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[sllebasi]

sounds to me like there are too many chiefs and not enough indians and people are just running rampant under whatever rules they want to come under, and its the people that do the right thing that will end up getting caught, restricted in any future events and hauled over the coals for it.

[raz]

That makes sense RSG. I agree with you - I imagine not much is done about it.

[Steve]

Some of these comments concern me a bit. Im not that sure that many really know what a breeder is capapble of doing and pretty quickly in their own back yard in reasonably short time which can do miracles for the breed.

Its all about goals and what you know you have , what you dont know you have and how many you have to work with.

Lets go back to an actual case before in breeding became such a major taboo and before having more than a couple of litters each year became politically in correct and before we had to make bitches do things which were not conducive to what her species had evolved to do.

The breeder has 40 bitches and 6 stud dogs which are not related .They write up a closed breeding program designed to get to the end of a 5 year period with dogs which will be able to be used for breeding by themsleves and other breeders which will be clear of the problem they are targeting and they select first and foremost for nothing else and with all other things taking second place. Not only will this closed program show them where the problem is and is not in their dogs but it will also show where there may be others they will need to address as the program progresses and what lines other breeders may need to be aware of which they may be still using too. Even better if another breeder is doing the same with different dogs to enable outcrosses. As this breeding program is worked through depending on what turns up and in what incidence the breeder is going to need to make decisions which were not on the table and not anticipated at the beginning because genes are tricky but can you imagine what the potential benefit that is for the breed? Its not that different to what is going on now with many breed clubs who are saying what disease needs to be tested for and what results are not acceptable for breeding - especially those who are making it compulsory for registration anyway but its a much slower process.

Even for breeders who dont go right into it as described above every one of us will see things which we need to take action on quickly to ensure it doesnt become a major blight on future generations of the breed.

Breeders should be encouraged to do this rather than be told that in breeding shouldnt be used as a tool to identify and eliminate a problem, rather than be told they are being restricted in how many litters they have each year, rather than being told what stud dog to use and how often etc.

A stud dog thats used over a hundred bitches which a hundred people own for no other reason than because he is a champion is going to potentailly do much worse for the breed over a couple of generations than any breeder who is following a planned program with goals for specific health issues is going to do - yet those breeders may only breed a couple of litters each year and never in breed. They may breed more champions because thats what they are using as a goal but that isnt to say they are breeding to the betterment of the breed. Yet it seems that this is what most of you see as a preferrable way for a breeder to behave.

[Steve]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

Can the ANKC refuse to sign off on the exportation application so they cannot be sent overseas with their papers?

The state CCs make lots and lots of money from export certificates and usually by the time the applications go in for the certificate the puppies are long gone. Puppies are exported at 8 weeks but CC wont issue the certificate until they are 12 weeks. All puppies that go out are under AQIS regs so on what grounds would the CC stop issuing an export certificate? Whats more the new owner can ask for an export certificate anyway - stopping the breeder being issued with them wont get us anywhere. people only need a CC issued export certificate anyway if they intend showing or breeding. Stopping them being issued for pet shop puppies isnt going to make a scrap of difference. No matter what box the breeder ticks you cant stop an owner taking their dogs overseas. History tells us that when the CC even listed the exports each month in NSW they all moved to have export certs done via the ACT.These puppies arent going out with boxes ticked for no export the breeders want them exported . You cant stop that.

Thanks for the more detailed answer- like I said, I've not exported before or really thought about it.

Makes you wonder what the point of all our $$$ is if they can't do anything to protect the dogs or even our sport. I can see why people grow disillusioned and drop off the membership whilst still breeding.

Perhaps a higher fee for the processing of the export application?

So it's sounding like there is little the ANKC or state CCs can do regarding restriction of trade but surely they can introduce monetary penalties for those doing the wrong thing? On that note, do they have a process for members found selling to pet stores?

Dogs NSW has lowered the price of the export cert because they lost over 160,000 in one financial year in export certs to the ACT - who had a lower rate and back then didnt publish exports.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

sounds to me like there are too many chiefs and not enough indians and people are just running rampant under whatever rules they want to come under, and its the people that do the right thing that will end up getting caught, restricted in any future events and hauled over the coals for it.

Yep thats how I see it too.

[sllebasi]

Steve, am trying to send you p.m. about another issue, can you empty your inbox please.

[Steve]

I wont use an AI frozen or other wise. I can name you at least three breeds where the dogs rarely have sex as dogs do anymore and cant reproduce without human intervention and there isnt a chance anything here gets to make babies unless the boy can get it up and get it in . Dogs tell you when they shouldn't be mating before any X ray or test does. Crook hips wont hold their weight either.

One breed has been doing nothing but AIs for over 15 years - hip scores are huge, most have to be given progesterone to maintain the litter , really high incidence of C sections and they suck as mothers. then the breeders take a bow because inthe year 2010 the more you interfer with mating and whelping the better the breeder you are. Ais are good if its for a genetic clear you need for one generation but its a last resort for me.

[Steve]

Steve, am trying to send you p.m. about another issue, can you empty your inbox please.

No can do - go email.

[email protected]

[t-time]

As long as they are PIAA accredited, breeders can sell to pet shops and wholesalers. Code of Ethics for dogsnsw

A Member shall not:

(a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited

by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

I dont know what their process is if a breeder is caught selling to non PIAA members

Thanks, this is what I was trying to get to in my last post but you've said it better. :D The above rule is similar in every state.

The CCs being "toothless tigers" once again springs to mind.

Federal trade restrictions can't stop a club having rules and regs - isn't it simple that members who don't abide by the rules be chucked out??

I don't believe we need more rules and regs - just enforce the ones we've got!

Im not that sure that many really know what a breeder is capapble of doing and pretty quickly in their own back yard in reasonably short time which can do miracles for the breed.

I do Steve and I totally agree with your example.

Getting back to exports - I do object to the sheer volume of pups exported *to* McDougal particularly as they are entire puppies on the ANKC Main Register - please tell me how that is ethical? I really can't see that the *employees* he sets up in Australia are doing anything for the breeds they pump out.

[Steve]

As long as they are PIAA accredited, breeders can sell to pet shops and wholesalers. Code of Ethics for dogsnsw

A Member shall not:

(a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited

by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

I dont know what their process is if a breeder is caught selling to non PIAA members

Thanks, this is what I was trying to get to in my last post but you've said it better. :D The above rule is similar in every state.

The CCs being "toothless tigers" once again springs to mind.

Federal trade restrictions can't stop a club having rules and regs - isn't it simple that members who don't abide by the rules be chucked out??

I don't believe we need more rules and regs - just enforce the ones we've got!

Im not that sure that many really know what a breeder is capapble of doing and pretty quickly in their own back yard in reasonably short time which can do miracles for the breed.

I do Steve and I totally agree with your example.

Getting back to exports - I do object to the sheer volume of pups exported *to* McDougal particularly as they are entire puppies on the ANKC Main Register - please tell me how that is ethical? I really can't see that the *employees* he sets up in Australia are doing anything for the breeds they pump out.

Again - what employees ?

[raz]

Again - what employees ?

I think tt means the breeders that sell to him.

[Steve]

Again - what employees ?

I think tt means the breeders that sell to him.

Oh I get it .

[Steve]

I may as well talk about this here as Im after everyone including breeders being involved in the conversation if they are interested.

Here is one of the biggest issues.

For ever we have heard "the betterment of the breed" the Canine Councils codes say we are not to breed only for the commercial or pet market. Im too lazy to look up the exact wording but that is about what it says.

So lots of breeders who show dogs think that means that they will breed show dogs and the betterment of the breed means having a priority of breeding dogs which ft the breed standard in looks and temperament.

They wont sell a good pup to someone who wants to breed a pup who wont be showing it because for them thats evidence they are not interested in the better ment of the breed.

Lets say hypothetical - because its recently been debated here on this forum and isnt this easy anyway especially in this breed due to MVD incidence but for the sake of an example.

If I decided I wanted to breed cavs and I wanted to put the show ring on hold if I had to for a while in order to breed cavs which had less or no chance of having SM.

My main selection criteria may be only using scanned dogs with an A score but obviously if I started with only scanned A dogs which were also great examples of the breed and the best choices for breeding dogs whch looked the part as well as being clear of SM that would be a better start and potentailly better for what im doing as my part for betterment of the breed. If I can only get dogs which are not that posh in regard to the breed standard or temperament then when its done its a much more difficult chore to have dogs which are clear but also an asset to a breeding program because its closer to fitting the breed standard.

You try explaining that and getting the breeders to even consider you may be going to breed for the betterment of the breed because for them if you are not going to show the dogs, or if you are going to be breeding more than average to try to get it right you are a flthy puppy farmer. Those watching and counting how many puppies are being registered without them being shown have a field day.

I have worked on 3 issues like this over 35 years which were occurring in my dogs and I have been successful in eliminating them and in the middle I bred some ugly dogs and then went back to basics to breed better dogs according to the standard and they gained their championships. But anyone from the show ring watching me would determine I was breeding without concern for the betterment of the breed and only for money. I wish.

These are issues which make a purebred breeder different to any other breeder because anyone can breed a champ or a pet but doing that and ensuring they are also healthy consistently for generations to come is what stands us apart and its why Im really concerned about 'experts' who only see the issue as what the current litter is all about .Im also concerned that the true meaning of betterment of the breed has been altered and is now seen to mean nothing more than champions. Thats part of it but not all of it.

[shortstep]

Puppies are exported at 8 weeks but CC wont issue the certificate until they are 12 weeks.

Just wanted to clarify that ANKC breeders by our rules cannot export until the pup is 11 weeks old.

The government rule is 8 weeks of age.

So if an ANKC breeders sends a pup overseas at 8 weeks they are breaking the code of conduct and should be dealt with.

[Steve]

Puppies are exported at 8 weeks but CC wont issue the certificate until they are 12 weeks.

Just wanted to clarify that ANKC breeders by our rules cannot export until the pup is 11 weeks old.

The government rule is 8 weeks of age.

So if an ANKC breeders sends a pup overseas at 8 weeks they are breaking the code of conduct and should be dealt with.

they dont by then the new owners export them not the breeder. The breeder sells the pup to the buyer - transpet who ships them out the next day.

The export certs are put in when the pup is 12 weeks old.

Simple.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Steve

[shortstep]

So it's sounding like there is little the ANKC or state CCs can do regarding restriction of trade but surely they can introduce monetary penalties for those doing the wrong thing? On that note, do they have a process for members found selling to pet stores?

As long as they are PIAA accredited, breeders can sell to pet shops and wholesalers. Code of Ethics for dogsnsw

A Member shall not:

(a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited

by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

I dont know what their process is if a breeder is caught selling to non PIAA members

Well that very rule blows the restraint of trade idea right out the window. Why can they restrain them to only selling PIAA shops, it still is restraining. This rule is here because they think it sounds more ethical then saying yes our breeder supply the pet shops, so have made a rule about it to soften the sound of it. No one is fooled.

And if they want to take a real stand on this issue not just give it lip service, they could also make a rule that said ANKC members can not sell any dog to any commercial dog wholesaler or retail pet dealers. End of blaming ANKC breeders for this welfare issue and we can proudly make a clear statement that we do not particiapte in that industry.

[Steve]

So it's sounding like there is little the ANKC or state CCs can do regarding restriction of trade but surely they can introduce monetary penalties for those doing the wrong thing? On that note, do they have a process for members found selling to pet stores?

As long as they are PIAA accredited, breeders can sell to pet shops and wholesalers. Code of Ethics for dogsnsw

A Member shall not:

(a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited

by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

I dont know what their process is if a breeder is caught selling to non PIAA members

Well that very rule blows the restraint of trade idea right out the window. Why can they restrain them to only selling PIAA shops, it still is restraining. This rule is here because they think it sounds more ethical then saying yes our breeder supply the pet shops, so have made a rule about it to soften the sound of it. No one is fooled.

And if they want to take a real stand on this issue not just give it lip service, they could also make a rule that said ANKC members can not sell any dog to any commercial dog wholesaler or retail pet dealers. End of blaming ANKC breeders for this welfare issue and we can proudly make a clear statement that we do not particiapte in that industry.

Shortstep. This has all already been tested in court and legal advice has told them it cant be done . Allowing them to restrict to a PIAA members is supposed to limit the ability to do that - back when it first came in in NSW there were only 2 in the state.Since then Transpet has become a PIAA member and numbers of PIAA pet shops has obviously risen. It was the best compromise they had because they couldnt stop them selling to a pet shop or an agent across the board.

What is the point in continuing to call to stop things which they cant stop. They cant stop an owner exporting their puppies and by the time the pup is exported the breeder is no longer the owner. When they start looking at stopping selling to someone like transpet its not just the members they have to answer to - its the agents and pet shops because they are restricting their trade too. Its cant be done under current federal law - they know this because its been tested .

[Sheridan]

Shortstep. This has all already been tested in court and legal advice has told them it cant be done . Allowing them to restrict to a PIAA members is supposed to limit the ability to do that - back when it first came in in NSW there were only 2 in the state.Since then Transpet has become a PIAA member and numbers of PIAA pet shops has obviously risen. It was the best compromise they had because they couldnt stop them selling to a pet shop or an agent across the board.

What is the point in continuing to call to stop things which they cant stop. They cant stop an owner exporting their puppies and by the time the pup is exported the breeder is no longer the owner. When they start looking at stopping selling to someone like transpet its not just the members they have to answer to - its the agents and pet shops because they are restricting their trade too. Its cant be done under current federal law - they know this because its been tested .

I wrote this way back in the thread: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?s=&a...t&p=4975666

They don't have to grant the export licence. MacDougal hides behind the veneer of respectability and advertises that he gets his dogs from registered breeders. The CCs can stop that. It's not a restriction of trade, they're simply not granting the licence. After all, it's not needed to export.

[SpikesPuppy]

So it's sounding like there is little the ANKC or state CCs can do regarding restriction of trade but surely they can introduce monetary penalties for those doing the wrong thing? On that note, do they have a process for members found selling to pet stores?

As long as they are PIAA accredited, breeders can sell to pet shops and wholesalers. Code of Ethics for dogsnsw

A Member shall not:

(a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited

by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

I dont know what their process is if a breeder is caught selling to non PIAA members

Sorry meant to say other than PIAA stores, was about to head in the tunnel on the train and typing in a rush lol.

Have to agree with RSG though, probably do nothing. Which begs the question, why bother with the rule if it's not going to be enforced??

[shortstep]

I don't believe we need more rules and regs - just enforce the ones we've got!

I agree that rules need to be enforced.

However I feel we need clear rules about puppy farming, pet shop pet trade sales, and several other social ethical welfare issues with dogs. Thinking that a few members wil not obey the rules is not a reason to fail to make the rules ANKC also has to learn how to enforce them.

We can no longer ignor or give lip service to the major ethical social issues surronding dogs. We have been doing that and it is clearly not working. We need to change if we want to survive. We need to take clear and real action, that gives only one message, we do not support nor allow partication in these activities by our members.

Edited November 23, 2010 by shortstep