New Problem To Address

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I could hear her relaxing and really enjoying the experience of speaking with me and its that feeling we need to market. I think.

I think you're right on the money.

eta if you think about the average Joe who wants to buy a pup, they dont care about the standard - they just want to hear about the little fluffball who has a good temperament, a nice set of pearly whites, four legs and a tail.

i agree, we need to showcase the pet buyers because they can show that pure bred puppies are great family dogs.

[asal]

well done steve.

bravo.

[raz]

i agree, we need to showcase the pet buyers because they can show that pure bred puppies are great family dogs.

And that comes back to the breeder in that when puppy buyers have a great rapport with their breeder, lots of backup etc, they rave and rave about great breeders, fantastic purebred dogs, all the mushy positives. It's really good fun to talk to people who are thinking of buying a puppy but I can imagine that when someone has a negative experience buying a dog, they're going to focus on crappy stuff.

[jacqui835]

An opinion of someone not in the show world. I have one rescue dog and one purebred from a registered breeder.

Someone else already said this but I think there needs to be more opportunities for the public to see different breeds and meet breeders. I have an Australian Shepherd and no-one I know outside of the dog world has ever heard of them or seen them.

The people I know only know about health problems and other things they "don't like" in the usual breeds from documentaries or word of mouth or even meeting some of these dogs. They always mention pugs and cavaliers. Many mention the modern GSD's back. People say they don't like the look of poodles.

If some of these people actually met some well bred examples of these breeds with no health problems, I think that would help. I get heaps of people asking me for advice about breeds of dog that are right for them but they rarely take it because they go out and meet a "cute" oodle or other crossbreed that is healthy. What if I could say "here are some breeds you might like, and actually, you can go and meet some on x day at x time"? The general public doesn't want to go to dog shows, and often people there don't have the time of day for outsiders. Doggy events that are publicised by the local government, RSPCA, etc. are really well attended in my area, I think that we should make use of these. There were hundreds and hundreds of people at our local Dogs Day Out, there were rescue stalls, obedience demonstrations... but no stalls with friendly people and friendly dogs promoting their breed.

I think that vets can be a very important link as well. Most of the vets I know are happy for people to breed their mutts and lots even promote crossbreeds. The general public trusts vets. Why is it that most vets I've met don't even know what an Australian Shepherd is? Should they be more educated about purebred dogs as well? Our puppy school instructor correctly guessed that one of the pups was a pug x beagle yet looked at my dog with a confused look on her face... "border collie?"

Several people on this thread have commented that physically these days there are few ways to distinguish a border collie from an australian shepherd, there have been whole threads on it.

When I see pugs, they don't have any health problems per se, it's just that I feel terribly angry at whoever bred them deliberately to be the way that they are, because they want to run around and play with the other dogs, but they really can't. Within seconds they are snorting and puffing, and they just have to give up. What a frustrating life. And they need so much extra care on planes etc - I don't understand how you justify doing that to an animal.

I don't like the look of poodles, but poodles don't seem to have been bred to their disadvantage, they are great sporting dogs etc.

I actually think pugs are very cute, but I don't think that is a good enough excuse to justify breeding an animal to its detriment.

Same for shepherds with curvey backs, but you see both these days, and I love the police ones - they look fantastic and capable.

The problem is the majority of pet owners feel that breeders breed purely for looks, and although people here will jump up and down because they worry about breeding dilutes given the link to skin conditions, they seem fine with breeding for features that are also linked to much more serious conditions - curvey tails and what not.

[raz]

When I see pugs, they don't have any health problems per se, it's just that I feel terribly angry at whoever bred them deliberately to be the way that they are, because they want to run around and play with the other dogs, but they really can't. Within seconds they are snorting and puffing, and they just have to give up. What a frustrating life. And they need so much extra care on planes etc - I don't understand how you justify doing that to an animal.

it's not really the point of this thread but I see where you're going with this. I agree - a lot of pet buyers think breeders are just breeding for that best in show ribbon. We dont actually care how many wins you have with each dog - we just want a healthy and happy puppy who is going to fit in with our family, enjoy drives in the car, romps at the beach etc.

[asal]

you raised a good point,

what really frustrates me is the assumption that for example blue gene alopecia for example = skin allergies, automatically?

alopecia means...............hairless

every man who has gone bald has..................... alopecia

i have had three dogs with blue gene alopecia. none, not one, of them, ever developed any allergies whatsoever. they were long coat dogs with short soft coat along their back and speed stripe down the top of the tail. gee they clip bedlington terriors because nature doesnt get the top short enough, still feathered underneath the tail. they may not be able to be shown, but health wise, fine healty doggies. the stringy incident proved that totaly beyond doubt for example even if it cost me bulk monetary and emotional wise.

allergy is a different ball game.

Edited November 21, 2010 by asal

[Steve]

O.K. I know it had to happen and its as good as here as anywhere.

Ive no doubt that what Im about to say is going to get me in the poo.

The reality is that some breeds of dogs have less quality of life than other dogs - in regard to the ability to cater to the natual instincts of the dog as a species.

Its one thing to have a dog which doesnt play much with other dogs because it prefers not to because of how its temperament has evolved and quite another to have a dog which can't behave like a dog is normally expected to behave based on what other dogs normally choose to do because of the way it has been bred to look.

Around about now we also have to take into account realities and not just what people think the dog would like to do.

So the question becomes if a pug had every other gene the same as a pug except the way it looked would the pug choose to be more active ? Are they less active because they are temperamentally less inclined to action or are they less active because they are physically unable to cope with activity? Lots of dogs chase a ball but a Maremma will tell you to go get it yourself - that has nothing what ever to do with its mouth, or body - temperamentally there is no instinct or desire to chase or retrieve that ball. If it had a brachy head someone would be telling me about the poor dog because it cant catch a ball. Obviously when we have medical evidence the dog suffers because its structure doesnt allow it breath naturally whether it chooses to run around the block or not and registered purebred breeders are the ones breeding them thats a whole new ball game and one that its time we addressed - not as easy as it sounds but we can do it.

If its O.K. with everyone this is a whole new topic and one Ive been putting off until we work through some other issues but we have every intention of addressing it - in a way you dont normally expect breeders to go about it.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Steve

[Kaz]

Would be interested in that topic, Steve, as breeding physical extremes to the detriment of the health of a dog is my major issue with pure breds. Being a pet owner, not a breeder, I would be interested in hearing the opinions of breeders on this topic.

[raz]

Would be interested in that topic, Steve, as breeding physical extremes to the detriment of the health of a dog is my major issue with pure breds.

I'd be interested as well. Just on the pug issue though - is it because they're so food fixated that pug owners overfeed them? My pug is skinny and runs rings around my terriers. She's exhausting just to watch her but getting back on topic - her breeder gives me lifetime support and that's what I rave about when I talk to someone thinking of buying a purebred puppy. It's like when you find a really good vet - you talk and talk about them to other pet owners. As a pet owner this is what impresses me

a happy dog who fits in with my family

a breeder who will let me ring up and say Fluffy did something really funny today and I thought you'd like to hear about it, or Fluffy broke his toe and I need you to listen to me cry without making me feel like an ass

Really basic stuff but when you get that from your breeder, you jump up and down and tell the world.

eta and bad news travels faster than good news so if breeders dont do the basics for their puppy owners, you can be sure they'll talk about it

Edited November 21, 2010 by raz

[asal]

Would be interested in that topic, Steve, as breeding physical extremes to the detriment of the health of a dog is my major issue with pure breds. Being a pet owner, not a breeder, I would be interested in hearing the opinions of breeders on this topic.

i know for example the apple dome so loved by chi breeders is certainly a lot bigger apple than ever on the original dogs and been increased over the decades along with the molera, and as a result a percentage of puppies never make it to even their first vaccinations. although in that case its never an issue for a puppy buyer because they simply dont survive. but i know id love it gone from the breed so i dont have to see a puppy born with no skull. no molera in the parents is first on my wish list. moderation in all, to me is good, muzzle not too short, dome medium not extreme. trouble is that makes u open to being branded as not breeding to show win and by default......get the drift

Edited November 21, 2010 by asal

[raz]

i know for example the apple dome so loved by chi breeders is certainly a lot bigger apple than ever on the original dogs and been increased over the decades along with the molera, and as a result a percentage of puppies never make it to even their first vaccinations. although in that case its never an issue for a puppy buyer because they simply dont survive. but i know id love it gone from the breed so i dont have to see a puppy born with no skull. no molera in the parents is first on my wish list. moderation in all, to me is good, muzzle not too short, dome medium not extreme. trouble is that makes u open to being branded as not breeding to show win and by default......get the drift

And that's the sort of crap that your average puppy buyer doesnt want to be bogged down by. We dont care. Just sell us a nice puppy and keep all of that infighting to yourselves. Fight amongst yourselves about health testing etc - the average Joe on the street doesnt want to buy into that. We want a puppy and a nice, rational breeder. Nothing else. We dont want your first born child, a lifetime guarantee against a possible health problem, title deeds to your house. Keep it simple.

[Steve]

Would be interested in that topic, Steve, as breeding physical extremes to the detriment of the health of a dog is my major issue with pure breds. Being a pet owner, not a breeder, I would be interested in hearing the opinions of breeders on this topic.

i know for example the apple dome so loved by chi breeders is certainly a lot bigger apple than ever on the original dogs and been increased over the decades along with the molera, and as a result a percentage of puppies never make it to even their first vaccinations. although in that case its never an issue for a puppy buyer because they simply dont survive. but i know id love it gone from the breed so i dont have to see a puppy born with no skull. no molera in the parents is first on my wish list. moderation in all, to me is good, muzzle not too short, dome medium not extreme. trouble is that makes u open to being branded as not breeding to show win and by default......get the drift

Hold that thought Asal - its important we look at that in the thread on these issues.

[asal]

i know for example the apple dome so loved by chi breeders is certainly a lot bigger apple than ever on the original dogs and been increased over the decades along with the molera, and as a result a percentage of puppies never make it to even their first vaccinations. although in that case its never an issue for a puppy buyer because they simply dont survive. but i know id love it gone from the breed so i dont have to see a puppy born with no skull. no molera in the parents is first on my wish list. moderation in all, to me is good, muzzle not too short, dome medium not extreme. trouble is that makes u open to being branded as not breeding to show win and by default......get the drift

And that's the sort of crap that your average puppy buyer doesnt want to be bogged down by. We dont care. Just sell us a nice puppy and keep all of that infighting to yourselves. Fight amongst yourselves about health testing etc - the average Joe on the street doesnt want to buy into that. We want a puppy and a nice, rational breeder. Nothing else. We dont want your first born child, a lifetime guarantee against a possible health problem, title deeds to your house. Keep it simple.

and that is exactly why ive sat on my hands for 30 years, no one wants to know or talk about it. i looked, i saw, i decided which road i would walk. trouble is with the dog world, the ethicals notice, your not walking to their drum nor can stand by and let you go your own way , and to them its the my way or the highway. thats why the stringy incident happened anyway despite keeping my reasons to myself.

the dust is still under the carpet

Edited November 21, 2010 by asal

[pebbles]

Just a thought and probably a useless one at that - What about a full scale assault on our State Bods. detailing all the concerns and giving suggestions - emails, letters. deputations to Committee meetings, request a meeting for discussions, etc. Most likely will be ignored but then there's no come-back from them saying they should have been informed and they may acknowledge there are problems. Maybe, just maybe, they might see sense and campaigns from recognised organisations will surely hold weight.

Ok that's my threepence worth.

[Crisovar]

i know for example the apple dome so loved by chi breeders is certainly a lot bigger apple than ever on the original dogs and been increased over the decades along with the molera, and as a result a percentage of puppies never make it to even their first vaccinations. although in that case its never an issue for a puppy buyer because they simply dont survive. but i know id love it gone from the breed so i dont have to see a puppy born with no skull. no molera in the parents is first on my wish list. moderation in all, to me is good, muzzle not too short, dome medium not extreme. trouble is that makes u open to being branded as not breeding to show win and by default......get the drift

And that's the sort of crap that your average puppy buyer doesnt want to be bogged down by. We dont care. Just sell us a nice puppy and keep all of that infighting to yourselves. Fight amongst yourselves about health testing etc - the average Joe on the street doesnt want to buy into that. We want a puppy and a nice, rational breeder. Nothing else. We dont want your first born child, a lifetime guarantee against a possible health problem, title deeds to your house. Keep it simple.

The thing is though some certainly do care and they appear to be in the majority, expectations seem to be higher and often unrealistic, is this a public perception of dogs or just the way the public is heading with everything. Has the way the public sees buying a dog really changed because of the way dogs and breeders are or just because we are now such a demanding and consumer driven society.

[raz]

and that is exactly why ive sat on my hands for 30 years, no one wants to know or talk about it.

the dust is still under the carpet

Look I totally understand but I'm trying to look at this from the perspective of your everyday chap who just wants to buy a dog. All of that technical stuff, personality conflicts, dog world politics just goes whoosh. We just want a puppy and when we get a great puppy and a super cool breeder, we talk about it. We puppy owners promote you breeders. If you talk ad nauseum about all the other stuff, we glaze over.

I know that's pretty abrupt and I dont mean to be rude, but you guys need to use us (the puppy buyers) to be ambassadors for purebreeds, and the only way to do that is to be really lovely mentors - which I know you all are because my breeders have been super nice people that make me proud to be part of the purebreed world, but so often you hear the same stuff about breeders being snobs. We've all seen it. someone rocks up to a show because we all say - go to a show before you buy a dog - and they walk away dumbfounded because someone told them off for calling a 'girl' rather than a 'bitch'. (yes I actually watched that happening. It was pretty bloody disgraceful and the person involved went and bought a mongrel from a puppy farm as a result)

[Steve]

Just a thought and probably a useless one at that - What about a full scale assault on our State Bods. detailing all the concerns and giving suggestions - emails, letters. deputations to Committee meetings, request a meeting for discussions, etc. Most likely will be ignored but then there's no come-back from them saying they should have been informed and they may acknowledge there are problems. Maybe, just maybe, they might see sense and campaigns from recognised organisations will surely hold weight.

Ok that's my threepence worth.

There is much work being done in that area pebbles and I dont think it will be ignored. The most difficult and frustrating thing to get around is that basically the system is set up to keep you shut up and make it hard to get past go. Its been a steep learning curve to try to find the protocols and procedures of how to present what you have and bring it to attention. Even just putting a petition together to comply with the crap they have in place so that when you get it to where its has to go - after you work out where it has to go - makes you go . My whole life I thought if people felt strongly about something they could canvas others, get up a petition, show their local member and then he would know his constituents had a pain and as our elected rep he would do something about it or at least listen to you. Not that easy Im afraid. There is much going on behind the scenes and its not all in anti purebred favour - we are making friends too .So your threepence worth is most definitly is part of the way to go.

[Greytmate]

I think people are mixing two messages.

Yes, we want people to get the message that purebreed dogs are dogs that will meet their needs as pets. (rather than being showdogs or whatever)

That does nothing to address the question "How do we counteract the bad press for purebred dogs?"

"Bad press" can be counteracted by listening to what the "bad press" is, and specifically answering those concerns. Not by blindly promoting the dogs as pets.

For me, the main difficulty is to have everyone working for the same goal. It cannot be said that concerns about purebreed dogs are being addressed when many of the people breeding them will not admit there is a problem, or accept any scientific evidence put forward.

Which ever body that "we" is that is going to try to counteract the "bad press" may be have to be willing to compromise on some things, or make changes. Risk being really unpopular in some circles. And able to come up with sound plans to show a proactive approach to avoid future problems. There may be some truth in all the "bad press", to ignore it is dangerous.

[raz]

"Bad press" can be counteracted by listening to what the "bad press" is, and specifically answering those concerns. Not by blindly promoting the dogs as pets.

Joe Blow doesnt want the ins and outs of how it's being dealt with. Look at the thread in news subforum. Do you think Mr Plod who wants to buy a puppy for his daughter wants to waft through all of that crap and infighting? Not really. He just wants to buy a puppy, and when he's happy with puppy and supernice breeder who doesnt talk scientific shit about genetics and health tests and ...I'm already going to sleep, he'll tell lots of people about his gorgeous little purebred dog and wonderful breeder who giggles when his daughter sends breeder email piccies of the dog.

I think it was Jaxx who said - go back to basics and start with the puppy buyers. We spread the word about you guys.

[Greytmate]

"Bad press" can be counteracted by listening to what the "bad press" is, and specifically answering those concerns. Not by blindly promoting the dogs as pets.

Joe Blow doesnt want the ins and outs of how it's being dealt with. Look at the thread in news subforum. Do you think Mr Plod who wants to buy a puppy for his daughter wants to waft through all of that crap and infighting? Not really. He just wants to buy a puppy, and when he's happy with puppy and supernice breeder who doesnt talk scientific shit about genetics and health tests and ...I'm already going to sleep, he'll tell lots of people about his gorgeous little purebred dog and wonderful breeder who giggles when his daughter sends breeder email piccies of the dog.

I think it was Jaxx who said - go back to basics and start with the puppy buyers. We spread the word about you guys.

Joe Blow isn't giving us bad press.

We have to address Bad Press.

We have to address Joe Blow.

Attempting to address them both in the one message will just confuse Joe, and disrespect BP.