Crate Games

[Vickie]

My daughter started crate games with peppi & it has been really good for both of them.

I have a question. I have looked & asked SG followers but have been able to find anyone with an answer to it yet.

How do you integrate crate games with a dog who needs to be managed in a crate when:

you go out for long periods of time?

you are training other dogs?

thanks & hope my question makes sense

[kelpiechick]

Short answer - I used a different crate in a different location when I first started training CG so there was no 'muddying the water'. First few sessions I didn't and inadvertently developed a couple of issues that are a whole other topic that I won't get into here.

Now I use the same crate all the time and have no problems with it but for me I found it was helpful making a distinction at first. I also kept changing the location of my crate games to further proof the behaviours I wanted with it, including a number of seesions outside.

[J...]

Unlike KC I did use the same crate and didn't have any fallout but I would think about using a different crate to start with for my next pup. Maybe.

For me, crate games is not something I do occasionally with a crate - it becomes an everyday part of real life and the same rules exist for the back of my car, the doors of the house, released from a lead/tie up or even while I train one dog and leave the other on a mat/camp chair. So it gets related across all kinds of different things for different reasons and they work it out.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Jess.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

SG has home crates built into her kitchen that the dogs use for kennels and she uses to keep puppies and new (rescue) dogs out of trouble when she's unable to pay them attention (computer blamed most often). Once the dog has the hang of the routine, she leaves their doors open.

She says, the dog only has to stay in the crate until you release it - if you sent it there. The dog is smart enough to know the difference between when you tell it to do something (you must release) and when it does it of its own accord (it can release itself).

I am experimenting with "game over" for I'm done training for now, no more treats, amuse yourself release. Vs "Go" (or "Break") for let's work doing fun stuff ie get your re-inforcement now.

I think SG makes no distinction and the dogs make their own decision based on context ie "break" at the back door means something different to "break" at the start line or it means the same, but the most rewarding thing to do is different in each situation.

Also for stage three - she stays very close to the crate, ie arms length.

For stage four she moves to a soft sided crate(s) and more space. Ie the metal mesh crates are not so good for high speed driving in and out. Mostly she used that in the clip so we could all see what she was doing. At least that's what I think she said about it.

PS it's fairly clear on the dvd that she has different crates for different dogs and the release is either "dogs name + ok" or a different word for each dog. So a dog may only come out when she says its name and the release word.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[kelpiechick]

For me, crate games is not something I do occasionally with a crate - it becomes an everyday part of real life and the same rules exist for the back of my car, the doors of the house, released from a lead/tie up or even while I train one dog and leave the other on a mat/camp chair. So it gets related across all kinds of different things for different reasons and they work it out.

Exactly...... we also had a baby gate across the laundry and I taught all the intial work there as well. It kinda ends up becoming a mentality rather than just a fun thing to do and as Jess said, can transfer to a dog bed, mat, etc.

Once you have built a ton of value for the crate it won't make any difference what you use. With my 'baby' I taught all my stays from the crate, plus combined it with teaching to drive in from a ton of different angles, which I am now transferring to obstacle entries. Also used it for a stack of proofing stuff with my release and as I am currently 'one armed' after an accident and unable to do my usual training, I have been using the crates inside to teach a verbal left and right and working lead out and release with a high value tennis ball behind me to reinforce it's your choice type stuff and not blind crossing me.

101 things to do with a crate anyone

[Vickie]

Thanks guys.

It was interesting today as we created a situation where we realized that we hadn't built enough value for the crate under distraction. Pep was putting herself in after exercises & staying till released.

Everything was great until another dog was brought out & trained. She was happy to stay in there & then come out & have her turn. After her turn, she was not at all keen to go back in & was choosing the value & reward of the exercise over the value of the crate.

More work to do!

[55chevy]

My daughter started crate games with peppi & it has been really good for both of them.

I have a question. I have looked & asked SG followers but have been able to find anyone with an answer to it yet.

How do you integrate crate games with a dog who needs to be managed in a crate when:

you go out for long periods of time?

you are training other dogs?

thanks & hope my question makes sense

I am not quite sure what you are needing to achieve My youngest GSD was crate trained as a pup and has always slept in his crate with the door shut. To get him in the crate, the command is "time for bed" where he dives into the crate and gets a biscuit, eats it and lays down for a snooze.

Is the dog playing up in the crate and won't settle perhaps???

[Vickie]

For me, crate games is not something I do occasionally with a crate - it becomes an everyday part of real life and the same rules exist for the back of my car, the doors of the house, released from a lead/tie up or even while I train one dog and leave the other on a mat/camp chair. So it gets related across all kinds of different things for different reasons and they work it out.

are you just talking about the stability & release aspect of crate games here Jess or the drive aspect too?

Obviously you can build value in driving to all these areas.

Peppi seems pretty good on the stability/release stuff.

We just now need to convince her that driving into a crate is worthwhile when we are then going to leave her in there for 2-3 hours while we go shopping. She's a smart cookie & seems to know the difference. It's not that she's not settled in there, she is, but she seems to have worked out the difference between flying in to wait for her next training session & going in so we can keep her secure while we leave.

I may be misunderstanding things...

Should we be expecting her to drive in each & every time we tell her to go kennel, regardless of what is happening next?

[Vickie]

I am not quite sure what you are needing to achieve

it's a specific program 55chevy, devised by Susan Garrett. There is a heap more to it than just not being happy laying in a crate. Way to much to explain here & do it justice

[J...]

For me, crate games is not something I do occasionally with a crate - it becomes an everyday part of real life and the same rules exist for the back of my car, the doors of the house, released from a lead/tie up or even while I train one dog and leave the other on a mat/camp chair. So it gets related across all kinds of different things for different reasons and they work it out.

are you just talking about the stability & release aspect of crate games here Jess or the drive aspect too?

Obviously you can build value in driving to all these areas.

Both - I use the back of the car mostly when I'm out and about training - given I very rarely train in my backyard then I use whatever I have on hand. If I have nothing then I put one in a drop and work the other and then swap. They both drive out of that position too when released. It's bad enough lugging my agility gear, I don't want to be lugging crates as well.

Peppi seems pretty good on the stability/release stuff.

We just now need to convince her that driving into a crate is worthwhile when we are then going to leave her in there for 2-3 hours while we go shopping. She's a smart cookie & seems to know the difference. It's not that she's not settled in there, she is, but she seems to have worked out the difference between flying in to wait for her next training session & going in so we can keep her secure while we leave.

I may be misunderstanding things...

Should we be expecting her to drive in each & every time we tell her to go kennel, regardless of what is happening next?

If the value is there, yes. It takes time because it's not just about building value it's getting them used to switching off and relaxing in a crate, but also being ready to go when asked. Zee is my first full blown "crate games" dog and it took time, especially under distraction at club training or trialling etc. So we had some reluctance to go in the crate and the occasional verbal tantrum when left in one but she's now at the stage where I can leave both dogs for hours with the crate open regardless of what's going on.

Maybe use a really high value reward that takes a bit of time to eat if you're leaving Peppi for long periods of time - i.e. a pig's ear or a stuffed kong or a bone? It reinforces the value of the crate but also helps that switch off and relax process.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Jess.

[supercharged]

Okay so now you have me wondering - what are these crate games?? can anyone send me a link or direct me to a book or DVD? Sounds interesting and very useful.....

[Staff'n'Toller]

DVD link

[Tiggy]

I've got the crate games dvd but haven't watched it yet I must put it on my 2011 wishlist so I do it .

[55chevy]

I am not quite sure what you are needing to achieve

it's a specific program 55chevy, devised by Susan Garrett. There is a heap more to it than just not being happy laying in a crate. Way to much to explain here & do it justice

Fair enough, still don't understand it's purpose other than conditioning a dog's behaviour in the crate???

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Should we be expecting her to drive in each & every time we tell her to go kennel, regardless of what is happening next?

If you give the command to get in her crate - then yes she should drive in with enthusiasm. If nothing further happens, the dog is free to chill out whatever way it wants (as long as it doesn't break the plane of the door), especially if the crate door gets shut. Ideally not barking its head off.

We had one dog at SG's workshop that kept running in her(his?) crate instead of staying out to do the work, the crate was part of it but a task needed to be done first but that dog was gone already. I don't blame it - there were lots of very excited dogs around and it was a little bit anxious.

55chevy:

Susan Garrett's crate games is

1. getting dog happy in the crate

2. getting the dog to act with self control (stay and recall)

3. getting the dog to work into and out of the crate with enthusiasm and speed that can be "transferred" to other tasks like agility work. Agility sport is a race - so getting a dog to work as fast as it can, is often part of the goal. And Crate training the SG way can help with that.

If you're not into dog sports, you might not need crate games, but if you do want a nice enthusiastic recall and a really solid stay without fussing then maybe you could use it.

You do have to watch it over and over to get the sublties of the training, and even then - there are still questions or ways to misunderstand it which get sorted at Say Yes training seminars.

[supercharged]

ta for the link! It looks interesting, I already crate train all my dogs but this puts a spin on it. I am going to give it a whirl!

[55chevy]

Should we be expecting her to drive in each & every time we tell her to go kennel, regardless of what is happening next?

If you give the command to get in her crate - then yes she should drive in with enthusiasm. If nothing further happens, the dog is free to chill out whatever way it wants (as long as it doesn't break the plane of the door), especially if the crate door gets shut. Ideally not barking its head off.

We had one dog at SG's workshop that kept running in her(his?) crate instead of staying out to do the work, the crate was part of it but a task needed to be done first but that dog was gone already. I don't blame it - there were lots of very excited dogs around and it was a little bit anxious.

55chevy:

Susan Garrett's crate games is

1. getting dog happy in the crate

2. getting the dog to act with self control (stay and recall)

3. getting the dog to work into and out of the crate with enthusiasm and speed that can be "transferred" to other tasks like agility work. Agility sport is a race - so getting a dog to work as fast as it can, is often part of the goal. And Crate training the SG way can help with that.

If you're not into dog sports, you might not need crate games, but if you do want a nice enthusiastic recall and a really solid stay without fussing then maybe you could use it.

You do have to watch it over and over to get the sublties of the training, and even then - there are still questions or ways to misunderstand it which get sorted at Say Yes training seminars.

Thanks for the explanation Mrs Rusty Bucket appreciated

I will stay out of this one, I just realised who Susan Garrett is, she is a methodoligist and tree hugger, pro halti anti choker, prong, Ecollar activist, an unbalanced trainer in my view, not interested

[Staff'n'Toller]

Thanks for the explanation Mrs Rusty Bucket appreciated

I will stay out of this one, I just realised who Susan Garrett is, she is a methodoligist and tree hugger, pro halti anti choker, prong, Ecollar activist, an unbalanced trainer in my view, not interested

I guess that makes you 'unbalanced' as well.

[55chevy]

Thanks for the explanation Mrs Rusty Bucket appreciated

I will stay out of this one, I just realised who Susan Garrett is, she is a methodoligist and tree hugger, pro halti anti choker, prong, Ecollar activist, an unbalanced trainer in my view, not interested

I guess that makes you 'unbalanced' as well.

Susan Garrett's work is method based and she's a major supporter of anti-cruelty movements in dog training which is a fine approach for some dogs, but not all. However, trainers of the Susan Garrett mentality cause massive issues for the owners of dogs that don't respond well to her methods which leads to unnecessary euthanasia of dogs that would otherwise be perfectly rehabilitated with a trainer balanced in methods with a wider vision.

Bronte was a Belgian Malinois X Dutch Shepherd trainee service dog that was seen wearing a prong collar. A Susan Garrett type trainer lodged a complaint that the dog we were training was suffering from cruel training practices and that we were training the dog wrong. The trainer was invited down to give a semimar how to train and handle dogs with humane methods without conflict and cut a long story short, Bronte was used for the demonstration. I was asked to remove the disgusting prong collar and fit Bronte with a flat leather collar and hand the trainer the leash. The trainer did a couple of circuits with Bronte, a sit and drop and commented how this dog didn't need a prong collar and how cruel and inhumane we had been. Bronte looked up at the trainer, his tail stood vertical as he ommitted low curdling growl. The trainer asked what is he growling at when I told her in about 30secs he's going to come up the leash at her. She promptly handed me the leash and walking from the room telling us that Bronte should be PTS.

Bronte was a dominant highly driven working dog with genetic social aggression that needed to understand that the handler was tougher than he was, and once this boundary was established, Bronte was putty in your hands. Bronte went on to do public displays in protection work where after his routines, he would sit for the kids and their parents watching to come over and pat him and give him a treat. We could have taken the advice of the tree hugger who recommened he be PTS

The point of sharing this story, Bronte was too much dog for Susan Garrett training methods to apply. Any trainer so hung up on methodology to prefer a dog be PTS to save it from suffering the aversion from a prong collar to shape the dog into a decent canine being IMHO is not a trainer's bootlace ;)

[pie]

I actually find your 'tree hugger' label quite offensive, and I'm pretty open minded when it comes to training methods! By all means state your opinion regarding different methods, but name calling isn't really necessary.

There are good trainers and there are bad trainers, whatever the method, different methods work on different dogs, Susan Garrett is a highly respected trainer who specialises in agility, not protection work. Agility is mostly trained with positive methods and that's fine because it is supposed to be fun for the dog and handler. Not quite sure what your anti 'tree hugger' post has to do with crate games anyway, which is supposed to be a fun positive way to build value for a crate and use it as a tool in agility training?