogs in the community are not very well trained, IMO. Most of the dogs at our local dog park do not have a good reliable recall, most don't have a solid down stay. So people either don't know how to train these things, or they don't prioritise training them.

I don't have the answer. Perhaps having the council advertise & sponsor day courses for dog owners that cover specific skills, like "walk on a loose leash clinic" day, or "get your dog to come back every time when you call" day, with trainers who can work with each dog to achieve the desired goal using methods that suit that dog, & give a discount to owners who have completed them and passed the course for that specific skill?

I like this idea too.

I think part of the answer lies in working out why people want dogs in their lives in the first place and appealing to that side of whats in it for me.

Some people do want a dog because its gives them opportunity to incorporate that into a social situation - just look at dogs online - the only thing you can pretty much guarantee is that we all have ownership of dogs in common .By coming her we each get different things from the experience basically because we all come and most definitely stay for different reasons.

Professional trainers - who do you see as your target market?

No amount of discounts on my rego would make me think it was worth it unless you could show me how else I would gain benefit.

[m-j]

The other issue is that people just don't practice. I suspect part of that not practicing is because the syllabuses are often trying (admirably) to cover everything at the right stage of development. Your person with good self-discipline who will read the handout and do all the home work well for 5-10 minutes a day is usually 1 or 2 people in a class of 10-15.

Even though I can teach my dogs all this without help, it is great for socialising, actually giving you that push to do all these exercises and the learning to lie down still in that environment is priceless, easily transferred to cafes etc where my dog just lies down until someone comes to pat him

This is why I used to run what I called socialising classes, where the only training that was done was sit or drop stay, heeling and being handled. This was then followed by a walk and then after the walk an informal "chat" about management and anything the people wanted to know. There were no grades and the aim was to make people aware of their and their dogs and other dogs ability, limitations and nature and how to deal with these things realistically. There was no pressure to practise but be aware that if you don't, you need to be responsible and manage your dog appropriately.

I found alot of people would come with aspirations of having a very obedient dog but when they realise that it can be alot of work and commitment they give up, letting these people realise that the dog just needs to be social I felt took the pressure off the owners thinking they had to have an obedient dog that knows lots of things and the shame that goes with a dog that isn't. The exercises I conducted in the short training session generalised those two cues so they could be used in real life situations. I also felt it took pressure off the dogs.

I found they were generally what people were more interested in and would keep coming back to rather than formal obedience and as an instructor I found them more interesting to run although very time consuming (some sessions would last up to 3 hrs), and due to work commitments I stopped them. Even with the people that didn't train much, I could see the dogs improving just with ongoing "exposure".

I find obedience very boring these days which is why I started these classes and as an instructor it doesn't thrill me to teach people stuff you can see they really don't want and in some cases need to know.

cheers

M-J

[pipsqueak]

Sorry, I've only skimmed the other replies.

In NSW we seem to have limited options for good manners training - and it is expensive. I've looked at classes that are from $150-$300 for 4 weeks. In this economic climate, a lot of people cannot afford that.

Somehow we need to work out how we can get small class sizes (4-8 max) at an affordable price, for people who want to teach their dog good manners. Even the dog training class run by a local community college is on the expensive side.

Most people I know who want to teach their dog good manners go from puppy pre-school to the local obedience club - many drop out because of the "paddock" bashing, and because they don't see what they're are being taught as being relevant to their needs. And, in a lot of cases, classes are huge, especially in the lower classes. At a local obedience class I went to, it wasn't unusual to have 20-25++ dogs in the beginners class... and often taught by the least experienced instructors!

I remember years ago being excited when I read about the Canine Good Citizen programme, then being disappointed in finding out that it was only offered in America at the time. I believe the CGC is offered in Victoria, and I know that some places in NSW offer it, but it seems in a lot of cases to be a watered down version. Also, a lot of people are not aware of it. I think somehow introducing this Australia-wide (or something similar, if people have a problem with Delta being behind CGC), might be a place to start.

In short:

- small, affordable classes at times that people can access them. I am thinking between $2-$5 a class.

- introduce a program Australia-wide aimed at obedient pets - CGC or similar

- somehow make it worthwhile for the most experience instructors to run these programs for "beginner dogs" - perhaps a council grant/subsidy??? To me, these classes being run by the least experienced instructors doesn't make sense, and is just asking for problems.

[Erny]

Perhaps having the council advertise & sponsor day courses for dog owners that cover specific skills, like "walk on a loose leash clinic" day, or "get your dog to come back every time when you call" day, with trainers who can work with each dog to achieve the desired goal using methods that suit that dog, & give a discount to owners who have completed them and passed the course for that specific skill?

I like this idea too.

I think part of the answer lies in working out why people want dogs in their lives in the first place and appealing to that side of whats in it for me.

Some people do want a dog because its gives them opportunity to incorporate that into a social situation - just look at dogs online - the only thing you can pretty much guarantee is that we all have ownership of dogs in common .By coming her we each get different things from the experience basically because we all come and most definitely stay for different reasons.

Professional trainers - who do you see as your target market?

No amount of discounts on my rego would make me think it was worth it unless you could show me how else I would gain benefit.

I offer the "Specialty Classes" for this sort of thing. It only comprised of about 3 class sequences. The first one to teach. The second one to check up on and coach/tweak to help people get it right and to fix up any little problems with it that still might be existing. The third one just to make sure all was good. The classes were very successful for those who came through them.

But there isn't huge enquiry for the Specialty Classes - although perhaps that's my lack of marketing skills showing up. I also found that a good number of the people who did enquire were people who didn't have weekend time to attend 'normal' classes - they just wanted those one or two things and they wanted/needed them during the week/at odd hours. What I could fit in for some, didn't suit some others and vice versa. I did find that there were a few people who wanted to proceed further once they'd established the "specialty" skill they'd originally sought, so it is something that could even prove enough to induce people to continue with training, which is a good thing. However I also found that they wanted to increase the number of skills inside the 3 lessons they'd purchased. Some others thought they would like to increase skills learnt but each had their mindset on the classes running at days and times to suit each one of them individually - and this didn't work. Again though, it was something that I probably didn't market properly or fully as I became more busy with the other things I was doing.

I haven't pushed this side of things for a while but I can tell you I haven't had an enquiry about it for quite some time either. Plans are in the pipeline however for our classes to incorporate these lessons as a fast track over and beyond what we offer in our 'normal' classes.

Something to think about is that with people only learning one or two things, they are potentially going to expect the costs for that tuition to be less as well and that isn't necessarily going to be an easy thing - at least not for private trainers who need to pay instructors, hire grounds. The Private Trainers would potentially be up for the same overhead costs regardless of how many skills they might be teaching in the one lesson.

Sorry - rambling a little bit and not intending to be a wet blanket. I think it is a good idea. If I didn't, I wouldn't have created Pro-K9's "Specialty Class" service in the first place, nor to consider a revamp of our current class structure to incorporate them. But thought my thoughts and experiences might be worth something as at least food for thought.

[emery]

Good ideas, for some location is an issue.

i work nights and training is sunday morning so by then i am stuffed and it requires an hour drive some days i make an effort to get up when the alarm goes off other days i roll over as th club closest to me i do not agree with their techniques.

*(told me to put a dog afraid of cars just pick it up and throw it in the car whilst dog is pulling backwards away from car.*ahhhhh no i want to treat the dog for taking small steps towards its fear not instill the fear in more*)

I don't think our local counils offer discounts for trained dogs so maybe that could be an australia wide thing.

[Cosmolo]

$2-$5 a class with small class sizes will not even cover the public liability insurance requirements and ground hire, let alone everything else.

Personally, in many cases that i see- cost is not the issue. Priority and inclination are the issues and that is much more difficult to change.

[pipsqueak]

$2-$5 a class with small class sizes will not even cover the public liability insurance requirements and ground hire, let alone everything else.

Personally, in many cases that i see- cost is not the issue. Priority and inclination are the issues and that is much more difficult to change.

That may be the case, but the question was asked "how do we make a difference", and I provided a suggestion. The question wasn't is it feasible or not. Fact is, for some people paying $25-60 per class to get the class size they need is NOT within their means. I also suggested that a council grant/subsidy might help address the cost issue.

As a professional, for people who you see cost might not be an issue. For me, as a member of the public, cost is an issue for me - and also for people I know. If cost is prohibitive for an individual, it means that training will be given a lower priority and perhaps also affect a person's inclination. However, I am also aware of the argument that people only value what they pay (substantially) for.

I thought my contributions as a member of the public (who one day hopes to perhaps become a dog trainer) might be considered to be of some value. Obviously not, so I will leave the professional trainers to discuss the matter.

Edited November 26, 2010 by futuredogtrainer

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

Hi

In NSW we only register our dogs once for life so there are no renewals , I think it would be good to offer a paid for voucher with registration for a few classes with a club that is in the area of the council when registering , most dogs being registered are between 3 and 6 months old just at the age where people start to look for ways to control their pups behaviour ,

If the cost of these were to be inclusive in the registration fee along with a reduction of costs to the club who is hiring the ground to help them reduce their costs in overheads and reduce class sizes having a little more cash available to them they may be able to increase instructor levels as well.

I also think that in these classes a few easy tricks ( shake hands , say grace , ) as well as examples of scent games will keep people coming back ( just swap it for /2 the field bash time ) .

I have to say that not one of my dogs or me are having fun after 10 mins up and down the field heeling , its as boring as hell and its hard to keep drive going to do it , we have a very good heel and loose lead walk and we did not get it that way

[Erny]

$2-$5 a class with small class sizes will not even cover the public liability insurance requirements and ground hire, let alone everything else.

Personally, in many cases that i see- cost is not the issue. Priority and inclination are the issues and that is much more difficult to change.

That may be the case, but the question was asked "how do we make a difference", and I provided a suggestion. The question wasn't is it feasible or not. ... I thought my contributions as a member of the public (who one day hopes to perhaps become a dog trainer) might be considered to be of some value. Obviously not, so I will leave the professional trainers to discuss the matter.

Your contribution IS VERY MUCH of value and appreciated, so please don't stop. Counter "argument" (for want of better word) is only put up by way of being conversational .... we need to look at all sides of everything so that we can take an idea, squeak it, mould it, change its shape and finally (hopefully) come up with ideas that have always been fantastic, but perhaps are now even more workable.

There was no offence intended by my contribution FDT and if I quote someone it's usually so that people have an understanding of what line of thinking I'm running with.

So please do continue to help out with the brain storming, FDT.

ETA: And in fact, some of the ideas and comments that are made here may well be some things that will also assist you in your quest as a dog-trainer further down the track .

Edited November 26, 2010 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

I didn't say your contribution was not valuable. :mad Merely trying to encourage future discussion regarding the issues involved with cost reduction and the "how's". I didn't mean to suggest it was a bad suggestion at all- just taht the how's of implementing it can be tricky.

I didn't say cost isn't an issue for some- of course it is. But sometimes, people have the means and still lack the motivation.

The issue with getting councils involved is that many state it is against their council policies to support business of any kind. Its to the point where trainers offering free seminars etc for responsible dog ownership are knocked back, so i am not sure whether they would be willing to subsidise paid training at all.

So an interesting question/ answer would be- how do we get the councils on board?

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

Hi Cosmolo

I was thinking of the breed and ANKC clubs , these are funded by membership fees and are not for profit so not a business as I understand it ( correct me if I am wrong my experiences are a few years ago now).

annual membership used to be a small fee with weekly classes also being a nominal amount , not all councils have an all breeds club in their areas but in NSW the registration fee is the same regardless of the council as it is set by state legislation perhaps an agreement with adjoining council areas who do have not for profit membership clubs could be used ?

[pipsqueak]

Cosmo/Erny - sorry I took offence - I over-reacted I'm feeling very sleep deprived at the moment, so not thinking so clearly, and hence reacted.

As far as getting councils involved/onside, that is tough. Somehow it has to be proven to them that their involvement benefits not only the community, but also the council itself - the "what's in it for us" mentality. Perhaps if they can be persuaded that by supporting education of the public, and hopefully better behaved dogs, there will be less need for policing... but then again, that affects their revenue, doesn't it?! I know what I'm trying to say, but I cannot find the words to explain it at the moment. Less noise complaints about barking dogs might free up their resources to deal with other things.

I think with the council, it will need change from the inside - a change in their mentality from being reactive to being proactive about problems. I'm not sure how you achieve this...

[kateshep]

Just to add on to what has already been said, a major problem I have encountered from many trainers & clubs in W.A, is the outright disregard to embrace other dog training methods that are not considered "purely positive" ( referring to clickers & treats only trainers- halti's usually acceptable- no correction collars- most trainers will know what I mean ). This is a huge welfare issue imho for stronger willed/larger/dominant dogs which are not always going to fit only into that style of training.

Once the initial teaching is done with treats ect, some dogs may still need a correction to inhibit bad manners.

We need a mentality shift and should try to educate & encourage more people to adapt methods to suit the dog's temperament and not have them all fall under the same umbrella with the same techniques.

Having preferences for certain training techniques is fine as long as it doesn't affect the welfare of the dogs.

I know it's the same issue Australia wide.

[Cosmolo]

Thats true kateshep- i think the way to deal with that is to have training options that differ- not just ANKC clubs etc. I believe Perth has far fewer options in that respect than many other states.

So therein lies another issue- how do we decide which trainers to subsidise/ send people do? How do we not impact fair trade and competition in doing this?

What about if each organisation recommended had to be affiliated with any of the below to qualify for some kind of promotion/subsidy scheme?

ANKC

NDTF

Delta

Would that exclude anyone? Then information coudl be provided on all of those organisations and dog owners then need to choose where they go.

Now, how to get the councils on board and do we need subsidies if all of the above are involved? In some areas, there are multiple economical options, in other areas there are not. Do you have a blanket subsidy or a subsidy for certain people or certain places?

[ness]

don't get the council started on titles - my girl has two titles but never got a Basic Obedience certificate and the local council had no clue so even though she is trained a level well beyond "Basic Obedience" I still don't get the $4 trained dog discount.

Maybe somebody should educate the council a little better .

[Natsu chan]

We just need to find away to make good manners more socially valuable then peer pressure does the rest.

In my view dogs with their OC should have free rego, now before every one goes oh but the average Joe will never get an OC on their dog so why bother, let me say that if that is offered and a flier is put in with each new puppy/dog registration disk that would really show people that having a well trained dog is considered to be a very good thing. At the moment in Victoria you might as well not bother there's simply no reason to except for self gratification. People who get high level titles on their dogs are far more likely to be responsible and knowledgeable and this should be rewarded and encouraged.

Council should provide incentives, demos of CGC tests at council days and may be demos of other things like flyball and agility. Puppy rego should come with a local information list of local clubs and trainers possibly even vets and groomers, if the businesses paid say $10 dollars or so a year and rego went up a $1 per dog that should cover the cost it need not be flashy or expensive.

What needs to happen most of all is to make the well behaved dog a valued and admired member of the community again.

Barbara Woodhouse use to say that a dog should be "a pleasure to all and a nuisance to no one" and that's how it should be.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Natsu chan