Just Experienced A Japanese Pet Shop.

[BJean]

Why should we be ashamed of live exports and 'factory' farming? And the term 'factory' farming is a made up term courtesy of PETA. The correct industry term is 'intensive' and 'non intensive'.

Live exports account for a major part of our economy. Have you actually been onboard a ship and witnessed with your own two eyes how the sheep are transported? Obviously you haven't. They are kept in fine conditions. No worse than when they are kept in the shearing shed while sick or during shearing.

All pork sold in supermarkets with a bone in it is Australian Pork. Retailers are not allowed to import any pork with a bone in, so if you want to make sure you are eating Aussie pork, go for roasts and chops, quite simple really. Sow stalls are a necessary evil, would you like to be a 500 gram piglet being rolled onto by a 200 kilo+ sow? They do not live in the sow stalls, they birth in there. End of story.

Enjoy your free range chicken, but know that you are no better off eating that than eating a nice piece of light deprived milky veal. Both are raised indoors and under lights.

This forum is a breeding ground for misinformation. If you want to bag farmers and the livestock industry, for gods sakes get your facts right first!

That is absolutely ridiculous. You know what, when sows aren't kept in ridiculously small areas they DON'T crush their young! Sow stalls are a necessary evil because of what we have created.

I find it pretty ironic that people would be so against puppy farming and defend factory farming (yes, intensive farming). I guess because they are just pigs and chickens who gives a shit, yeah?

ETA: the problem with live exports is not the way they are transported. It's the fact that they are exported to countries with next to no animal welfare laws, that do NOT adhere to our Australian standards. Once thy are off the boat we have no way to control how they are treated or slaughtered. They are commonly put in car boots and strapped to roof racks and each other. Seems you are the one who needs to underhand what goes on.

I have my facts straight and first hand. I don't just read of a website and pretend to know. I am a primary producer, we live export, and I am happy with the way it it undertaken. What happens to the sheep on the other side of the world is not my concern, nor do I have any right to dictate to people in another country, of another religion or custom, how to treat their food. And what proof do you have of sows not crushing their piglets when not in stalls? What website have you googled to get that snippet of info?

Yep so many instant internet experrrrrrrrrrrrts.

well said.

[raz]

I also believe that live export should be avoided if possible but until we can convince the export countries to accept processed product I don't see how to improve it.

Do you mean the third world countries live exports are sent to?

They cant accept processed meat products - most of them live hours away from where the meat is brought in and dont have refrigeration. Better Aus that sends in the livestock with a vet on each boat and a highly regulated industry rather than sending in animals from unregulated countries like Somalia and Sudan where most of the animals will be dead before they even get there.

But that's really beside the point of this thread. To the OP - so did you shoot off a letter to The Japan Times about the state of those hole in the wall petshops in Japan? The shop has probably moved on now anyway, especially if they had Appendix 1 animals for sale.

Edited November 27, 2010 by raz

[melzawelza]

ETA: the problem with live exports is not the way they are transported. It's the fact that they are exported to countries with next to no animal welfare laws, that do NOT adhere to our Australian standards. Once thy are off the boat we have no way to control how they are treated or slaughtered. They are commonly put in car boots and strapped to roof racks and each other.

Then take it up with the countries who have the lousy standards!!!!

GET OFF THE AUSTRALIAN BREEDERS BACKS!

The animals to which you refer are a food item and the breeders cannot dictate nor enforce what happens to the animals once they land on other shores. If you feel so strongly about these issues take yourself to those countries and seek change where it is needed and see how you go there.

Souff

Ok Souff, to try and vaguely get back to the initial topic - I hope if i delved back through your posts I wouldn't see you in threads discussing the exports of whole registered litters to Japan damning these breeders. To follow your logic then what happens to the pups when they get there is none of the breeders concern and everyone on here needs to shut up and get off the breeders backs. If anyone here has a problem with the way the pups are treated once they get to japan, they need to take it up with japan. It's none of the breeders concern as to what happens when they get there

Sorry, but this is an awful way to think. Of course it is the breeder's concern - breed a pup and you are responsible for its welfare. I am amazed that you actually think it is okay for a responsible breeder to think that way. :D

I think you missed my point. I am in 100% aggreeance with you, I was making the point that if that is he way souff feels about live export then she must also feel that way about Australian dog breeders who ship whole litters over to japan knowing the way they will be treated. Seems she does think that's fine and that isn't something I can continue to argue with, as we fundamentally have very different beliefs and we aren't going to change each others minds. I also don't care

For being called an animal libber that wants to stop dog breeding and to 'switch my brain on' because I have a different viewpoint so im going to leave it there.

I also believe that live export should be avoided if possible but until we can convince the export countries to accept processed product I don't see how to improve it.

Do you mean the third world countries live exports are sent to?

They cant accept processed meat products - most of them live hours away from where the meat is brought in and dont have refrigeration. Better Aus that sends in the livestock with a vet on each boat and a highly regulated industry rather than sending in animals from unregulated countries like Somalia and Sudan where most of the animals will be dead before they even get there.

But that's really beside the point of this thread. To the OP - so did you shoot off a letter to The Japan Times about the state of those hole in the wall petshops in Japan? The shop has probably moved on now anyway, especially if they had Appendix 1 animals for sale.

Hey Raz, I'm still in Japan until mid December and only have my iPhone while I'm here so don't really have the means or time to construct a letter to the editor. However as soon as I'm home I'll be writing it. I'll PM it to you if you like, Raz? I wont post it here anymore.

[raz]

Hey Raz, I'm still in Japan until mid December and only have my iPhone while I'm here so don't really have the means or time to construct a letter to the editor. However as soon as I'm home I'll be writing it. I'll PM it to you if you like, Raz? I wont post it here anymore.

Sure. If the shop is still there and you can get pics of animals listed on CITES it would really pull more weight but feel free to PM me. They are a member of CITES which is why those horrible filthy shops pack up and move address so quickly. Really distressing, though, so dont go back in if it's going to wreck your time away. Enjoy your time in Japan which is otherwise an amazing place.

[melzawelza]

Hey Raz, what do you mean by CITES? I'm not sure what that is. We're here for one more day but I'm not 100% sure I can handle going back. I might try today if I can.

[raz]

Here tis. http://www.cites.org/

I just think you've got better chance of getting a journo to run with the story if that shop is selling endangered animals. Crappy awful pet shops selling sick puppies and kittens lying in shitty little plastic boxes are a dime a dozen in Japan and not much we can do about it from over here, but if they're in contravention of international government trade agreements re exotic animal trade then you can get CITES to crack down on them

[melzawelza]

Bugger. They didn't have anything exotic (which is a good thing really) only puppies and a few kittens.

[Gallomph]

Actually, Australian pig farmers just voted to voluntarily phase out sow stalls. Just announced this week

Thank goodness.

ETA: pity they're not also phasing in something like the Weribee pen systems or Ellipsoid crate system for farrowing to replace regular sow crates. Both provide better sow welfare & no more piglet crushings than regular sow crates. However, that would require people to pay more for their pork, since they allow the sow much more room (hence, fewer sows can be farmed per square meter of land - costs farmers more to produce each piglet). As a previous poster mentioned, many consumers would rather source cheaper offshore pork than more expensive humane locally produced pork. So, we can't just blame the famers - we as consumers determine what they produce by what we will pay for.

Both of those systems were invented about 20 years ago, and have never been successful in any commercial farm because the crushing levels are still a lot higher than regular crates. The only places they seem to be successful is in uni or ag college research units, which have relatively few sows and very high supervision of sows and piglets by staff and students doing research projects.

They have resurrected the idea of the Werribee pen again recently, made some modifications, and trials are under way. We'll see how they go. Even if an acceptable solution is found, it would take many years to implement change. Not only because of the hundreds of millions of dollars of capital that would be required to retrofit existing buildings - but because more buildings would have to be constructed - this requires getting planning permission (almost impossible in some areas), getting finance (ditto), getting tradies (ditto) etc etc. Then there are massive WHS issues for staff working with unrestrained sows and their litters. The sows weigh up to 350kgs, and can do serious damage to a person when they get cranky! And so on.. Lots of things to consider - the devil's in the details!

[Souff]

I was making the point that if that is he way souff feels about live export then she must also feel that way about Australian dog breeders who ship whole litters over to japan knowing the way they will be treated. Seems she does think that's fine and that isn't something I can continue to argue with, as we fundamentally have very different beliefs and we aren't going to change each others minds. I also don't care For being called an animal libber that wants to stop dog breeding and to 'switch my brain on' because I have a different viewpoint so im going to leave it there.

You have a nerve. Do not insinuate that I approve of mass export of dogs! I most certainly do not and never have done. Not to Japan, or to any other country.

YOU WERE THE ONE WHO DRAGGED IN THE LIVE SHEEP EXPORT TRADE INTO THIS THREAD - TOTALLY UNWARRANTED AND TOTALLY UNRELATED TO A JAPANESE PET SHOP.

It is a totally different ball game, has NOTHING to do with scummy pet shops in Japan, and obviously a trade with which you are MISERABLY OUT OF DATE.

Raz has given you a very good tip, take the matter of the Japanese pet shop up with a journalist over there. There are also international bodies who do care about issues like these pet shops.

Stop giving Australia an unwarranted bad name!

As I said before, animal welfare standards in Australia are now up there with the best.

Get some up to date facts before you start bagging Australian farmers on the internet.

Souff

[melzawelza]

Souff, I honestly don't want to have this conversation anymore. Can we agree to disagree? I HAVE done research into the subject and I have my opinion on the matter and I have the right to not be insulted or yelled at for it.

I compared live exports to breeders who export their litters as to me it is an almost identical issue. You made the point that farmers should have no concern over what happens to their sheep when they get overseas, and I asked if you felt the same way about dog breeders and from your reply it seemed that you did. That is why I said we'd have to agree to disagree because we have two fundementally different views on the subject. I belibe farmers AND breeders should be responsible for their animals, and no knowingly send them to unsavory conditions, and it seemed you believed the opposite. I apologize if I have gotten the wrong end of the stick here, but I don't see how the two situations are any different except that one is a meat animal.

You're right Raz gave me some fantastic advice and I will be using that advice once I return to Australia.

[raz]

Here you go Melza. Interesting article:

http://weekenderjapan.com/?p=13619

which is where I found the animal welfare group in Japan

http://www.alive-net.net/english/index.html

And to give people a better idea of the sort of shitty shop melza was so upset by

http://www.alive-net.net/english/en-compan...ka-petshop.html

Edited November 27, 2010 by raz

[Souff]

Souff, I honestly don't want to have this conversation anymore. Can we agree to disagree? I HAVE done research into the subject and I have my opinion on the matter and I have the right to not be insulted or yelled at for it.

I compared live exports to breeders who export their litters as to me it is an almost identical issue. You made the point that farmers should have no concern over what happens to their sheep when they get overseas, and I asked if you felt the same way about dog breeders and from your reply it seemed that you did. That is why I said we'd have to agree to disagree because we have two fundementally different views on the subject. I belibe farmers AND breeders should be responsible for their animals, and no knowingly send them to unsavory conditions, and it seemed you believed the opposite. I apologize if I have gotten the wrong end of the stick here, but I don't see how the two situations are any different except that one is a meat animal.

You're right Raz gave me some fantastic advice and I will be using that advice once I return to Australia.

You are avoiding the core issue MelzeWelza. You started out moaning about a pet shop in faraway Japan, a pet shop that presumably has little or no connection with Australian dog breeders, and then you aligned that situation with the live export of SHEEP from Australia! Wakie, wakie MelzaWelza!

There was no reason to align these two issues ...... NONE AT ALL.

The Japanese pet shop is not selling live sheep from Australia, or if they are you forgot to mention it.

Get back to the real reason for our disagreement, MelzaWelza.

No avoidance tactics. No smokescreens. That was the core issue that made me so angry.

Aussie sheep farmers reputations do not need to be dragged through the mud of the internet when the issue is really about a low grade pet shop in Japan.

Souff

Edited November 28, 2010 by Souff

[OSoSwift]

It is awful to see puppies, kittens and well any animal in conditions such as those.

There are some countries whose animals welfare practices and human welfare practices I do not agree with or condone therefore I will never visit those countries so I do not give their economy money or help these practices continue in any way by going to their country and spending my money.

I am also a primary producer. The welfare of my animals is my number one priority. If my animals are not healthy happy and well looked after then I will not have good birth, survival or sale rates.

It is very difficult to compare litters of puppies and mobs of sheep or cattle. Sheep and cattle are raised for consumption therefore they are going to be eaten (die) that is why they are bred. Puppies (and other animals) are bred to be companion animals and pets.

I love my cattle and I know individuals within my herd, but at the end of the day they are bred to be sold by me and eaten by the consumer. My dogs are not. There purpose in life is completely different. I do not cry when my calves go on the truck, but when a puppy leaves, well that is a different story.

My cattle are well looked after, have medical attention as required and any and all care that is required to raise beef cattle.

Some days are hard when you have a 3 and 5 year old and there are some days you check cows, have to pull a calf, go out to do the next check and find another needing help, so back to pulling a calf again. Mean while you have two children that have hardly seen their mum and a meal that needs putting on the table and kids to be bathed and dressed and put to bed. Or you sit in the paddock in the freezing cold quietly monitoring a cow birthing as she seems to be working a bit hard and you might need to help her out at 10pm. I do it because I love it.

I love and have pride in the animals I have and the ones I produce. It really annoys me when people try to paint the producer or farmer as the bad person that locks up animals and tortures them. It is crap and very demeaning to myself and I am sure others in my position. I look after my cattle as if I didn't I would not have the success I have and I would not have a 100% live at 12 months record, and yes that included calves that needed help and some who had to be hand raised. I would not have 100% pregnancy and live calf and live at 12 months in a mob of my cows if I didn't do my job properly. I am sure mnay people do have an idea but from where I am sitting many people would not know about farming if it was a sharp stick that poked them in the eye!

[melzawelza]

From what you have described, it sounds like you look after your cattle extremely well. There ARE farmers out there doing the right thing, and I commend you and them. I may not eat meat but that is not because I dot believe in eating animals - it's because it's nigh on impossible to source it from somewhere I trust. However from your description, I would probably happily eat the meat raised by you, as it seems you treat the animals well and with respect, which they deserve.

Raz, thanks for those links! The first article puts a lot of it into perspective. The pet shop I saw was like the ones described in that article. That was the one bearable thing was that at least the cages were fairly clean, even if the pups had no fresh air. The one in your last link is just SICKENING.

[raz]

Interesting that the journo says the exotics were probably hidden out the back. They werent when I was in Japan - fully on display in those shitty stinky cages. It might be an interesting exercise for you when you get back to make enquiries to see if that journo is still with the publication and ask if they want to do a follow up story from a tourist's perspective. The Japanese are very self conscious about how they are portrayed to visiting foreigners.

[melzawelza]

That is a really good idea. The 'tourist' thing is what I was hoping to put emphasis on for that very reason.