Next Question

[Steve]

So given this has already been tested and they have been told by the ACCC that they cant restrict numbers of litters or puppies bred and they cant restrict where their members can sell their puppies - and that at least one board member of a CC is definitley pumping out a hell of a lot of litters and puppies and selling them to a pet shop /agent . How are they to get around this and do what you suggest and take away the rights of a member to breed more than someone else or more than some line drawn?

Also please remember no one who is involved in making suggestions for law or reg changes uses that as a definition for puppy farming - in fact from memory some people who attended the breeding better dogs seminar advocated more puppies being bred for the pet market and not less. With less breeders and more need to eliminate more dogs from the gene pool wouldnt a breeder who bred more rather than less have an advantage in dealing with issues that might show up?

Shouldnt we be advocting more education and more opportunity to utilise resources and for breeders to be able to make their own decisions based on what is going on in their yard and what they can cope with depending on their life style and access to help etc.

[SpikesPuppy]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member’s Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

[Steve]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

[SpikesPuppy]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

Can the ANKC refuse to sign off on the exportation application so they cannot be sent overseas with their papers?

[shortstep]

Greytmate

I'm for regulating number of litters a dog can have, regulating how many times a dog can be used at stud, regulating how many people/staff per dog per property

I see the sense in this. However, just to be (as usual) the fly in the ointment. Consider A breed. 2 fatal diseases. DNA tests recently developed. Many of the better dogs are found to be carriers for one disease or another. The choices in stud dogs are limited - if they aren't carriers for one disease, the bitch is. Some dogs are carriers for both. Remember there was no way to identify the problem until the dog developed symptoms.

A new dog is imported. He is clear of everything, so all the carriers can safely be mated to him. He does not have many genes in common with any of the bitches, so he is an outcross which gives breeders and opportunity to breed clear or carrier pups from their lovely, but carrier status bitches.

So he is used very extensively at stud. However, the pups by him can now go on and breed without the risks involved in these diseases. Now the breeders have clear or carrier dogs they can go back to whatever lines they like.

Limiting the number of services he was allowed would have seen the 2 problems continue in this country, for many many bitches, without any way forward.

I would disagree with limited services - always.

With Cavs and SM and MVD, if the genes involved are ever discovered (and I don' t think they will be), one or some dogs will need to be used quite a lot at stud to work the way around these problems, I think. Limiting the number of times a dog can be used at stud will retard breeding away from the problems.

You are very correct Jed. The missing bit is each breed has it's own breeding rules. All of what you have said is taken in and is part of the decisions. So for example the plan might be to import some known clear dogs and these dogs would be used more, how much more for how long I have no idea, but the group decides how to best care for their breed. Genetics' and populations experts can be very helpful in building these types of breeding plans when breeds are in real trouble, not all of them want to wipe out purebred dogs. In Northern Europe that is not part of what is going on. Ask me the breeders have been so progressive in their planning, that animal rights radicals don't get the time of day as the breeders have already address all the issues.

\

BTW from what I could gather on the cavs in Sweden, you test at least one parent to be A, the other parent had to be free of symptoms. So that was not very restrictive and sure not the same as saying A to A only. There was a lots of eveidnce they were trying to keep as many dogs as possible in the population. I think we would find most of these breeding plans not really different to what we already do.

Edited November 23, 2010 by shortstep

[Greytmate]

Jed I disagree.

I would rather see stud services limited and breeders importing frozen semen from other clear lines. Especially if A breed is in such bad genetic shape in this country as you describe.

If we had the restriction of stud services, instead of people importing one dog, and studding it out as much as they possibly can (and making a fortune), they might choose to import a shipment of frozen semen containing straws from a few different stud dogs with clear lines (and selling those for a fortune instead).

[shortstep]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

Can the ANKC refuse to sign off on the exportation application so they cannot be sent overseas with their papers?

The breeder marks the box not for excport, then no pedigre will be given for export. This will not stop the dog from being exported but it will not have any registration from ANKC going with it for a transfer.

[shortstep]

Jed I disagree.

I would rather see stud services limited and breeders importing frozen semen from other clear lines. Especially if A breed is in such bad genetic shape in this country as you describe.

If we had the restriction of stud services, instead of people importing one dog, and studding it out as much as they possibly can (and making a fortune), they might choose to import a shipment of frozen semen containing straws from a few different stud dogs with clear lines (and selling those for a fortune instead).

If you go into these more advanced breeding plans, each breed has their own plan developed by the breeders with assitence of experts in genetics and popuation and so forth. There is room for endless flexability, the breeders drive the plan addressing the problems in their breed weith solutions which are ceated just for their breed, but they do get expert help which would be needed to develope these plans. This is in contrast to governement laws which do not allow choice and are not designed by the breeders.

Edited November 23, 2010 by shortstep

[yarracully]

Preventing pups being shipped o/s to a puppy dealer needs to be dealt with by rules enacted by the CCs. Like most other people, I'd like to see it cease, but the CCs need to do it. Maybe with the changes to dogsnsw executives, there is a possibility of changes

Pups not being sold by pet shops needs to be addressed by either govenment or rspca - probably rspca lobbying government - providing the law was properly framed it would not be a restriction of fair trading laws.

Trouble is that federal laws will always override CC rules. So if a CC brings in a rule that you can't sell overseas, those that want to sell entire litters will go over the CC rules and preach restriction of trade. The issue then becomes at what point do you say this can be sold overseas but this can't. No matter where you put the line some will go along with it but others wont.

The alternative is they will simply sell teh pups OS and not notify the CC. Or they will get others to act as dummy buyers to break the litter up and then transfer them individually.

Personally I am against entire litters going OS. But I can't see where you can draw the line without doing away with this trade restriction issue.

[SpikesPuppy]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

Can the ANKC refuse to sign off on the exportation application so they cannot be sent overseas with their papers?

The breeder marks the box not for excport, then no pedigre will be given for export. This will not stop the dog from being exported but it will not have any registration from ANKC going with it for a transfer.

Yep I know the breeder can tick the box but is there any avenue for the CC to refuse to process the export? I have not exported a dog so may be a silly question, sorry, but the CCs obviously process the export certificates as they print them in the gazette?

Okay, if Federal restriction of trade trumps ANKC rules & regs, can the ANKC reprimand someone for exporting an entire litter as they do if someone breeds a bitch under 12 months or more than 2 times in 18 months etc?

[yarracully]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

Can the ANKC refuse to sign off on the exportation application so they cannot be sent overseas with their papers?

May have a bit of an issue being able to justify the rejection of an exportation application. Especially if it were to find its way into the courts. I can't say I have seen any rule which would allow the ANKC to refuse. However if they did I wouldn't be surprised to see those selling the litters will simply stop registering them and therefore stop applying to transfer the litters

The breeder marks the box not for excport, then no pedigre will be given for export. This will not stop the dog from being exported but it will not have any registration from ANKC going with it for a transfer.

Yep I know the breeder can tick the box but is there any avenue for the CC to refuse to process the export? I have not exported a dog so may be a silly question, sorry, but the CCs obviously process the export certificates as they print them in the gazette?

Okay, if Federal restriction of trade trumps ANKC rules & regs, can the ANKC reprimand someone for exporting an entire litter as they do if someone breeds a bitch under 12 months or more than 2 times in 18 months etc?

[Jed]

Jed I disagree.

I would rather see stud services limited and breeders importing frozen semen from other clear lines. Especially if A breed is in such bad genetic shape in this country as you describe.

If we had the restriction of stud services, instead of people importing one dog, and studding it out as much as they possibly can (and making a fortune), they might choose to import a shipment of frozen semen containing straws from a few different stud dogs with clear lines (and selling those for a fortune instead).

It might be all about money in greyhounds, but it is not for most of the other breeders.

I personally wouldn't use frozen semen - I would want to know about the temperament of the dog, and his ability to work naturally.

The dog I mentioned was imported - he just happened to have different bloodlines and be clear of everything, so he was used a lot. And he is very atttractive, I don't know that frozen semen would have had the same effect. I used him, because he is good sort, lovely nature, and healthy + he complemented my bitch.

[Steve]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

Can the ANKC refuse to sign off on the exportation application so they cannot be sent overseas with their papers?

The state CCs make lots and lots of money from export certificates and usually by the time the applications go in for the certificate the puppies are long gone. Puppies are exported at 8 weeks but CC wont issue the certificate until they are 12 weeks. All puppies that go out are under AQIS regs so on what grounds would the CC stop issuing an export certificate? Whats more the new owner can ask for an export certificate anyway - stopping the breeder being issued with them wont get us anywhere. people only need a CC issued export certificate anyway if they intend showing or breeding. Stopping them being issued for pet shop puppies isnt going to make a scrap of difference. No matter what box the breeder ticks you cant stop an owner taking their dogs overseas. History tells us that when the CC even listed the exports each month in NSW they all moved to have export certs done via the ACT.These puppies arent going out with boxes ticked for no export the breeders want them exported . You cant stop that.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

Greytmate

I'm for regulating number of litters a dog can have, regulating how many times a dog can be used at stud, regulating how many people/staff per dog per property

I see the sense in this. However, just to be (as usual) the fly in the ointment. Consider A breed. 2 fatal diseases. DNA tests recently developed. Many of the better dogs are found to be carriers for one disease or another. The choices in stud dogs are limited - if they aren't carriers for one disease, the bitch is. Some dogs are carriers for both. Remember there was no way to identify the problem until the dog developed symptoms.

A new dog is imported. He is clear of everything, so all the carriers can safely be mated to him. He does not have many genes in common with any of the bitches, so he is an outcross which gives breeders and opportunity to breed clear or carrier pups from their lovely, but carrier status bitches.

So he is used very extensively at stud. However, the pups by him can now go on and breed without the risks involved in these diseases. Now the breeders have clear or carrier dogs they can go back to whatever lines they like.

Limiting the number of services he was allowed would have seen the 2 problems continue in this country, for many many bitches, without any way forward.

I would disagree with limited services - always.

With Cavs and SM and MVD, if the genes involved are ever discovered (and I don' t think they will be), one or some dogs will need to be used quite a lot at stud to work the way around these problems, I think. Limiting the number of times a dog can be used at stud will retard breeding away from the problems.

You are very correct Jed. The missing bit is each breed has it's own breeding rules. All of what you have said is taken in and is part of the decisions. So for example the plan might be to import some known clear dogs and these dogs would be used more, how much more for how long I have no idea, but the group decides how to best care for their breed. Genetics' and populations experts can be very helpful in building these types of breeding plans when breeds are in real trouble, not all of them want to wipe out purebred dogs. In Northern Europe that is not part of what is going on. Ask me the breeders have been so progressive in their planning, that animal rights radicals don't get the time of day as the breeders have already address all the issues.

\

BTW from what I could gather on the cavs in Sweden, you test at least one parent to be A, the other parent had to be free of symptoms. So that was not very restrictive and sure not the same as saying A to A only. There was a lots of eveidnce they were trying to keep as many dogs as possible in the population. I think we would find most of these breeding plans not really different to what we already do.

Except they would know what the status was of at least one of the dogs they were using and we dont because most dont scan.

[Steve]

Jed I disagree.

I would rather see stud services limited and breeders importing frozen semen from other clear lines. Especially if A breed is in such bad genetic shape in this country as you describe.

If we had the restriction of stud services, instead of people importing one dog, and studding it out as much as they possibly can (and making a fortune), they might choose to import a shipment of frozen semen containing straws from a few different stud dogs with clear lines (and selling those for a fortune instead).

Why ? You cant ask for this because you cant say what the breeder or breeders would be going after in their breeding program and every breed would have different goals at different times.

[SpikesPuppy]

I think there is already a limit on how many litters a bitch can have - by default at least. I believe if you wish to breed a bitch older than 6, you need to have Vet certification that she is healthy etc.

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

I'm not quite sure WHY the ANKC cannot place restrictions on things like exporting entire litters - it is a voluntary organisation, people are not forced to join. If they don't want to abide by the rules and regulations, they have no place being part of the membership.

Because its the Federal law - restriction of trade.

Can the ANKC refuse to sign off on the exportation application so they cannot be sent overseas with their papers?

The state CCs make lots and lots of money from export certificates and usually by the time the applications go in for the certificate the puppies are long gone. Puppies are exported at 8 weeks but CC wont issue the certificate until they are 12 weeks. All puppies that go out are under AQIS regs so on what grounds would the CC stop issuing an export certificate? Whats more the new owner can ask for an export certificate anyway - stopping the breeder being issued with them wont get us anywhere. people only need a CC issued export certificate anyway if they intend showing or breeding. Stopping them being issued for pet shop puppies isnt going to make a scrap of difference. No matter what box the breeder ticks you cant stop an owner taking their dogs overseas. History tells us that when the CC even listed the exports each month in NSW they all moved to have export certs done via the ACT.These puppies arent going out with boxes ticked for no export the breeders want them exported . You cant stop that.

Thanks for the more detailed answer- like I said, I've not exported before or really thought about it.

Makes you wonder what the point of all our $$$ is if they can't do anything to protect the dogs or even our sport. I can see why people grow disillusioned and drop off the membership whilst still breeding.

Perhaps a higher fee for the processing of the export application?

So it's sounding like there is little the ANKC or state CCs can do regarding restriction of trade but surely they can introduce monetary penalties for those doing the wrong thing? On that note, do they have a process for members found selling to pet stores?

[WreckitWhippet]

Jed I disagree.

I would rather see stud services limited and breeders importing frozen semen from other clear lines. Especially if A breed is in such bad genetic shape in this country as you describe.

If we had the restriction of stud services, instead of people importing one dog, and studding it out as much as they possibly can (and making a fortune), they might choose to import a shipment of frozen semen containing straws from a few different stud dogs with clear lines (and selling those for a fortune instead).

You assume that every breeder will want to use an "import" and that's not the case, not every breeder is blinded by the words " imported xxx " on the paperwork and many tread with caution, assess the whole dog and never go there.

[poodlefan]

Agree with RSG - there's nothing magical about the words "imported" when it comes to quality. Australia leads the way with the quality of dogs in some breeds.

Choosing a sire might mean you actually want to see him for yourself to assess him AND to see some of his progeny before committing. That's not easy to do with frozen semen unless you go O/S yourself.

[raz]

So it's sounding like there is little the ANKC or state CCs can do regarding restriction of trade but surely they can introduce monetary penalties for those doing the wrong thing? On that note, do they have a process for members found selling to pet stores?

As long as they are PIAA accredited, breeders can sell to pet shops and wholesalers. Code of Ethics for dogsnsw

A Member shall not:

(a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited

by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

I dont know what their process is if a breeder is caught selling to non PIAA members

[WreckitWhippet]

So it's sounding like there is little the ANKC or state CCs can do regarding restriction of trade but surely they can introduce monetary penalties for those doing the wrong thing? On that note, do they have a process for members found selling to pet stores?

As long as they are PIAA accredited, breeders can sell to pet shops and wholesalers. Code of Ethics for dogsnsw

A Member shall not:

(a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited

by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

I dont know what their process is if a breeder is caught selling to non PIAA members

I'll take a stab in the dark razzle. You get busted doing it and the CC either ignores the complaint or you can simply make the complaint go away by threatening legal action.