Rehoming High Drive Stafford

[ruthless]

He is desexed. She mentioned it elsewhere.

[persephone]

He is desexed. She mentioned it elsewhere.

missed it.

[megan_]

If this dog has such high training, exercise and management needs that he has exhausted a knoweldgeable, experienced, committed dog owner, is placing him with a family that "might" take up obedience or agility such a good idea? Why is he going to do better there? What will they do differently?

It seems to me that way you have described his behaviour would not suit the average family. He has problems, and while you're solving your problem you are passing his along. Maybe this family is extrordinary, but my guess is that this re-homing is not a permant fix for the dog.

I hope you don't feel like you're being given a hard time Q's owner, but I agree with this post. So many (non dog crazy) people don't realise how strong a prey drive is. I commend you for looking out for your cats, but I just hope that some poor small dog doesn't pay the price.

Are they never going to let this dog go off lead? Are they never going to let it play with small dogs?

As the owner of a dog that can be a bit of a grump if she is jumped on, it is VERY hard to manage even 1/2 an hour of walking with her without getting up at 5am for walks. There are lots of idiots out there with badly trained dogs who run up to your dog, don't have a recall etc. I have to manage her very carefully and I have to drive 3+ hours of weekends to get her to "safe" places so she can get some offlead exercise safely.

Can a family really commit to the time and - let's face it - hassle of dealing with a dog with a problem that will never be fixed?

If it is hard for me it must be 100x harder for someone with a high prey drive stafford.

I will never forget when my boy was a puppy I took him to the emergency vets for something. There was a woman in the waiting room on the phone to her husband. She was an absolute mess. A rottie had attacked her cav at an off leash park and she had rushed the torn up little thing to the vets in a vain attempt to save its life. The owner of the rottie apologised and said that she had only adopted the dog last week - and she KNEW he didn't like small dogs. Yet she had still taken him to an off leash area. I'm sure the people who sold her the dog (the RSPCA!) thought that she would never do something so stupid.

[Quickasyoucan]

I personally think sometimes people get obedience and behaviour mixed up. Not saying this is the case here, but I have met a fair few obedience dogs that have tried to take chunks out of my own dog. Obedience and agility champion does not necessarily a good canine citizen make.

This does definitely sounds like it needs to be assessed by a behaviourist, not a trainer, a behaviourist PRIOR to it being placed in any new home.

I have a friend with a very high prey drive stafford mix and she has worked very, very hard with a behaviourist to improve on leash behaviour. She has only just moved from getting up around 4.30 am to walk the dog to avoid meeting other people and animals. However, this dog will NEVER be allowed in an off leash situation with other dogs and his owner has adult children and is committed to ensuring that this dog does not put other people's pets in harms way. She still worries though.

Could you honestly in good conscience rehome a dog to a family with this level of prey drive without a professional opinion? Are you prepared to deal with the consequences if the dog attacks and kills someone else's pet, both for the family you have rehomed him to, the dog and yourself?

Many councils take a very dim few of out of control prey drive, also you don't want to be setting this family up for legal action against them by someone who has lost their beloved pet, not to mention giving fuel to the anti-bull breed brigade's fire.

[Vickie]

Have you thought about contacting the army & seeing if they would be interested in him?

We had them come in & assess a few dogs when I was at the pound. Your boy sounds exactly what they are after. It could be a very good match & a great life for your boy who lives to work.

[poodlefan]

Have you thought about contacting the army & seeing if they would be interested in him?

We had them come in & assess a few dogs when I was at the pound. Your boy sounds exactly what they are after. It could be a very good match & a great life for your boy who lives to work.

Could be a very good resolution to the issue.

[persephone]

Have you thought about contacting the army & seeing if they would be interested in him?

We had them come in & assess a few dogs when I was at the pound. Your boy sounds exactly what they are after. It could be a very good match & a great life for your boy who lives to work.

Could be a very good resolution to the issue.

It does sound promising - lots of work and guidance .

[Mavriksbt]

I first put this on the forum as I was told others might be able to find a home for my boy. If I had of known the level of fanatascism I would be subjected to then I would certainly not have done this. I understand that people can only respond to what they read or percieve but assuming anything makes you all look like fools.

Not once have I said that Q is dog aggressive...not once! He attends obedience Monday nights and Agility Wednesday nights. He has been to agility demonstrations AND to agility competitions. He has yet to show aggression to anything or anyone. My twelve year old daughter has done agility work with him. My six year old son can boss him around and Q just grins like a goofy boy and does what he is told. There are a few members on here who have had Q run with their dogs, from shelties to Border collies, he has maintained his manners at all times.

As for his "desperate" need for a behaviourist. Can I say overkill? Now, if I were talking about a Border Collie kept in a small yard that had a tendency to round up the kids and nip them on the ankles would you all be screaming for an assessment? Or a Newfie who refuses to let his owners kids near the pool and will climb on them to save them when they are swimming, would that be cause for a behaviourist??? Please, tell me where it is different that I have a terrier who is inherently bred to chase, catch and kill. This is what a Stafford is bred to do. I know this, I own this, I understand this. IF I didn't have cats, I would not be rehoming him.

Now, down to the nitty gritty. I believe someone accused me of "glossing over" the facts of Q's behaviour. So, would you all have liked me to tell you all in graphic detail what he did to his "prey"? Would you all have liked me to tell you in even more graphic detail how I collapsed into my husbands arms and COULD NOT SPEAK TO TELL HIM MY DOG HAD KILLED HIS CAT? Would you have liked me to tell you that I have been so torn up about what to do that I thought driving my car into a tree was a good option at the time? That I haven't been able to eat or sleep because I feel I failed my dog? I FAILED? Did it occur to anyone to ask any questions rather than assume?

I am a stafford breeder of fifteen years who has never had a dog with a prey drive this high. This is the first dog I have brought in to my kennel that I did not breed. I have been in obedience for as long as I remember and been an instructor for 6 years. I am actively searching for a home that has no cats. Many, many dogs can't live happily with cats. Q is one of them. He does not have DA.

To say that I am bewildered by everyone's insistence that there is something wrong with him is an understatement.

I knew there was a reason why I stayed away from the DOL forum. Too many of you like to assume that the person at the other end of the keyboard is a dimwitted idiot with no clue and no self respect and frankly, that is a shameful way to be.

I posted my decision on my Egroup, with whom I have been a member for over ten years. I have recieved nothing but support from all over the world. And yet, I come here and get accused of with-holding information and trying to irresponsibly rehome a child-maiming, dog-killing beast. And for the record, whichever of you twits said that he was not good with kids should ask, get your facts straight and hang your head.

So, in a complete nutshell, you have all pissed me off completely. You have made a difficult decision even harder by your thoughtless accusations and comments. And I am done with it.

[55chevy]

Hi To Everyone,

Thanks so much for your insight and help and also the character references.

Ok, his current tally is- three chickens, he and my other two staffords got into a fight (caused my the neighbours idiot dog) that ended in my oldest stafford suffering a heart attack and two of my breeding cats. Is that clear enough?

No, sorry, that was snarky and I apologise, I have been in bed for most of the day with a migraine caused by stress.

I have met a great family this afternoon with who we sat and discussed Q for a few hours, they met him, watched him work, we talked about his bad points and his good points, we talked about the fact that the big boof is mortally afraid of windscreen wipers (gr), I have organised a home visit for Q and us on the weekend and IF that works out, he will have a weekend sleepover prior to actually going to live with them. They are also interested in continuing obedience with him and maybe agility.

Once again, thanks guys, you have made an difficult situation tolerable. And yes, I expect sympathy hugs on Wednesday at training (grin)

Cin

It's a sad and stressful situation that I understand well. but out of interest, has the dog been assessed by K9 type trainer who specialises in drive behaviour???.

[55chevy]

I first put this on the forum as I was told others might be able to find a home for my boy. If I had of known the level of fanatascism I would be subjected to then I would certainly not have done this. I understand that people can only respond to what they read or percieve but assuming anything makes you all look like fools.

Not once have I said that Q is dog aggressive...not once! He attends obedience Monday nights and Agility Wednesday nights. He has been to agility demonstrations AND to agility competitions. He has yet to show aggression to anything or anyone. My twelve year old daughter has done agility work with him. My six year old son can boss him around and Q just grins like a goofy boy and does what he is told. There are a few members on here who have had Q run with their dogs, from shelties to Border collies, he has maintained his manners at all times.

As for his "desperate" need for a behaviourist. Can I say overkill? Now, if I were talking about a Border Collie kept in a small yard that had a tendency to round up the kids and nip them on the ankles would you all be screaming for an assessment? Or a Newfie who refuses to let his owners kids near the pool and will climb on them to save them when they are swimming, would that be cause for a behaviourist??? Please, tell me where it is different that I have a terrier who is inherently bred to chase, catch and kill. This is what a Stafford is bred to do. I know this, I own this, I understand this. IF I didn't have cats, I would not be rehoming him.

Now, down to the nitty gritty. I believe someone accused me of "glossing over" the facts of Q's behaviour. So, would you all have liked me to tell you all in graphic detail what he did to his "prey"? Would you all have liked me to tell you in even more graphic detail how I collapsed into my husbands arms and COULD NOT SPEAK TO TELL HIM MY DOG HAD KILLED HIS CAT? Would you have liked me to tell you that I have been so torn up about what to do that I thought driving my car into a tree was a good option at the time? That I haven't been able to eat or sleep because I feel I failed my dog? I FAILED? Did it occur to anyone to ask any questions rather than assume?

I am a stafford breeder of fifteen years who has never had a dog with a prey drive this high. This is the first dog I have brought in to my kennel that I did not breed. I have been in obedience for as long as I remember and been an instructor for 6 years. I am actively searching for a home that has no cats. Many, many dogs can't live happily with cats. Q is one of them. He does not have DA.

To say that I am bewildered by everyone's insistence that there is something wrong with him is an understatement.

I knew there was a reason why I stayed away from the DOL forum. Too many of you like to assume that the person at the other end of the keyboard is a dimwitted idiot with no clue and no self respect and frankly, that is a shameful way to be.

I posted my decision on my Egroup, with whom I have been a member for over ten years. I have recieved nothing but support from all over the world. And yet, I come here and get accused of with-holding information and trying to irresponsibly rehome a child-maiming, dog-killing beast. And for the record, whichever of you twits said that he was not good with kids should ask, get your facts straight and hang your head.

So, in a complete nutshell, you have all pissed me off completely. You have made a difficult decision even harder by your thoughtless accusations and comments. And I am done with it.

I am interested in what you have actually done to try and reshape the behaviour???. Has the dog had any retraining on an Ecollar anything like that???

Edited November 24, 2010 by 55chevy

[poodlefan]

I first put this on the forum as I was told others might be able to find a home for my boy. If I had of known the level of fanatascism I would be subjected to then I would certainly not have done this. I understand that people can only respond to what they read or percieve but assuming anything makes you all look like fools.

Fanaticism my arse. You propose to rehome a dog with a history of killing small animals and that you freely admit you you cannot handle. Given your level of breed and training experience, you can hardly call cautionary calls for a behavioural assessment and careful rehoming to a competent home "fanatical".

No one's assuming anything. The posts are based on what you're posting.

Not once have I said that Q is dog aggressive...not once! He attends obedience Monday nights and Agility Wednesday nights. He has been to agility demonstrations AND to agility competitions. He has yet to show aggression to anything or anyone. My twelve year old daughter has done agility work with him. My six year old son can boss him around and Q just grins like a goofy boy and does what he is told. There are a few members on here who have had Q run with their dogs, from shelties to Border collies, he has maintained his manners at all times.

Really? Yet you said in an earlier post:

he and my other two staffords got into a fight (caused my the neighbours idiot dog) that ended in my oldest stafford suffering a heart attack

How does a dog fight without displaying aggression? How does the fact that you have concluded that another dog "started" lead you to conclude your dog can't behave aggressively I don't think anyone is assuming your dog has issues with people. Most posters know that animal and human aggression are different issues that aren't commonly linked.

As for his "desperate" need for a behaviourist. Can I say overkill? Now, if I were talking about a Border Collie kept in a small yard that had a tendency to round up the kids and nip them on the ankles would you all be screaming for an assessment? Or a Newfie who refuses to let his owners kids near the pool and will climb on them to save them when they are swimming, would that be cause for a behaviourist??? Please, tell me where it is different that I have a terrier who is inherently bred to chase, catch and kill. This is what a Stafford is bred to do. I know this, I own this, I understand this. IF I didn't have cats, I would not be rehoming him.

You can say "overkill" if you like. I'd prefer to think of it as equipping yourself and any adoptive family with more knowledge of what's going to be involved in a successful rehoming. You, an experiened breed owner AND trainer, despite careful socialisation (I'm sure you did this) cannot control this dog's prey drive. What makes you think anyone without such experience and wthout professional help will do better? Since when was an SBT a coursing breed by the way?

You need to have a very clear understanding of what you're rehoming and so does the adoptive home. You have to plan for a home that won't be as careful as you and that may not understand what they're dealing with. My guess is that you do so many things instinctively to manage and control this dog that you don't even realise how much you're working on that. Having a professional assessment can help others to grasp this. If this boy is a highly reactive prey driven dog, do you see him down the dog park every afternoon? Chances are an adoptive family might try it out to "see how he goes". Your assertion that he's never been aggressive will ENCOURAGE it.

To say that I am bewildered by everyone's insistence that there is something wrong with him is an understatement.I knew there was a reason why I stayed away from the DOL forum. Too many of you like to assume that the person at the other end of the keyboard is a dimwitted idiot with no clue and no self respect and frankly, that is a shameful way to be.

I think you need to calm down, and carefully read what's actually been said. No one's made any negative comments about you. Indeed, people are concerned that the next home for your dog won't be as capable as you. There's nothing "wrong" with a dog with extreme prey drive IN THE RIGHT HANDS. If you're going to rehome this dog to a family that's never seen what he's capable of, that doesn't have the knowledge to control his behaviour and that doesn't have access to professional help then those are not the right hands. Do the right thing by this dog and any potential adoptive home and have him assessed. To do otherwise is to be standing into danger IMO.

I posted my decision on my Egroup, with whom I have been a member for over ten years. I have recieved nothing but support from all over the world. And yet, I come here and get accused of with-holding information and trying to irresponsibly rehome a child-maiming, dog-killing beast. And for the record, whichever of you twits said that he was not good with kids should ask, get your facts straight and hang your head.

So, in a complete nutshell, you have all pissed me off completely. You have made a difficult decision even harder by your thoughtless accusations and comments. And I am done with it.

I'll ignore the insults you, while calling others who insult "shameful", have freely heaped on people who have demonstrated genuine concern for your dog. Some of those people work with dogs like yours professioally. However I can only conclude that if its made you think harder about what you are doing then that's a good result. If you wanted advice from a bunch of folk who probably wouldn't say what they were really thinking for fear of offending you and would make only noises of support, and who have never met the dog then you should have stuck to a group in which you have been a long term member. No one here knows you - perhaps you might care to contemplate which advice was more frank. ;)

Best of luck with the rehoming. If you think any cautionary advice you give at the time of rehoming will be followed for the next 12+ years of this dogs life without reinforcement and professional help I'll say this - YOU ARE DREAMING. Ask any rescuer. As a dog trainer you know how complacement people can get around their own dog.

You know how bloody awful it feels to be dealing with this dog now. For pity's sake do the responsible thing and do everything in your power to see that his next home doesn't end up in the same traumatic situation over someone elses pets.

No way in Gods green earth would I recommend this dog to anyone without an objective professional assessment of his behaviour. The fact that your long time cronies on another egroup are blowing air up your skirt about it doesn't change that fact for a minute. As Vikki recommended, talk to the Army - sounds like an ideal solution that will see your dog working for a living with professionals.

Edited November 24, 2010 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

your dog did not chase butterflies, it has killed several animals. If someone had reported your dog he could have a dangerous dog label slapped on him. Yes you have a stafford but they do not have to chase, catch and kill all smallies near them, socialisation only works if you deal with it in the manner right for the dog. The first time this happened you should have called in a behaviourist but you seem to know better.

No one said your dogs temperament towards children is bad, but you yourself admit he's too much for young kids. To me this is another problem that needs addressing. I said you glossed over the facts, and frankly you did. I also think your assessment of the dog is slightly biased as well, be it intentionally or unintentionally, hence saying an opinion from a 3rd party is an intelligent way to go.

I totally agree with PF's post. This is not anything against you, are you traumatised? Yes. But that is no excuse for not calling in someone who deals with dogs like this before rehoming them, and seeing if they are at all rehomable. As has been said before, this comes down to behaviour NOT obedience training. You are not changing the behaviour you are passing the problem onto someone else and probably downplayed.

Just because we dont agree with you doesnt mean we're against you. Maybe you should listen to some people advice who DO have experience with handling dogs like this and worst. I have a small feeling there is more to this story then we're hearing as well.

Q is my first adult male and I know when to call "uncle".

I just want to know in 20 years how you have never owned an adult male of the breed you have been breeding?

Edited November 24, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Aussienot]

So sorry that your attempt at free advertising did not get the result you desired. Good luck with getting rid of him, and remain happy with your denial that your cat-killing dog has any problems that need sorting out befor passing him along. Maybe next time pay for advertising and don't post it on a public discussion forum if you don't want it discussed.

[persephone]

Mavriksbt...

I am so sorry you have been put thru the wringer by the tragic events at your place. Animals can really bring us back to basics!

Poodlefan and nekhbet said it well.... you have a dog who is too much for smaller kids, has killed chooks and a cat and ,indirectly thru aggressive fighting, another dog .

His new home needs to be absolutely managed,and strong,and capable of handling this drive.

The GUIDANCE of a professional ,both in assessing and training would be invaluable ,the better to ensure a good and SAFE placement.

[Robbi]

From a more novice view point than the very experienced trainers/behaviorists that have posted before me I think there are dogs that in all good conscience should never be re-homed.

In February I decided to adopt a very beautiful Bull Arab x from Canterbury pound, I have never had experience with a bull breed before and it has literally changed my life. Abbie is not high prey drive but does show a keen interest in my sheep, I have spent a lot of money changing my fencing so that she can never get into my sheep paddocks, she is leash reactive and overly boistrous around small dogs, she eats my house if I dont crate her when I am out and it has taken months to get her to not try and kiss the cat every time he walks past BUT I made the choice( there were no second thoughts) to work through her issues and find solutions that keep her and the other animals safe. When we take on a dog it is up to us to do the best we can for them and not pass on our problems to somebody else if it all goes pear shape.

[huski]

Cin, you know I think Q is a great dog who has stacks of potential in the right home. I know this is a really crappy situation and you are really over it, but like I said to you the other night its hard to make these sorts of decisions when you are really emotional about it because you can't think about it rationally. No one here is saying you are a bad trainer, or irresponsible, or are trying to make you feel guilty. A dog with a high prey drive like Q's needs to be in a home where he can get drive satisfaction so his drive is managed appropriately. That's not something a novice owner who 'may' think about doing obedience will know how to do without professional help. That's not any reflection on you as you know I think Q is awesome. But if he isn't getting an appropriate and safe outlet for his drive, he will look for other ways to satisfy it. Think of all the mental exercise he gets in your home, as an experienced trainer, and all the things that you would know to do with him without really thinking about it. The average owner is not that experienced. Writing them instructions on how to train him and telling them what he can and can't do is really important and I know you will be very thorough with it, but that's not the same as teaching them how to manage his prey drive and give him drive satisfaction which an experienced behaviourist will be able to assist them with.

[persephone]

Think of all the mental exercise he gets in your home, as an experienced trainer, and all the things that you would know to do with him without really thinking about it. The average owner is not that experienced. Writing them instructions on how to train him and telling them what he can and can't do is really important and I know you will be very thorough with it, but that's not the same as teaching them how to manage his prey drive and give him drive satisfaction which an experienced behaviourist will be able to assist them with.

(my bolded bit..and I feel it's important .We ,as owners often interact with our dogs almost on a reflex level.We are SO familiar with their body language..that things just 'happen'..with hardly a thought on our part .A dog in a new environment,with unfamiliar people will not usually behave in the same manner, and new owners will not be aware of all the little postures and twitches )

Edited November 24, 2010 by persephone

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Think of all the mental exercise he gets in your home, as an experienced trainer, and all the things that you would know to do with him without really thinking about it. The average owner is not that experienced. Writing them instructions on how to train him and telling them what he can and can't do is really important and I know you will be very thorough with it, but that's not the same as teaching them how to manage his prey drive and give him drive satisfaction which an experienced behaviourist will be able to assist them with.

:thumbsup

(my bolded bit..and I feel it's important .We ,as owners often interact with our dogs almost on a reflex level.We are SO familiar with their body language..that things just 'happen'..with hardly a thought on our part .A dog in a new environment,with unfamiliar people will not usually behave in the same manner, and new owners will not be aware of all the little postures and twitches )

and the dog with ours. my dog know when i am going to be doing some things. like i can getup a hundred times to make a cup of tea and go to the fridge for milk but she knows when i am going to get her food as well and then she follows me to the fridge and i dont feed her at a set time.

[JulesP]

I just don't see this having a good end. I can see staffy out walking, seeing a cat and lunging out of the owners hands..... Or jumping out of the car at home, seeing a cat and taking off.... Also hope new home has good fences.

Personally I would be treating and housing this dog as if it had been declared a dangerous dog.

[wuffles]

I just don't see this having a good end. I can see staffy out walking, seeing a cat and lunging out of the owners hands..... Or jumping out of the car at home, seeing a cat and taking off.... Also hope new home has good fences.

Personally I would be treating and housing this dog as if it had been declared a dangerous dog.

There are lots and lots and lots of dogs in the world that would chase cats, including one of mine. I have no idea if he'd actually kill a cat or just chase it, but I don't take the risk. He's not difficult to manage. I think the issue here is more drive in general (mine is a lazy slug unless he sees a cat).