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[Sheridan]

Why can't you export Limited Register puppies? And how does this impact on pet owners emigrating or breeders who have both limited and main dogs?

Is that not a restriction of trade??

Because the ANKC says so. Yes it restricts an ANKC breeder for selling a dog they want to place on limited to an overseas home if they want to provide transferable limited papers. But the law will not see it as restraint of trade, you can still sell your puppy, you just won't do it with ANKC limited transferable papers. Your choice is yours to belong to the club and follow their rules or not.

BTW almost all countires now have limited rego, so this could be done if the clubs wanted to do it. I think dogs back and forth from AKC to CKC on limited. Not sure about the UK. And there are several other registeres outside kennel club that have international recognition of other clubs limited rego for transfers. Why not, let people join the club and do activies, the dog is purebred, it is just not for breeding or show ring.

So, they can do something when they feel like it. I'm surprised at this, though, because the CCs would get money from the exports. And that's what it's about, isn't it. Moneygrubbing.

[Steve]

I wrote this way back in the thread: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?s=&a...t&p=4975666

They don't have to grant the export licence. MacDougal hides behind the veneer of respectability and advertises that he gets his dogs from registered breeders. The CCs can stop that. It's not a restriction of trade, they're simply not granting the licence. After all, it's not needed to export.

The export certificate isnt a licence - all it gives is a registration paper for change of owner or chage of residence to one in another country just exactly as it does when an owner changes address or changes ownership within Australia.

In NSW we register the pup into the breeders name and then the owner changes it into their name when they get the papers .The only difference is that in this case the owner lives over seas. The NSW Cc doesnt know we are getting the rego papers to export the pup - they tell us we have to register all pups so we do.

You miss the point. MacDougal does this for the respectability. It doesn't matter what it actually does, it's the appearance of it. If he doesn't get the papers, he doesn't get the veneer of respectability that he obviously wants.

O.K. But how to you stop him from getting the papers ? By then they are his dogs and he can have the rego papers changed over to him because he is the new owner. He may even put them in under the new owner who buys them from him for all we know. Come to think of it he probably does - because thats how it works with breeders who sell to Austalian pet shops. Breeders only sign the back of the rego papers not who the owner is so at any point there after the papers can be filled in by any owner and issued via the CC.

I'm sorry we have been talking about how the ANKC should be able to do these sorts of things for ever and it always comes back to they cant . There isnt any point in siting what can be done in other countries or what ethically or morally should be able to happen .Our federal laws take precedence and they are different to other countries.

[shortstep]

So, they can do something when they feel like it. I'm surprised at this, though, because the CCs would get money from the exports. And that's what it's about, isn't it. Moneygrubbing.

I would guess it is a left over from a time when most KC did not have limited programs and there is no method already set up for transfering them.

It is something that could be looked at and redone if there was the desire.

[t-time]

O.K. But how to you stop him from getting the papers ? By then they are his dogs and he can have the rego papers changed over to him because he is the new owner. He may even put them in under the new owner who buys them from him for all we know. Come to think of it he probably does - because thats how it works with breeders who sell to Austalian pet shops. Breeders only sign the back of the rego papers not who the owner is so at any point there after the papers can be filled in by any owner and issued via the CC.

The export pedigree is registered to him therefore his name appears in our journals. So there is a point where all these dogs are officially "his".

I just want to qualify my "employees" comment by saying there are certain prefixes - and we all know them - which are breeding exclusively for McDougal. They are Australian-based breeders, paid by him to get what he needs as far as pups are concerned and I *believe* he sets up individuals and pays them well to keep raising these litters and registering pups under their own prefix and solely exporting the litters to McDougal. Over the years, I have only ever occasionally seen an "outsider" - or more "insider" someone within the dog world - export to McDougal.

[SpikesPuppy]

Why can't you export Limited Register puppies? And how does this impact on pet owners emigrating or breeders who have both limited and main dogs?

Is that not a restriction of trade??

Because the ANKC says so. Yes it restricts an ANKC breeder for selling a dog they want to place on limited to an overseas home if they want to provide transferable limited papers. But the law will not see it as restraint of trade, you can still sell your puppy, you just won't do it with ANKC limited transferable papers. Your choice is yours to belong to the club and follow their rules or not.

BTW almost all countires now have limited rego, so this could be done if the clubs wanted to do it. I think dogs back and forth from AKC to CKC on limited. Not sure about the UK. And there are several other registeres outside kennel club that have international recognition of other clubs limited rego for transfers. Why not, let people join the club and do activies, the dog is purebred, it is just not for breeding or show ring.

So, they can do something when they feel like it. I'm surprised at this, though, because the CCs would get money from the exports. And that's what it's about, isn't it. Moneygrubbing.

Exactly.

I just don't see the difference (in terms of Federal restriction of trade), in exporting a dog with Main or Limited register?

It's just a smokescreen, an excuse to keep raking in the $$$$$.

[shortstep]

I'm sorry we have been talking about how the ANKC should be able to do these sorts of things for ever and it always comes back to they cant . There isnt any point in siting what can be done in other countries or what ethically or morally should be able to happen .Our federal laws take precedence and they are different to other countries.

Look I was staying out of this as it appears there is some sort of racket going on with puppies and everyone knows about it but me.

But I still say you can not avoid making a stand on ethcial social issues just because some people will not play by the rules.

Today, we need to make a stand on puppy farming, sales to pet shops and a few other ethical issues that society is damanding we address.

It is simple enough to make the rules and it should be done.

Those who do not play by the rules should be delt with and this can be somthing we then explore.

But first you must set the standards for ANKC, that must come first.

We either support puppy farms or we do not, we either think it is ok to sell ANKC puppies to pet shops or we do not.

Edited November 24, 2010 by shortstep

[t-time]

Last time I flew a pup O/S, the pup was required to be 12 weeks and that was a quarantine (federal) requirement and not an ANKC thing.

[t-time]

I *must* register a red sable Havanese on the Limited Register in Australia - it is not a recognised colour according to the ANKC Breed Standard.

I can't then export that dog as a pet as it is on the Limited Register - 'tis the rules. Limit Register dogs cannot be exported (with papers).

Red Sable is an acceptable colour for a Havanese in the USA - but I can't register that dog on the Main Register in order for it to be exported and shown in America.

How is that NOT restriction of trade?

The only option is to diddle the colour when I submit my litter rego papers - that's against the rules - but ok - the pup is now officially "fawn".

Just a hypothetical as I've never bred a sable

[shortstep]

Last time I flew a pup O/S, the pup was required to be 12 weeks and that was a quarantine (federal) requirement and not an ANKC thing.

Might be the rule has changed since I looked at it. I heard recently that 6 months of age was under consideration. That would shut down the export of puppies as pet shops don't want 6 month old dogs. I would also hate to see ANKC registered breeders that were by club rules not placing with pet shops or retailers to be under that rule.

This topic would take some cooperation and planning with the governement to solve. Which I am sure the animal rights folks are already doing.

We (ANKC) of course would need to have our rules in place that none of our breeders were allowed to sell to put shops or retail, before we could enter into to any discussion and be taken as crediable on our sincerty to not participate in this unethcial practice.

Edited November 24, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

Why can't you export Limited Register puppies? And how does this impact on pet owners emigrating or breeders who have both limited and main dogs?

Is that not a restriction of trade??

Because the ANKC says so. Yes it restricts an ANKC breeder for selling a dog they want to place on limited to an overseas home if they want to provide transferable limited papers. But the law will not see it as restraint of trade, you can still sell your puppy, you just won't do it with ANKC limited transferable papers. Your choice is yours to belong to the club and follow their rules or not.

BTW almost all countires now have limited rego, so this could be done if the clubs wanted to do it. I think dogs back and forth from AKC to CKC on limited. Not sure about the UK. And there are several other registeres outside kennel club that have international recognition of other clubs limited rego for transfers. Why not, let people join the club and do activies, the dog is purebred, it is just not for breeding or show ring.

No you can still export limited register puppies and dogs but the limited register is for pets so there isnt ny reason for a person to want to have an export certificate. The fact that the export certifiate is only issued to main register is because that iTs supposed to be used for people to be able to tranfer the dog from the aussie registry to the overseas one to be able to breed registered puppies and show the dog in that country.

[Steve]

O.K. But how to you stop him from getting the papers ? By then they are his dogs and he can have the rego papers changed over to him because he is the new owner. He may even put them in under the new owner who buys them from him for all we know. Come to think of it he probably does - because thats how it works with breeders who sell to Austalian pet shops. Breeders only sign the back of the rego papers not who the owner is so at any point there after the papers can be filled in by any owner and issued via the CC.

The export pedigree is registered to him therefore his name appears in our journals. So there is a point where all these dogs are officially "his".

I just want to qualify my "employees" comment by saying there are certain prefixes - and we all know them - which are breeding exclusively for McDougal. They are Australian-based breeders, paid by him to get what he needs as far as pups are concerned and I *believe* he sets up individuals and pays them well to keep raising these litters and registering pups under their own prefix and solely exporting the litters to McDougal. Over the years, I have only ever occasionally seen an "outsider" - or more "insider" someone within the dog world - export to McDougal.

No I think you have it a bit wrong there - any breeder can sell their puppies to Transpet and there isnt any need for him to set up breeders and pay them because they just accept puppies from everyone who wants to sell them. the reason you only see a certain few shipping a lot is because only a andful really do but apart from that some regsitries over sease accept the blue papers as all they need and dont require an export cert so thise ones dont show up in the export lists.

Lots go out via Sydney and Perth and export cets from the CC are never applied for so those never show up anyway.

[Steve]

Last time I flew a pup O/S, the pup was required to be 12 weeks and that was a quarantine (federal) requirement and not an ANKC thing.

Well that would depend on which country you were exporting to some have 12 weeks some - most have 8

[shortstep]

Why can't you export Limited Register puppies? And how does this impact on pet owners emigrating or breeders who have both limited and main dogs?

Is that not a restriction of trade??

Because the ANKC says so. Yes it restricts an ANKC breeder for selling a dog they want to place on limited to an overseas home if they want to provide transferable limited papers. But the law will not see it as restraint of trade, you can still sell your puppy, you just won't do it with ANKC limited transferable papers. Your choice is yours to belong to the club and follow their rules or not.

BTW almost all countires now have limited rego, so this could be done if the clubs wanted to do it. I think dogs back and forth from AKC to CKC on limited. Not sure about the UK. And there are several other registeres outside kennel club that have international recognition of other clubs limited rego for transfers. Why not, let people join the club and do activies, the dog is purebred, it is just not for breeding or show ring.

No you can still export limited register puppies and dogs but the limited register is for pets so there isnt ny reason for a person to want to have an export certificate. The fact that the export certifiate is only issued to main register is because that iTs supposed to be used for people to be able to tranfer the dog from the aussie registry to the overseas one to be able to breed registered puppies and show the dog in that country.

Yes and when I export a limited registered dog to the US or Canada, both of which have m limited register programs, these people can not particpate in the Kennel club activites that allow limited registered dogs like agility ( remember not all countires allow associate dogs and even other rules can apply, for example a dog cannot go on the world agility team if it is not on main or limited register of it's home country register. So why can't an Oz export get the same opertunity and if you will bennfits that all limited KC registered dogs have, just becaseu they move to another country. They should have all their rights and priviliages transferable to any KC within the limited program.

So lots more going on then just dog shows or breeding.

Edited November 24, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

Most of you know that if there is some reason to beat up the CCs Im the first to say so but in the case of stopping registered breeders from exporting puppies via dealers or selling to pet shops, or restricting how many they can breed its not fair to blame them and each time we start to talk about it pages and pages go on until we end up in the same place. Its the same conversation with the same things being said as it was when we decided the ONLY way we could make a distinction between breeders who do and those who dont was to set up a separate org which was under a business entity which allowed them to say their members wouldnt do it.

It was why we set up the MDBA from day one the way we did and nothing has changed.

[Steve]

Why can't you export Limited Register puppies? And how does this impact on pet owners emigrating or breeders who have both limited and main dogs?

Is that not a restriction of trade??

Because the ANKC says so. Yes it restricts an ANKC breeder for selling a dog they want to place on limited to an overseas home if they want to provide transferable limited papers. But the law will not see it as restraint of trade, you can still sell your puppy, you just won't do it with ANKC limited transferable papers. Your choice is yours to belong to the club and follow their rules or not.

BTW almost all countires now have limited rego, so this could be done if the clubs wanted to do it. I think dogs back and forth from AKC to CKC on limited. Not sure about the UK. And there are several other registeres outside kennel club that have international recognition of other clubs limited rego for transfers. Why not, let people join the club and do activies, the dog is purebred, it is just not for breeding or show ring.

No you can still export limited register puppies and dogs but the limited register is for pets so there isnt ny reason for a person to want to have an export certificate. The fact that the export certifiate is only issued to main register is because that iTs supposed to be used for people to be able to tranfer the dog from the aussie registry to the overseas one to be able to breed registered puppies and show the dog in that country.

Yes and when I export a limited registered dog to the US or Canada, both of which have m limited register programs, these people can not particpate in the Kennel club activites that allow limited registered dogs like agility ( remember not all countires allow associate dogs and even other rules can apply, for example a dog cannot go on the world agility team if it is not on main or limited register of it's home country register. So why can't an Oz export get the same opertunity and if you will bennfits that all limited KC registered dogs have, just becaseu they move to another country. They should have all their rights and priviliages transferable to any KC within the limited program.

So lots more going on then just dog shows or breeding.

But whether the export certificate is issued or not its still on the limited register of its home country or does home mean where it lives rather than where it was born?

[shortstep]

Most of you know that if there is some reason to beat up the CCs Im the first to say so but in the case of stopping registered breeders from exporting puppies via dealers or selling to pet shops, or restricting how many they can breed its not fair to blame them and each time we start to talk about it pages and pages go on until we end up in the same place. Its the same conversation with the same things being said as it was when we decided the ONLY way we could make a distinction between breeders who do and those who dont was to set up a separate org which was under a business entity which allowed them to say their members wouldnt do it.

It was why we set up the MDBA from day one the way we did and nothing has changed.

I am not blaming the ANKC, but I do think it is time to look at what has been done and results it has gotten. Then make new and differnet plans to get the results that we want. Being taken down bit by bit day after day is a heck of way to go eh? and all the time refusing to address the issues we need address. MDBA is great, but will not save ANKC. The changes have to come at that level and apply to all members. Least that is how I see it.

And in reality, I do not think for a min that any of this will be done. It would take a total change of position and a lot of people determined to push it through, even then it would be like pushing ... up hill. LOL

But it does beg the question, are some KC's in the world reaching the end of their use by dates? Clearly some are adjusting and doing very well, but also just as clear some others are not making an adjustments and the future is very uncertain.

So on that cheery thought, I am off to buy food!

So no more ramblings by me for a while...LOL

Edited November 24, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

But whether the export certificate is issued or not its still on the limited register of its home country or does home mean where it lives rather than where it was born?

It has to be registered in the KC of the county it lives in and is on the team representing. So If I send a limited to the US, it can not be registered there on limited because there is no system between OZ and the US to do that. So that dog could never be treated as a purebred dog, which would include being refused the right to represent the US on their world team as a purebred dog. Yet there will lots of limited registred dogs on the US team, just not OZ limited.

See how it works?

Edited November 24, 2010 by shortstep

[Greytmate]

Jed I disagree.

I would rather see stud services limited and breeders importing frozen semen from other clear lines. Especially if A breed is in such bad genetic shape in this country as you describe.

If we had the restriction of stud services, instead of people importing one dog, and studding it out as much as they possibly can (and making a fortune), they might choose to import a shipment of frozen semen containing straws from a few different stud dogs with clear lines (and selling those for a fortune instead).

Why ? You cant ask for this because you cant say what the breeder or breeders would be going after in their breeding program and every breed would have different goals at different times.

Because it prevents individual dogs being abused (by puppy farmers) and it encourages (forces) genetic diversity. Two or three lines are more diverse than one.

Jed I disagree.

I would rather see stud services limited and breeders importing frozen semen from other clear lines. Especially if A breed is in such bad genetic shape in this country as you describe.

If we had the restriction of stud services, instead of people importing one dog, and studding it out as much as they possibly can (and making a fortune), they might choose to import a shipment of frozen semen containing straws from a few different stud dogs with clear lines (and selling those for a fortune instead).

You assume that every breeder will want to use an "import" and that's not the case, not every breeder is blinded by the words " imported xxx " on the paperwork and many tread with caution, assess the whole dog and never go there.

No, I assume that that we are talking about a hypothetical scenario (posed by Jed) where the only other option is to use a dog that carries a genetic illness. I believe it is possible to assess a dog's quality even if it is overseas. I don't care whether the dog is imported from Sweden, or "imported" from Townsville. If the breed is at such a serious bottle neck, It is important to bring in new lines. I would rather see a variety of lines available rather than one dog being overused, and ending up in every single line. Restricting service numbers would encourage this.

I wont use an AI frozen or other wise. I can name you at least three breeds where the dogs rarely have sex as dogs do anymore and cant reproduce without human intervention and there isnt a chance anything here gets to make babies unless the boy can get it up and get it in . Dogs tell you when they shouldn't be mating before any X ray or test does. Crook hips wont hold their weight either.

One breed has been doing nothing but AIs for over 15 years - hip scores are huge, most have to be given progesterone to maintain the litter , really high incidence of C sections and they suck as mothers. then the breeders take a bow because inthe year 2010 the more you interfer with mating and whelping the better the breeder you are. Ais are good if its for a genetic clear you need for one generation but its a last resort for me.

Yes, last resort. Jed posted a horrible scenario about a breed in really bad genetic shape. There is no stud dog in Australia that isn't a carrier, and hard decisions have to be made.

While I still believe that stud services should be restricted in general, if breed organisations can show why a temporary exemption should be made, that would sound reasonable to me. Especially after the explanation you gave me. In the same way that it might be reasonable to give a breed permission to open a stud book for a time.

I'm not a genetic expert. However I think that genetic experts need to look at the breed as a whole rather than just the breed in this country. There would also need to be a compulsion for people within that breed to follow that plan set for them. And I think it would be harder to enforce that than it would to enforce just a straight limit of stud services.

Most studs are overused by people for reasons other than the genetic health of the whole breed, so that is the main reason behind my suggestion. Overuse of stud dogs has caused problems. If people are prepared to put even more onerous voluntary restrictions on themselves in the form of breeding laws written by experts, I do believe there is a case for gaining an exemption.

[t-time]

No you can still export limited register puppies and dogs but the limited register is for pets so there isnt ny reason for a person to want to have an export certificate. The fact that the export certifiate is only issued to main register is because that iTs supposed to be used for people to be able to tranfer the dog from the aussie registry to the overseas one to be able to breed registered puppies and show the dog in that country.

Sorry Steve but you are wrong. Perhaps it's a different rule for Qld? (AGAIN! )

I have an LR paper in front of me and on the back it says:

"Limited Register Regulations

- A dog shall only be eligible for registration in the limited register if it is:

1) ineligible for exhibition at a conformation show;or

2) for any reason, not to be used for breeding purposes;or

3) not entire or has been desexed;and

4) not eligible for export"

[Sandra777]

I have an LR paper in front of me and on the back it says:

"Limited Register Regulations

- A dog shall only be eligible for registration in the limited register if it is:

1) ineligible for exhibition at a conformation show;or

2) for any reason, not to be used for breeding purposes;or

3) not entire or has been desexed;and

4) not eligible for export"

This doesn't prevent anyone exporting a LR dog though - it just stops them getting an export certificate for one.