New Problem To Address

[shortstep]

I kept this breed for 20 years,not as a breeder but as a working dog.

Can I ask what breed and what work?

[moosmum]

Can I do that on here,or should I pm?

Forget that,I'll P.M as I don't need any crap.

Edited November 20, 2010 by moosmum

[Steve]

This is a very hard issue to solve. There are alot of public people with strong opinions on breeders often fueled by that horrible tv show. Ive had friends tell me that they deliberately bought a dog which is 'purebred' from a non- registered breeder to avoid unreputable breeders (what a joke)!

I think purebred dogs need some publicity on the positives, the good things breeders do and an expose on puppy mills and pet shops.

We need more events with purebred dog open to the public where people can meet the dogs and people. Also there needs to be more encouragement of newbies in the hobby.

All of this is hard to do but i think we need to do it.

Mdba is doing a good job so far but i think you guys need some more publicity so that people (not in the dog world) learn about you etc

We need more members - members equal votes.

Well then we need to make things more attractive to people who buy dogs on LR. They have a door slammed in their faces if they even show the remotest interest in becomming a breeder or wanting a dog to Show. Everone runs around in circles yelling BYB, or Puppy Miller at the first inquiry!! No wonder membership has dropped.

Sorry I didnt mean CC members I meant MDBA members.

[Jed]

Hi Shortstep, yep I saw that thanks, by McGreevey. Although he stated the olefactory centre was removed, he failed to illustrate how he could prove it had moved, which I was remarking on. Although I may have missed it.

Edited to say - I try not to read McGreevey, life can only be depressing to a certain level

Ditto and why I am having problems answering you...LOL

um yes, well maybe too simplistic on my part but wolves brains are like dogs with long noses brains. There is no pug face in wild dogs?? so 1 + 1 = the change ???

here is a bit of what he says, enjoy lol

But how could skull shortening affect cerebral organization? Studies of human craniosynostosis [22], [23] and immature head banding [23] suggest that the development of brain shape and size is closely interrelated to the configuration of dura matter as well as the co-developing cranial vault. Changes to any of one of these factors can lead to changes in the others [22]. Differences in canine skull length resulting from artificial human selection pressures may have led to alterations in cerebral development most evident in brachycephalic versus dolicocephalic dogs. Specifically, rostral intracranial volumetric restriction during development of short-skulled dogs may explain the combination of axis rotation and olfactory bulb repositioning. Regodon et al (1993) also noted that reduced skull length in brachycephalic dogs gives rise to a more perpendicular development of the cranium relative to the facial axis [5]. These anatomical adaptations could hence represent a biological solution to a ‘space problem’. The olfactory bulb seems to have migrated to a potential space ventral to the orbital frontal cortex, thereby freeing the anterior pole for normal development of the frontal cortex. Alternatively, animals at the dolichocephalic end of the spectrum may have sufficient ‘spare capacity’ in the cranial vault to permit olfactory bulb development almost directly anterior to the frontal lobe. Either of these possible explanations relies on an evolutionary and developmental preference to preserve frontal lobe volume. Future studies could therefore directly compare frontal lobe morphology in brachy- and dolichocephalic dogs.

Gee thanks, you sure are a pal. Even after wolves, where are the MRI supporting his writings? Did the Empress Ming Li in the 5th century allow the pekinese to be MRI'd?

The problem with this particular fairy story is that instead of "are" and "proof" and scientific studies - we have instead adverbs such as ......

"suggest,

can lead to,

may have led,

may explain,

also noted,

could hence represent,

may have,

these possible explanations,

could therefore"

And absolutely no hard evidence of anything.

I actually think Harry Potter is more likely to be valid and truthful (and relevant)

so really, it is only a bit of supposition, based on nothing whatsoever. Yet people believe it is a scientific study.

Unfortunately, Mita, although all the studies are there, backed by anecdotal evidence the public hasn't seen them and wouldn't believe them.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Jed

[shortstep]

Some level-headed thinking about welfare issues & purebred dog breeding come out of Scandanavia (they seem less prone to hysteria than the UK).

Neat paper prepared by the Norwegian Kennel Club & the Clinical Sciences section of the Norwegian Vet School.

http://www.actavetscand.com/content/50/S1/S6

(I just patted my tibbie girl on the head, she came from Scandanavia & her dad was a Norwegian Champion! )

Well I brought up the Finnland or was it Sweden, breeding plan for SM in cavs the other day. It said to breed atleast one A dog in every breeding and to not breed dogs with clincial symptoms (was ok to breed b c d to an A for example), that went over like a lead baloon, Bet wanted only A to A litters. Explaining what throwing out that number of the population would do to the breed did not matter.

But you are right and I often go to these 3 contries to look up breed disease stats and to see what they are doing and how it is working. I actually have not see much if any reduction in most of the complexs disease rate like HD ED epi and on the list goes, but the simple diseases are really controlled well even those with out DNA tests.

I am pretty sure that McGreevy has something else in mind for us however.

Edited November 20, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Gee thanks, you sure are a pal.

LOL sorry that was no way to treat a freind.

[mita]

Unfortunately, Mita, although all the studies are there, backed by anecdotal evidence.

The public doesn't believe them.

The public doesn't get told. There's no coordinated public relations efforts on behalf of purebred dogs.

It's skilled PR that's catapaulted rescue dogs into the public consciousness.

[Steve]

What breeders need is a voice, a face.

A person out there in the media, oosing with charisma getting the word out there about pedigree dogs.

There's the Burke , Dr Harry and That Bondi dude.

But who is out there for the breeders?

Well that begs the question - why arent the breeders out there for the breeders. How long do they have to wait before they work out that their CCs are not going to do it for them and do something ?

Some breeders are good at breeding. Some breeders are bad at breeding but good at marketing.

Who is waiting for who? Are they waiting for themselves?

You have done something Steve, you have taken the first step that needed to be taken. You formed the MDBA.

I feel its a bit pointless to be having a discussion about 'us' and 'them' and 'we' and 'they'. We need to define those people.

And let's define a brand before we even think about approaching people to endorse it.

Thank you I think we did the right thing too. Up until now Ive tried to stay a bit away from how to promote the dogs - simply because we set up to promote the breeders. We felt there were the state CCs and breeds clubs to promote and decide what was best for the breeds and we intended to stay out of that area. We havent promoted the show ring and we have concentrated more on our breeders getting health and temperament right before they consider the dog's potential as a show dog.

personally I think people have to leave their egos at the door and discuss honestly what is best to stop dogs suffering because nothing else matters.

It feels bad to consider that the right to breed dogs the way we want may be taken from us but if it truly does mean that less dogs will suffer because of it so be it.

Im not convinced that some of the things being presented as things we as breeders need to do are in fact the best things for the dogs and that less and not more dogs will suffer if they are introduced.

I think that some of the answer is sitting with our ability to show what breeders can and do cover now that they never did before.That we are eager to embrace the science and breeding protocol recommendations ,that we are prepared to open stud books if its a valid reason, that in breeding is used as a very effective tool by all species purebred breeders and a whole heap more.

The reality is that the year 2010 should be one of excitement for breeders - we should be using the tools at our disposal and learning what we need to know to produce puppies which get healthier each generation. we should be able to wear our prefixes with pride and strutt our stuff to the pet buying public as if we are a designer brand rather than listen to this gloom and doom stuff and scare people away from having a go at the most rewarding pastime they could imagine.

If any of you are ready to give up and not stand and state your case and participate even in a discussion which may take us somewhere in trying to do what is best for our breeds - Im not.

[Sheridan]

What breeders need is a voice, a face.

A person out there in the media, oosing with charisma getting the word out there about pedigree dogs.

There's the Burke , Dr Harry and That Bondi dude.

But who is out there for the breeders?

Well that begs the question - why arent the breeders out there for the breeders. How long do they have to wait before they work out that their CCs are not going to do it for them and do something ?

I find this completely ironic. Not that long ago, there were a number of DOLers who wanted to do something for purebreds - promotions at shows, brochures, etc - and it died a death because the majority of breeders on this forum dismissed it as unnecessary.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Unfortunately, Mita, although all the studies are there, backed by anecdotal evidence.

The public doesn't believe them.

The public doesn't get told. There's no coordinated public relations efforts on behalf of purebred dogs.

It's skilled PR that's catapaulted rescue dogs into the public consciousness.

totally agree with this

[mita]

Well I brought up the Finnland or was it Sweden, breeding plan for SM in cavs the other day. It said to breed atleast one A dog in every breeding and to not breed dogs with clincial symptoms (was ok to breed b c d to an A for example), that went over like a lead baloon, Bet wanted only A to A litters. Explaining what throwing out that number of the population would do to the breed did not matter.

But you are right and I often go to these 3 contries to look up breed disease stats and to see what they are doing and how it is working. I actually have not see much if any reduction in most of the complexs disease rate like HD ED epi and on the list goes, but the simple diseases are really controlled well even those with out DNA tests.

Yep, shortstep. Seems to be less hysteria in Norway, Sweden & Finland (my Annie's dad was Ch in all 3 She came from Sweden & is a brilliant example of her breed )

Scandanavians get down & do it....& evaluate when something is not working. They try to be evidence-based in their breeding policies, but also greatly respect experience.

Also some sensible studies come from Denmark. I love the one where a bunch of pure breeds were found to come out tops in the longevity stakes.

And one of those breeds was one that can set hysteria going among the purebreds exposed lobby. Dachshunds!

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

What breeders need is a voice, a face.

A person out there in the media, oosing with charisma getting the word out there about pedigree dogs.

There's the Burke , Dr Harry and That Bondi dude.

But who is out there for the breeders?

Well that begs the question - why arent the breeders out there for the breeders. How long do they have to wait before they work out that their CCs are not going to do it for them and do something ?

I find this completely ironic. Not that long ago, there were a number of DOLers who wanted to do something for purebreds - promotions at shows, brochures, etc - and it died a death because the majority of breeders on this forum dismissed it as unnecessary.

yes i get quite confused as there are a few double standards/mixed messages from breeders

[Jed]

Unfortunately, Mita, although all the studies are there, backed by anecdotal evidence.

The public doesn't believe them.

The public doesn't get told. There's no coordinated public relations efforts on behalf of purebred dogs.

It's skilled PR that's catapaulted rescue dogs into the public consciousness.

You are correct. Problem is, when they ARE told, they don't believe it.

Read what Shortstep wrote on SM in cavs. Excellent studies were presented to the forum, and the recommended protocol, which most breeders are using. Yet some on the forum were prepared to believe the opinion of a forum member in preference. Not a scientifically tested protocol, an OPINION by someone who is not a breeder, and which opinion will lead to the demise of these dogs - and is against the recommended protocol as well.

Breeders who don't believe it will ever happen couldn't be bothered with promotion. Those (like me) who think it is all over red rover - and that is a hell of a lot of breeders - are winding down, as I said before. They will continue to wind down.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Unfortunately, Mita, although all the studies are there, backed by anecdotal evidence.

The public doesn't believe them.

The public doesn't get told. There's no coordinated public relations efforts on behalf of purebred dogs.

It's skilled PR that's catapaulted rescue dogs into the public consciousness.

You are correct. Problem is, when they ARE told, they don't believe it.

Read what Shortstep wrote on SM in cavs. Excellent studies were presented to the forum, and the recommended protocol, which most breeders are using. Yet some on the forum were prepared to believe the opinion of a forum member in preference. Not a scientifically tested protocol, an OPINION by someone who is not a breeder, and which opinion will lead to the demise of these dogs - and is against the recommended protocol as well.

Breeders who don't believe it will ever happen couldn't be bothered with promotion. Those (like me) who think it is all over red rover - and that is a hell of a lot of breeders - are winding down, as I said before. They will continue to wind down.

i dont actually think thats what happened in that thread. the breeders became quite arrogant and sarcastic.

just because we are not breeders doesnt mean we have zero grey matter between our ears.

you will never get broad support until there is no us and them attitudes

[mita]

Sorry, Jed. We got our wires crossed. I was talking about the general public needing some PR directed to them re purebred dogs.

I take your point about the particular forum member.

[Jed]

Sorry, Jed. We got our wires crossed. I was talking about the general public needing some PR directed to them re purebred dogs.

I take your point about the particular forum member.

Sorry Mita, difficult to be specific sometimes. I know what you meant. However, my experience is that when people are told, they do not believe. I don't understand it. You and shortstep put up those links, or copy and paste - no one seems interested. Yet they fully believe PDE, guess it is the power of the TV.

Yes purebreds do need promotion, and proper promotion on a regular basis. I'd like to think it might happen.

Jaxxs Buddy, you may have found the truth "arrogant" - but the person Mita refers to is known on forums worldwide we are all on and I am not allowing someone to misquote what I said so that I appear dodgy when I am not, and leave it unchallenged.

Fact is, no one knows what causes SM, no one knows how to breed away from it, all people are doing is the best they can according to the recommended protocol, not breeding A to A because that's the way to the end, as the forum member well knows.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Jed

[moosmum]

Unfortunately, Mita, although all the studies are there, backed by anecdotal evidence.

The public doesn't believe them.

The public doesn't get told. There's no coordinated public relations efforts on behalf of purebred dogs.

It's skilled PR that's catapaulted rescue dogs into the public consciousness.

You are correct. Problem is, when they ARE told, they don't believe it.

Read what Shortstep wrote on SM in cavs. Excellent studies were presented to the forum, and the recommended protocol, which most breeders are using. Yet some on the forum were prepared to believe the opinion of a forum member in preference. Not a scientifically tested protocol, an OPINION by someone who is not a breeder, and which opinion will lead to the demise of these dogs - and is against the recommended protocol as well.

Breeders who don't believe it will ever happen couldn't be bothered with promotion. Those (like me) who think it is all over red rover - and that is a hell of a lot of breeders - are winding down, as I said before. They will continue to wind down.

And that will be an awful shame.

I don't think its too late,but getting the right voices to be heard is a problem.I think Steves earlier post is great.A fighting spirit could still do so much.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Sorry, Jed. We got our wires crossed. I was talking about the general public needing some PR directed to them re purebred dogs.

I take your point about the particular forum member.

Sorry Mita, difficult to be specific sometimes. I know what you meant. However, my experience is that when people are told, they do not believe. I don't understand it. You and shortstep put up those links, or copy and paste - no one seems interested. Yet they fully believe PDE, guess it is the power of the TV.

Yes purebreds do need promotion, and proper promotion on a regular basis. I'd like to think it might happen.

Jaxxs Buddy, you may have found the truth "arrogant" - but the person Mita refers to is known on forums worldwide we are all on and I am not allowing someone to misquote what I said so that I appear dodgy when I am not, and leave it unchallenged.

Fact is, no one knows what causes SM, no one knows how to breed away from it, all people are doing is the best they can according to the recommended protocol, not breeding A to A because that's the way to the end, as the forum member well knows.

Jed I can assure you i do not find the truth arrogant, arrogance belongs to humans

however, i am astounded that breeders seem to think they can do everything on their own without paying any attention to pet owners who buy their puppies.

well in my experience people tend to need allies and the only way that happens is through mutual respect and understanding of each other opinions, whether we agree with them or not

[mita]

Fact is, no one knows what causes SM, no one knows how to breed away from it, all people are doing is the best they can according to the recommended protocol, not breeding A to A because that's the way to the end, as the forum member well knows.

Yes. Exactly the same thing applies to many human conditions.

There's far, far less than 100% knowledge about nature, prevention & cure of all conditions in humans. So why has this expectation grown up that it's somehow negligent & irresponsible that conditions occur in dogs, to which there is no current easy answer??? Except winging it with protocols that do the best in the circumstances.

All the pedigree dogs exposed stuff, never addressed that.

Edited November 20, 2010 by mita

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Fact is, no one knows what causes SM, no one knows how to breed away from it, all people are doing is the best they can according to the recommended protocol, not breeding A to A because that's the way to the end, as the forum member well knows.

Yes. Exactly the same thing applies to many human conditions.

There's far, far less than 100% knowledge about nature, prevention & cure of all conditions in humans. So why has this expectation grown up that it's somehow negligent & irresponsible that conditions occur in dogs, to which there is no current easy answer??? Except winging it with protocols that do the best in the circumstances.

All the pedigree dogs exposed stuff, never addressed that.

so just to be clear, what is the recommended protocol?