What Would You Do?

[Rascalmyshadow]

TsarsMum no need to apologise, I am also protective over my kids and I am learning to put them above the dogs but it has taken a while. My life has always revolved around dogs whether my own or customers and sometimes it is hard to make the right choices when you are in the middle of a situation.

I want the best for my kids and I certainly don't want the growing up detesting dogs because they caused them to lose their freedom, like a couple of people I know.

Nekhbet you are awsome thanks so much my next free Monday (I seem to be grooming non stop at the moment) is the 6th of December, would that be ok for you? How many peope would be there and we can bring up some nice lunch.

[55chevy]

The reason I don't trust her is because she lunges at kids out in public, I hate to admit but she has snapped at one of my daughters friends and caught her on the face she has also bailed up one of my sons friends in the house, the only reason she didn't bite him is because my son was inbetween.

She is a very reactive dog, it has a lot to do with her genetics.

I have done training with her with a friend who is a delta instructor she suggested the muzzle, one of my other friends is a trainer she suggested the crate.

Modifying her behaviour could be dangerous because she is more reactive when on lead and I don't trust her to have her loose.

I do feel my kids are missing out they have had to work around the dogs their whole lives and it's not fair to now say they can't have friends play over. Anyone with out kids wouldn't understand.

You can fix the reactivity on leash NicoleL, but respectfully I wouldn't hold hope under Delta type training. Perhaps a chat with Nekhbet or Erny here may assist with better plans to rehabilitate the reactive behaviour given you are in Melbourne

Whoops, didn't see Nekhbet's offer before posting..........grab the opportunity with both hands NicoleL

Edited November 21, 2010 by 55chevy

[jesomil]

Call me what you will but if I had a dog like that, I would PTS.

Kids have to come way above dogs and to restrict their friends coming over because of a dog is not fair. This dog has snapped at a childs face before and it is very likely it will happen again. Management is great but there is always the possibility of a mistake especially with children around. It is simply not worth which ever kids face it will be.

Thats great you are going to see Nekh! Hopefully it is a training issue that can be helped.

[dancinbcs]

yup mondays are good for me pick a nice day and you guys are welcome here as long as you need to be :D unfortunately I have children of my own to provide but we can work on a heap of things anyway

I can tell you my own working line is not keen on children either but she wouldnt dare hurt them. I had them climb my fence and pelt her with glass bottles so you can see where it comes from. She can now have small children around her when we're out and about and if she fells nervous she has been taught to focus on me and I move her away I dont expect a dog to sit there and take it, but I expect her NEVER to redirect onto a child.

Nicole I have ferrets and a rabbit so we can work on her prey drive.

Lovely offer Nekhbet. You are probably the one of the best people to deal with this sort of problem.

[55chevy]

It isn't the dog's fault that it has issue, obviously past experience has moulded it to the way it is now; putting it to sleep is sleeping unfair, there are always other avenues.

Life is not fair and other avenues are either risky or unethical.

Children's safety has to be the priority.

Children's safety is important but it was due to mischievious children that this problem came into being. There are other methods that can be adopted. The dog can be isolated when kids are over. Where there is a will, there is always a way! Perhaps boarding the dog overnight for the occasional sleepover or as the OP has stated, restricting it to one part of the backyard. Killing a dog that is loving and affectionate with members of its own family and relatives alike deserves far more than to be destroyed.

That will only work if there is absolutely no chance that an unfamiliar child could accidentally wander into the dog's territory. It would require construction of a special enclosure for the dog, and perhaps changes to house and yard locks.

That would restrict Nicole's children's current lifestyle, as Nicole explained "We live in a little court and the kids have friends in 5 different houses they play with on a daily basis and I am always on edge worrying incase a door gets left open".

Providing exercise for this dog will require special consideration, as well as controlling the environment to avoid the dog becoming anxious about anything in future.

It doesn't matter now why this dog is unhappy around strange children to the point of aggression, or whose fault that was. What is important is that no child is bitten by this dog.

Nicole needs to consider all of the options and what is going to work for her now. Yes, when there is a will there is always a way, but there are huge risks to be considered too.

No dog is bullet proof with strange kids and many child bites occur from dogs that have no history of aggression but too often dog owners are over confident that their dog will never react and relax supervision on a false sence of secuirty. With a reactive dog, you know it most likely will react, you deal with the situation and take responsibility to ensure it doesn't happen. There is more chance of a child being bitten by over confident owners believing their dog is bullet proof than a responsible owner who takes precautions to secure their reactive dog properly IMHO.

[55chevy]

Call me what you will but if I had a dog like that, I would PTS.

Kids have to come way above dogs and to restrict their friends coming over because of a dog is not fair. This dog has snapped at a childs face before and it is very likely it will happen again. Management is great but there is always the possibility of a mistake especially with children around. It is simply not worth which ever kids face it will be.

Thats great you are going to see Nekh! Hopefully it is a training issue that can be helped.

For years we have had dogs that will bite including retired service dogs that are protection trained which have a valid place in todays crime waves that keep the home and family safe. It's a matter of training and management of dogs "like that" amounts to following a different path of responsibility than what normally occurs with freindly docile dogs. In the OP's situation there is a massive rehabilitation process awaiting before anything as dramatic as PTS to be considered just yet.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I know a couple of people have suggested PTS but that would be absolutely devastating for our whole family,especially since she is fine with our own kids and is such a loving girl. If she ever did serious damage to anyone (hopefully that never happens) I would make that choice but at the moment I still feel we have other avenues we can try.

I am well experienced with dogs I work with them every day and have done for the last 15 years so I am by no means taking this lightly and we are not irresponsible with her but I need help to be objective and work out whats right for our situation. I need to make it clear she is not a savage dog with no manners that I can't trust with anyone. My parents and parents in law come around when I'm not at home without a problem, I have had friends I've worked with stop in when I'm not home and come in to collect my equiptment for me without a problem, I even had a dog walker at one stage who she quite happily went off with.

She is quite accepting of the dogs we have fostered but if she met them in public it would be a different scenario.

Her mum died of cancer earlier this year and I think she was 9 and I know that doesn't necessarily mean she will get it but it's made me realise she is getting older and I want her to be able to enjoy the rest of her life with us and be included as many family activites as possible.

[Nekhbet]

6th is fine, just me and whoever you pack into the car come over whenever you like I'll PM you my address.

[Greytmate]

It isn't the dog's fault that it has issue, obviously past experience has moulded it to the way it is now; putting it to sleep is sleeping unfair, there are always other avenues.

Life is not fair and other avenues are either risky or unethical.

Children's safety has to be the priority.

Children's safety is important but it was due to mischievious children that this problem came into being. There are other methods that can be adopted. The dog can be isolated when kids are over. Where there is a will, there is always a way! Perhaps boarding the dog overnight for the occasional sleepover or as the OP has stated, restricting it to one part of the backyard. Killing a dog that is loving and affectionate with members of its own family and relatives alike deserves far more than to be destroyed.

That will only work if there is absolutely no chance that an unfamiliar child could accidentally wander into the dog's territory. It would require construction of a special enclosure for the dog, and perhaps changes to house and yard locks.

That would restrict Nicole's children's current lifestyle, as Nicole explained "We live in a little court and the kids have friends in 5 different houses they play with on a daily basis and I am always on edge worrying incase a door gets left open".

Providing exercise for this dog will require special consideration, as well as controlling the environment to avoid the dog becoming anxious about anything in future.

It doesn't matter now why this dog is unhappy around strange children to the point of aggression, or whose fault that was. What is important is that no child is bitten by this dog.

Nicole needs to consider all of the options and what is going to work for her now. Yes, when there is a will there is always a way, but there are huge risks to be considered too.

No dog is bullet proof with strange kids and many child bites occur from dogs that have no history of aggression but too often dog owners are over confident that their dog will never react and relax supervision on a false sence of secuirty. With a reactive dog, you know it most likely will react, you deal with the situation and take responsibility to ensure it doesn't happen. There is more chance of a child being bitten by over confident owners believing their dog is bullet proof than a responsible owner who takes precautions to secure their reactive dog properly IMHO.

That might be your opinion, but studies have proven that the most reliable indicator that a dog will show aggression is a previous history of aggression .

There is more chance of a child being bitten by a dog that bites children than by a dog that does not.

[55chevy]

I know a couple of people have suggested PTS but that would be absolutely devastating for our whole family,especially since she is fine with our own kids and is such a loving girl. If she ever did serious damage to anyone (hopefully that never happens) I would make that choice but at the moment I still feel we have other avenues we can try.

I am well experienced with dogs I work with them every day and have done for the last 15 years so I am by no means taking this lightly and we are not irresponsible with her but I need help to be objective and work out whats right for our situation. I need to make it clear she is not a savage dog with no manners that I can't trust with anyone. My parents and parents in law come around when I'm not at home without a problem, I have had friends I've worked with stop in when I'm not home and come in to collect my equiptment for me without a problem, I even had a dog walker at one stage who she quite happily went off with.

She is quite accepting of the dogs we have fostered but if she met them in public it would be a different scenario.

Her mum died of cancer earlier this year and I think she was 9 and I know that doesn't necessarily mean she will get it but it's made me realise she is getting older and I want her to be able to enjoy the rest of her life with us and be included as many family activites as possible.

You are doing the right thing NicoleL for what my opinion is worth and a credit to you for speaking up and sharing your dilemma. I am confident that Nekhbet will set you on the right path, she is highly experienced with aggressive behaviour I have heard from all accounts, good luck, your girl will be fine I am sure

[PossumCorner]

I know your pain NicoleL - two of our dogs I wouldn't trust an inch with a child. I think your solution of making part of the car-port a well-fenced secure snug with a good gate is great, and is all you need. When we have visitors it is simple, two dogs get popped out into secure area, and the trustworthy one is allowed to stay inside. It is quick, safe, simple. The dogs know the routine and are comfortable with it, no fuss. A suitable gate-lock is not rocket-science. Sometimes the simple solutions work the best.

All this talk of you must kill your dog if it looks sideways at anyone is plain silly. Even sillier are the suggestions that it is "okay" to deny childrens' visiting and socialisation with their peers (best remembered times of their lives as other have said).

I do hope Nekhbet can help you find a management plan, (one that takes limited use of a hand for part of the new year into account).

The home on acreage could probably end in tears, as acreage usually involves small animals that are pure temptation, whether family pets or neighbours' chickens.

The biggest problem I can see is just the inconvenience of needing to be aware of when children will be or might be on the doorstep, and a quick bit of sleight of dog before they come inside.

[sas]

I'd be getting a Behaviourist other than an 'Delta' one. Sometimes dogs need more than positive training to address aggression.

[Nekhbet]

I am a little dissapointed that someone supposedly qualified as a behaviourist has given options like that. None of those are really passable even as management. Management is not locking the dog away and hoping it doesnt get out and cause trouble, but actually managing the behaviour and instilling safety nets. It's because they wont use correction and behavioural redirection that they are limited to such dangerous options.

[sas]

I am a little dissapointed that someone supposedly qualified as a behaviourist has given options like that. None of those are really passable even as management. Management is not locking the dog away and hoping it doesnt get out and cause trouble, but actually managing the behaviour and instilling safety nets. It's because they wont use correction and behavioural redirection that they are limited to such dangerous options.

x 1

[corvus]

I know of someone with a Chow that is like this with all strange people. Her owner eventually opted to lock her away in a back room when guests came because she felt it was best for the dog. The dog was able to be much calmer when she wasn't directly confronted by strange people in her house. I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing management. If you use the two degrees of separation rule (e.g. crate in a room with closed door), the risk IMO is lower than continually exposing the dog to her trigger while you retrain. If she's more reactive on leash and you live in a small house, it might be difficult to adequately control the environment so that she is not monumentally stressed in the early stages of rehabilitation (and possibly beyond).

But I don't know her or what she can handle or how she might respond to training. You would know what is right for her.