Crate Games

[Kavik]

One very important things I learned at the Susan Garrett seminar was how she manages to train her dogs without the use of corrections. She is very disciplined in her interactions with her dogs - not just when training but all the time (she stresses the importance of what the dog does and how it acts the other 23 hrs of the day you are not training). She teaches self control exercises through Crate Games and It's Yer Choice from when they are puppies as well as drive building exercises, and the use of choice and making the dog think is paramount in her philosophy to training. I don't think everybody would be able to be as disciplined and consistent in their interactions with their dogs as she is, it is hard to remember all the time She certainly let the students know when and where they have been slack with their training As she says positive is NOT permissive! I have a LOT of respect for her and it was amazing to watch the best in the world and hear how they train.

Not all trainers who don't like to use corrections or who don't like prong collars or who like haltis are the same, they all have different levels of expertise and handling experience. I'm not sure Susan Garrett would behave in the manner of the person you described 55chevy.

She also does specialise in agility and does some obedience, but she says she gets Schutzhund people coming to her seminars too.

She would not likely have one of her own dogs act like that Mal x Dutchie and come uplead because if it was her dog she would have done her foundation work exercises and the dog would have learnt self control and what would get it satisfaction (which would not be growling or coming uplead!) from a young age.

ETA: She was also inspirational in that she says not to put limits on your dog because eg it is from a shelter or has fear issues or confidence issues. From her accounts her dog Decaf had quite a few temperament related issues she had to work through and Decaf is an amazing world winning agility dog!

Edited November 24, 2010 by Kavik

[kelpiechick]

Susan Garrett's work is method based and she's a major supporter of anti-cruelty movements in dog training which is a fine approach for some dogs, but not all.

The point of sharing this story, Bronte was too much dog for Susan Garrett training methods to apply. Any trainer so hung up on methodology to prefer a dog be PTS to save it from suffering the aversion from a prong collar to shape the dog into a decent canine being IMHO is not a trainer's bootlace

So you're suggesting with your first sentence that cruelty is a better approach for some dogs? Your word not mine and a strange choice.

No, the point of sharing the story was so you could sound off about training methods that you appear to have no experience with other than watching one particular trainer use what you label 'SG methods' - agree with Kavik that she wouldn't have gone about it in that manner either BTW- and that one experience plus no doubt a ton of hearsay from others makes you an expert in condemning all positive methodology.

If these comments were reversed and a positive trainer had jumped on here and labelled 'balanced' training in the derogoratory terms that you used this thread would now be 110 pages long with complaints, you only have to ask an innocent question about a prong collar to get 20 people jumping down your throat.

Good idea you have decided to stay out of the discussion as the OP asked for constructive comments from those who have experience with training crate games, not for close minded opinionated labels concerning training methods.

[corvus]

The point of sharing this story, Bronte was too much dog for Susan Garrett training methods to apply.

You're serious, aren't you? That story proves nothing. For all we know the prong collar caused/perpetuated the aggression. For all we know this "Susan Garrett" trainer was a shite trainer. What would that prove? Nothing about the methods at all.

Staff'n'Toller has your number all right. Honestly, these characters pop up and disappear after making a royal fool of themselves in such a cyclical manner I'm beginning to think every one of them is the same person.

[Agility Dogs]

She also does specialise in agility and does some obedience, but she says she gets Schutzhund people coming to her seminars too.

Yep. Cathy who organised Susan's trip to Aust has been a Schutz competitor in the past and will be again.

[55chevy]

I actually find your 'tree hugger' label quite offensive, and I'm pretty open minded when it comes to training methods! By all means state your opinion regarding different methods, but name calling isn't really necessary.

There are good trainers and there are bad trainers, whatever the method, different methods work on different dogs, Susan Garrett is a highly respected trainer who specialises in agility, not protection work. Agility is mostly trained with positive methods and that's fine because it is supposed to be fun for the dog and handler. Not quite sure what your anti 'tree hugger' post has to do with crate games anyway, which is supposed to be a fun positive way to build value for a crate and use it as a tool in agility training?

Amypie,

I think colourful descriptions are warranted when dogs lives are lost from methodoligist trainer's inability to train and rehabilitate a dog purely on the basis of refusing to use particular training methods. A good trainer will determine which methods to use on each individual dog in the dog's best interests, not in the best interests of their methodology and unfortunately, Susan Garrett tops the list of methodoligist trainers and for that reason, I have little respect for her. The reason I have little respect for methodoligist trainers, is that they would prefer to have a dog PTS when it doesn't respond to their methods over applying another method of training to rehabilitate the dog's behaviour and allow the dog to live it's life.

I apologise for having a problem with dogs facing death row at the hands of methodoligist trainers recommendation for euthanasia when their training methods fail with a particular dog. Susan Garrett and trainers who aspire to her methods have and do provided some wonderful training results and they have many great concepts, but they also have some poor concepts that cause the unnecessary euthanasia of dogs that are easily rehabilitated had these trainers applied methods outside of their square. It's more important for these trainer's career to spruke about their success in training without applying corrections, but what they don't tell us is what happens to their failures which are sadly PTS.

I would absolutely guarantee that a balanced trainer like for example Steve Courtney (K9pro) would have more success in crate games over a wider range of dogs than Susan Garrett, Steve may even use an Ecollar on some to get the right response where Susan's methods would write those dogs off

Edited November 25, 2010 by 55chevy

[Agility Dogs]

I actually find your 'tree hugger' label quite offensive, and I'm pretty open minded when it comes to training methods! By all means state your opinion regarding different methods, but name calling isn't really necessary.

There are good trainers and there are bad trainers, whatever the method, different methods work on different dogs, Susan Garrett is a highly respected trainer who specialises in agility, not protection work. Agility is mostly trained with positive methods and that's fine because it is supposed to be fun for the dog and handler. Not quite sure what your anti 'tree hugger' post has to do with crate games anyway, which is supposed to be a fun positive way to build value for a crate and use it as a tool in agility training?

Amypie,

I think colourful descriptions are warranted when dogs lives are lost from methodoligist trainer's inability to train and rehabilitate a dog purely on the basis of refusing to use particular training methods. A good trainer will determine which methods to use on each individual dog in the dog's best interests, not in the best interests of their methodology and unfortunately, Susan Garrett tops the list of methodoligist trainers and for that reason, I have little respect for her. The reason I have little respect for methodoligist trainers, is that they would prefer to have a dog PTS when it doesn't respond to their methods over applying another method of training to rehabilitate the dog's behaviour and allow the dog to live it's life.

I apologise for having a problem with dogs facing death row at the hands of methodoligist trainers recommendation for euthanasia when their training methods fail with a particular dog. Susan Garrett and trainers who aspire to her methods have and do provided some wonderful training results and they have many great concepts, but they also have some poor concepts that cause the unnecessary euthanasia of dogs that are easily rehabilitated had these trainers applied methods outside of their square. It's more important for these trainer's career to spruke about their success in training without applying corrections, but what they don't tell us is what happens to their failures which are sadly PTS.

Chevy, I don't think you'll find Susan Garrett is out there spruiking her ability to rehabilitate dogs - that is not her bag. She has published Ruff Luv and that did work for her and her dog, but to my knowledge she does not profess to be in teh business of fixing damaged dogs.

I understand your issues with trainers who only use one method and have a blinkered approach, but until you have seen her or her staff train in the context in which they specialise I don't see how your opinions are valid or are contributing to the conversation.

[55chevy]

I actually find your 'tree hugger' label quite offensive, and I'm pretty open minded when it comes to training methods! By all means state your opinion regarding different methods, but name calling isn't really necessary.

There are good trainers and there are bad trainers, whatever the method, different methods work on different dogs, Susan Garrett is a highly respected trainer who specialises in agility, not protection work. Agility is mostly trained with positive methods and that's fine because it is supposed to be fun for the dog and handler. Not quite sure what your anti 'tree hugger' post has to do with crate games anyway, which is supposed to be a fun positive way to build value for a crate and use it as a tool in agility training?

Amypie,

I think colourful descriptions are warranted when dogs lives are lost from methodoligist trainer's inability to train and rehabilitate a dog purely on the basis of refusing to use particular training methods. A good trainer will determine which methods to use on each individual dog in the dog's best interests, not in the best interests of their methodology and unfortunately, Susan Garrett tops the list of methodoligist trainers and for that reason, I have little respect for her. The reason I have little respect for methodoligist trainers, is that they would prefer to have a dog PTS when it doesn't respond to their methods over applying another method of training to rehabilitate the dog's behaviour and allow the dog to live it's life.

I apologise for having a problem with dogs facing death row at the hands of methodoligist trainers recommendation for euthanasia when their training methods fail with a particular dog. Susan Garrett and trainers who aspire to her methods have and do provided some wonderful training results and they have many great concepts, but they also have some poor concepts that cause the unnecessary euthanasia of dogs that are easily rehabilitated had these trainers applied methods outside of their square. It's more important for these trainer's career to spruke about their success in training without applying corrections, but what they don't tell us is what happens to their failures which are sadly PTS.

Chevy, I don't think you'll find Susan Garrett is out there spruiking her ability to rehabilitate dogs - that is not her bag. She has published Ruff Luv and that did work for her and her dog, but to my knowledge she does not profess to be in teh business of fixing damaged dogs.

I understand your issues with trainers who only use one method and have a blinkered approach, but until you have seen her or her staff train in the context in which they specialise I don't see how your opinions are valid or are contributing to the conversation.

The problem I have with Susan Garrett personally, is that she is major motivator of anti aversion training groups outside of her agility specialisation which spills over into the greater dog population where her concepts don't work. Her training camps which accept all breeds and types are strictly no choker, prong and E collar camps is the wrong concept for breeds and types outside of her 30cm agility success.

[Vickie]

55chevy,

can I respectfully ask you to take your anti Susan Garrett posts & put them in another thread please.

THIS thread is about my 11 year old daughter training her very stable terrier mix in agility. Personally I don't do Susan Garrett, although I respect her, I have chosen another style of training...hence my reason for asking questions for a program I think will suit my child & her dog.

Thank you.

[Kavik]

Susan Garrett does not profess to be a behaviourist or someone who deals with behavioural problems, but a trainer who specialises in competition agility (and who enjoys obedience too). As she does not try to rehabilitate dogs, I'm not sure where you get a ratio of 'success' and 'failure' She is not about fixing aggression or anything like that.

You are not allowed correction collars at her camps, but you are not allowed correction collars at any agility clubs either. They are not necessary to train in the sport, and in competition in some codes you have to run them without any collar at all for safety.

One of the messages that came out loud and clear in her seminar is not to give up on your dog. Her descriptions of both Buzz and Decaf were enlightening - while I had known a bit about Buzz I didn''t realise the work that went into Decaf.

She does choose to train without corrections, and the work she puts into her dogs to get this to be successful is to be commended, but if she was vehemently against any trainer that did use them, she would have an issue with Schutzhund people and she said she gets lots of them coming to her seminars in Canada.

[Staranais]

Bronte was a Belgian Malinois X Dutch Shepherd trainee service dog that was seen wearing a prong collar. A Susan Garrett type trainer lodged a complaint that the dog we were training was suffering from cruel training practices and that we were training the dog wrong. The trainer was invited down to give a semimar how to train and handle dogs with humane methods without conflict and cut a long story short, Bronte was used for the demonstration. I was asked to remove the disgusting prong collar and fit Bronte with a flat leather collar and hand the trainer the leash. The trainer did a couple of circuits with Bronte, a sit and drop and commented how this dog didn't need a prong collar and how cruel and inhumane we had been. Bronte looked up at the trainer, his tail stood vertical as he ommitted low curdling growl. The trainer asked what is he growling at when I told her in about 30secs he's going to come up the leash at her. She promptly handed me the leash and walking from the room telling us that Bronte should be PTS.

Did this person tell you they were a Susan Garrett type trainer? If not, how do you know they were? Perhaps they had never seen, or read, her methods? In which case using them as an example to show that Susan Garrett's stuff doesn't work is illogical.

I don't believe in banning ecollar or prong collars, although I would like to see their use (along with the use of check chains & head collars) regulated. But slamming all motivational trainers because some of them are crap is just silly. I've met some terrible trainers that use physical corrections too, doesn't mean they're all crappy. Some dogs suit purely motivational training techniques very well.

[Donegal]

I have mentioned this before with my dog that after three motivational trainers who won't do corrections and say how cruel it is couldn't fix my dogs behavior, they were useless and cost me a lot of money and time trying. The last trainer could see straight up my dog needed some corrections and completely sorted out his dog agro in two sessions.

How many motivational trainers are you supposed to hire before one can show that their methods work on all dogs. From my experience, I would never hire a trainer again that bagged out prong collars and chokers as the three I had, didn't know what they were talking about and couldn't fix my dog at all.

I understand how motivational training has its place and on some dogs and is really good, but on dogs like mine for his problems it didn't work, but they refused to try anything else because corrections etc didn't fit with their image, but too bad about my dog

[Aidan3]

Donegal, what has this got to do with Vickie's question? Susan Garrett is not a behaviourist, nor does she claim to be one, nor are we talking about a dog with a behaviour problem.

And why are we not surprised to see you turn up to beat a dead hobby horse for 55chevy? Do you know what an IP is?

[huski]

Donegal, what has this got to do with Vickie's question? Susan Garrett is not a behaviourist, nor does she claim to be one, nor are we talking about a dog with a behaviour problem.

Exactly! I don't see why the thread has gone in this direction.

Perhaps 55chevy Donegal can share with us their experience in training competition level agility and why and how they used a prong collar or heavy corrections to do so.

[Donegal]

Donegal, what has this got to do with Vickie's question? Susan Garrett is not a behaviourist, nor does she claim to be one, nor are we talking about a dog with a behaviour problem.

And why are we not surprised to see you turn up to beat a dead hobby horse for 55chevy? Do you know what an IP is?

Technically I am off topic, sorry you are right, but your response to me doesn't answer vickie's question either, so what's the purpose of your post Adian2 other than to try and make me look dumb?? I was dumb listening to motivational trainers and what 55chevy is getting at, if the likes of Susan Garrett had her way, no correction type training would exist, so what happens then to my dog with dog agro, he gets put to sleep then.

[Cosmolo]

Come in here to read about crate games (which is a program i don't know alot about) and get this.. How does crate games discussion turn into this!!

Seriously- start another thread if you want to debate other topics!!!! :D

[Aidan3]

so what's the purpose of your post Adian2 other than to try and make me look dumb??

I had nothing to do with that, I was just pointing out some details. An IP tells people where an internet user is accessing the internet.

[Tiggy]

This thread is getting ridiculous the OP was asking about crate games that's it!

[PAX]

I would absolutely guarantee that a balanced trainer like for example Steve Courtney (K9pro) would have more success in crate games over a wider range of dogs than Susan Garrett.

If you read Steve's post on how to raise a pup, it is not unlike what Susan G says, any good trainer knows this stuff.

Good dog trainers are open minded, they put in the hard yards with pups, building motivation and drive, it's not that hard, no matter what breed.

It's sad you wont ever get to chat to SG personally, you would be very suprised and inspired.

[Donegal]

I would absolutely guarantee that a balanced trainer like for example Steve Courtney (K9pro) would have more success in crate games over a wider range of dogs than Susan Garrett.

If you read Steve's post on how to raise a pup, it is not unlike what Susan G says, any good trainer knows this stuff.

Good dog trainers are open minded, they put in the hard yards with pups, building motivation and drive, it's not that hard, no matter what breed.

It's sad you wont ever get to chat to SG personally, you would be very suprised and inspired.

But how is Susan garrett a good open minded trainer when she is involved in action groups condemning prong collars and correction type training. Steve is an open minded trainer, he even sells prong collars, there is a big difference. Susan Garrett peddles her own methods and is anti everything apart from her own techniques, I just googled her and read about her and she is very closed minded in training methods big time!!!!. She even blogs about humane stuff and how she doesn't do correction training and critisizes trainers who do. What Chevy said she was about is true, so what's the big deal??

[huski]

Perhaps 55chevy Donegal can share with us their experience in training competition level agility and why and how they used a prong collar or heavy corrections to do so.