Question For Breeders

[corvus]

This is just a "feeling-out", semi-hypothetical sort of question for breeders.

I'm almost a year into my PhD and early next year if all goes well will be starting the main data collection process. I'm looking at the stability of temperament traits and whether they are related to behavioural tendencies. It is a tricky thing to tease out because as we all know learning plays a big part in the way dogs behave, so I'm starting with puppies and doing repeat measures over a couple of years to see what changes and what becomes stable and when.

One of the biggest problems will be getting people to commit to a 2 year project with their dogs. The police dog unit have agreed tentatively to allow me access to their dogs, but they only really have two breeds. Anything I find will be essentially only applicable to GSDs and Labs. I would love to include other breeds in the study, but I am not sure what my chances would be of getting access to dogs over a 2 year period.

My question is whether there are breeders that would be interested in participating. The idea of the project is to improve understanding of what kind of behaviour to expect from different dogs in the future. The police dog unit is reasonably keen because they are always interested in work that might be able to help them decide which dogs to train or breed from at an early agae. The shelters are also keen because they are interested in the smart allocation or resources as well. However, I understand a 2 year commitment is a big ask for pet owners and I now the purebreed community is sensitive about examining the differences in breeds. So this is just to explore whether it's something I should continue considering or forget about.

[Rysup]

I'd love to take part. Guess it's just a matter of when I have a litter and what I keep. I always keep at least 1, but I dont have litters that often. I think the whole concept is very exciting, and I cannot understand why anyone would be sensitive about it unless they have temperaments that they are subconsciously worried about.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Your supervisor is McGreevy right? Good luck getting registered breeders to give that man any data he can skew against them.

[corvus]

If anyone has any idea how this could be skewed against them they are welcome to bring it up with me, although I'd hope they would wait until they knew more about the project. Being Paul McGreevy's student doesn't mean I have no say in how the data I collect is analysed and published. It is an ethical requirement that I be transparent about the aims of the project and satisfactorily answer any queries potential participants have. If they can't bring themselves to trust me because of my supervisor, then that is a shame, but their choice.

RJ, you are a scientist, so you know that accusing someone of skewing data is fighting words. If I were you, I'd want to have some pretty solid proof of that before bandying it about on a public forum.

[Are You Serious Jo]

You should know that you can massage data to suit the outcome you want, everyone in academia knows this happens, well, maybe you don't Note I did not say falsify, just massage, which is selective data analysis.

There have been plenty of people here who have read his work and seen his interpretation of results. He is on record as stating that he thinks we should be crossbreeding and purebreds aren't healthy. Not sure if he still does, but he was standing a dog at stud of unknown parentage. There is plenty of proof of his agenda, so I'm quite happy to post what I did. Why would a registered breeder add data to a research group that is headed by a person who has a pre-existing bias against them?

[Jumabaar]

I would probably be ok with it- I guess already being in the faculty would make it easy lol.

Are you just looking at puppies or looking at lines? It's an interesting topic since I have seen all of my fist litter now a few times and it has been interesting to see things that they all have in common, even being raised very differently. I would be happy to ask owners about it.

I don't think we have enough research into this area so am more than happy to contribute some thing.

[deerhound owner]

Corvus, have you asked Dr C Wade? she is another one of those evil scientists that works with the scary Dr McGreevy :p She also has a Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever which she shows and breeds (I think he has a litter on the ground at the moment).

You'll never convince people that have preconcieved ideas about a person so don't mind them and move on

I have some breeder friends that I will ask for you too. Prehaps you could post this in the breeders forum aswell?

[Are You Serious Jo]

You can rolly eye all you want, it doesn't change the fact McGreevy is anti purebred breeder, as per his own published words. McGreevy himself is far from scary, it is the power he has managed to get that is of concern, along with the other people who use incorrect information to push their own agenda. But people are free to do what they want, the purebred dog world is going down the gurgler anyway.

[corvus]

I haven't asked Dr Wade, yet, although I think I met her when I started and she was quite interested. I will be actively hunting for people with puppies to participate next year when my pilot study is done. I won't be terribly fussy. Mixed breeds will also be welcome, I expect. For now I'm just feeling out. I'm not sure what I can expect from people and what the interest level might be.

Woofen, I won't be looking at lines except that there's a good chance I will be looking at dogs from particular lines by virtue of the fact that many of them will come from similar sources. If that made sense. By that I mean if I started looking at different breeds my sampling would probably be biased by the fact that some lines might be more common geographically close to me. Everything has to be interpreted in light of the sources of the dogs in the study.

Some folks appear to have selective memory about what Paul has said. I have actually spoken to the guy. At length. What some seem to think his agenda is is not what I think his agenda is, and I certainly formed that opinion objectively before I sought him as my supervisor. So either you believe the hearsay of someone who doesn't know him or the hearsay of someone who does. :p I'm not very interested in discussing supposed data massage, but I suggest those who are bring some proof to the table and take it up with the author in question. Maybe they can publish a response to it or replicate the work.

[WreckitWhippet]

Your supervisor is McGreevy right? Good luck getting registered breeders to give that man any data he can skew against them.

I wouldn't pee on that man if he was on fire, let alone give him anything relating to my dogs that's gauranteed to be used against pedigree dogs in the future.

[poodlefan]

Local puppy preschools would be a good source of subjects.

[Are You Serious Jo]

So either you believe the hearsay of someone who doesn't know him or the hearsay of someone who does.

What part of me saying it was in his published paper don't you understand? I don't know how to say it any clearer than that. I have the paper, I didn't hallucinate it, or hear it from anyone else, I read it myself. IT IS FROM A PUBLISHED PAPER HE AUTHORED. So unless he has changed his mind since then I have a good source for my assertion. I am sure you would already have this paper considering you are his student, or are you trying some form of damage control?

[raineth]

Corvus if I lived anywhere near you, and if I actually was going to get a puppy, I would love to participate in your research

[Greytmate]

You could try one of the bigger greyhound kennels that rear a lot of the puppies they breed.

Wheeler greyhound kennels

[corvus]

Oo, it would be interesting to look at greyhounds, thanks.

Raineth, if you're in Sydney there's always the pilot study. I have an honours student that will hopefully be starting a pilot study on shelter dogs in December, but I was intending to bolster the numbers with adult pet dogs.

Thanks for the suggestions, folks.

[raineth]

Oo, it would be interesting to look at greyhounds, thanks.

Raineth, if you're in Sydney there's always the pilot study. I have an honours student that will hopefully be starting a pilot study on shelter dogs in December, but I was intending to bolster the numbers with adult pet dogs.

Thanks for the suggestions, folks.

Nah, not in Sydney sadly

I hope you have a great time doing your research though! Sounds like loads of fun and very interesting

[MalteseLuna]

This is just a "feeling-out", semi-hypothetical sort of question for breeders.

I'm almost a year into my PhD and early next year if all goes well will be starting the main data collection process. I'm looking at the stability of temperament traits and whether they are related to behavioural tendencies. It is a tricky thing to tease out because as we all know learning plays a big part in the way dogs behave, so I'm starting with puppies and doing repeat measures over a couple of years to see what changes and what becomes stable and when.

One of the biggest problems will be getting people to commit to a 2 year project with their dogs. The police dog unit have agreed tentatively to allow me access to their dogs, but they only really have two breeds. Anything I find will be essentially only applicable to GSDs and Labs. I would love to include other breeds in the study, but I am not sure what my chances would be of getting access to dogs over a 2 year period.

My question is whether there are breeders that would be interested in participating. The idea of the project is to improve understanding of what kind of behaviour to expect from different dogs in the future. The police dog unit is reasonably keen because they are always interested in work that might be able to help them decide which dogs to train or breed from at an early agae. The shelters are also keen because they are interested in the smart allocation or resources as well. However, I understand a 2 year commitment is a big ask for pet owners and I now the purebreed community is sensitive about examining the differences in breeds. So this is just to explore whether it's something I should continue considering or forget about.

That sounds like a very interesting PhD topic Good luck with it!

I agree local puppy preschools might be a good place to find puppies for your study - does the Sydney Uni Vet run them? Might be a good starting point?

I would be happy to provide you with a Maltese - but she isn't a puppy :D If I get a puppy in the next year or so I will let you know (in case it's useful)!

Please bear in mind that whilst Corvus's PhD supervisor may have said certain things (I haven't read anything of his so don't know) - it is Corvus's research and project. Just because a supervisor is one way or has one opinion does not mean the student is that way (hope nobody thinks I'm a carbon copy of my supervisor ).

Claire Wade would probably be a useful contact - she is also a very nice woman and well respected researcher. I recently went to a presentation of her's on coat colour genes - was very interesting

[Steve]

Can you give me some more details of what you would need? Do we come to you or do you come to us? How many dogs from each person are you looking for etc?

[corvus]

Thanks MalteseLuna. I would like to think my project could be judged on its own merits, but if that doesn't work for some people, then that's a shame but it's their choice.

Steve, I would come to you. I'm training dogs in a discrimination task to test their cognitive bias, which is like optimism. I'm not sure yet how long it will take to train, but it would be spaced over several days. We would work out a timeline that would fit around the owner's daily commitments. I would come back to refresh the training and test cognitive bias every 6 months over 2 years. There will also be a survey asking about the dog's behaviour to fill out each time. I'm trying to make it as short and sweet as possible. As for numbers, it depends on distance, really. I might think twice about travelling for half an hour for one puppy, but I'd consider it for a few, especially from the same property. I don't currently have much running money, so it comes down to how far I can afford to travel and sensible allocation of time.

Hope that helps. There would be more details and an information sheet. I'm just guaging interest for now.

[Steve]

Thanks MalteseLuna. I would like to think my project could be judged on its own merits, but if that doesn't work for some people, then that's a shame but it's their choice.

Steve, I would come to you. I'm training dogs in a discrimination task to test their cognitive bias, which is like optimism. I'm not sure yet how long it will take to train, but it would be spaced over several days. We would work out a timeline that would fit around the owner's daily commitments. I would come back to refresh the training and test cognitive bias every 6 months over 2 years. There will also be a survey asking about the dog's behaviour to fill out each time. I'm trying to make it as short and sweet as possible. As for numbers, it depends on distance, really. I might think twice about travelling for half an hour for one puppy, but I'd consider it for a few, especially from the same property. I don't currently have much running money, so it comes down to how far I can afford to travel and sensible allocation of time.

Hope that helps. There would be more details and an information sheet. I'm just guaging interest for now.

Is breed an issue? I would imagine if you came here the difference between my beagles and maremmas would be huge.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Steve