New Problem To Address

[Steve]

You see as with anything that becomes mandatory or legislated people just wont do what they are being told they have to do.

Some expert said we were not to breed our dogs on every heat season - even though canine reproductive specialists dont agree so when they register their litters they ring in some girls .You then use the sisters papers [ who doesnt exist] and register the pups in her name - same genetics because they would be sisters. The Canine Coucils know this and thats why their breeder accreditaion scheme - not compulsory demands chip numbers on the pedigree. That will stop them breeding every season - right? Nup. find a chip implanter or get the creentials yourself and dummy up the chip numbers too. Or hang on to a pu until its old enough to be chipped and bump it off.

Some expert said we shouldnt in breed - no mother son brother sister etc matings - do you really think that will stop them? Dogs are horny - jump fences and have sex all the time - oops, or you just call the sire another dog you happen to have papers for .

Only breed dogs with a low score - score your dogs and breed em anyway just dont use the papers for the dog that has the higher score but dont breed her she's butt ugly.

Breeders buy puppies from BYB dogs and put their paper work on them, breeders sell rego papers for dead dogs or dogs that never existed.

It degrades the integrity of the pedigree and in fact takes away the only reason I breed registered puppies. Guidelining it , regulating it or making it illegal doesnt mean any one is going to take a scrap of notice. All of this is already against the law because its fraud.

But making it illegal to breed a brachy head would stitch the breed up pretty quick smart.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

well i think some breeders dont help the bad PR situation. used to be getting a puppy from a registered breeder was enough but now some registered breeders are woeful.

maybe we need to start being honest about the issues with certain breeds and breeders need to be seen to address the issues.

Yes I agree with this

I can remember some years ago having a conversation with the owner of a med/small breed about HD. I was doing a lot of work in this area in my dogs. The affected rate in my breed was about 1 in 8-10. I am proud to day that my rate is currently 1 in 40 in 4 generations.

Anyway they were suggesting that that I only breed 0-0 dogs and a few other things which were not things I was doing. It then came to light that this persons breed had a higher affected rate than my breed however they did not do any screening. I never made a point about it. Not my breed not my dogs. This was their choice and I am sure that this person who felt it was not needed knew what was important in their breed. This was truly their ground not mine and I support their decision both privately and publically to decide what health tests to do on their dogs. I would hope for the same from others, but this no longer happens.

As I said above, there will always be some breeders, maybe even most of the breeders in a breed, that do not do what you think they should be doing. So now what? Do we decide for them? I think the answer has already been made by the 'us', the 'public', even if it is not our breed, and even if we are not experts in genetics and even if we are in different country and even if we have respected the breeders for many years.

It is no longer their decision, the decisions now belongs to the world. The best I can see happening is the decisions gets taken away from the world of public opinion and given to some experts. I do not think that the experts will decide that differently from what the breeders are doing in most cases. We shall see.

However I hope that people do understand what they are asking for. There will not be any more pug faced breeds, no breeds with curly tails, no breeds that are dwarfs, the list goes on. As the old saying goes, 'Be vary careful what you wish for, you just might get it'. These things will be changed, they have made this very clear.

So what brought about the change, I am tired of trying to prevent wishes from coming true.

i hear you ss, i have a boston and if it was up to some people they wouldn't be around and i have just found the boston to be the dog of my dreams.

i think some breeders will go their own foolish way and that will be bad for pure bred dogs because the public always remember the horror stories.

[Steve]

And I can understand why someone who doesnt breed purebred dogs would think that wanting to fight having a governing body setting guidelines - because if thats all they are - guidelines no one will follow them anyway if they dont want to. My concerns are who will determine who is an expert and independent person to particpate in this and when the guidlines turn into laws and not guidelines .

As soon as you say that because I don't breed dogs that I would think a certain way about your 'fight', you are dismissing my concerns.

When I say guidelines, I am talking about standards or parameters that can be built into legislation.

thats not true Im not dismissing your concerns Im saying there are somethings which we have cncerns about that YOU are dismissing

[shortstep]

i hear you ss, i have a boston and if it was up to some people they wouldn't be around and i have just found the boston to be the dog of my dreams.

i think some breeders will go their own foolish way and that will be bad for pure bred dogs because the public always remember the horror stories.

Just interested were the parents tested for SM. Have been doing some reading and seems the Boston's get this disease too and they think the rate could be getting up there and that testing should be done. Don't forget the spinal deformaties related to the twisted tail, (had a friend with 2 bostons that has this problem, it was so sad) need to make sure the breeder has done spinal xrays on both parents and hopefully the grandparnts too not sure how early you can screen the pup for this.

Of course none of screening the breeders do will stop them from being banned eventually, they are doing lot of research on pug faced breeds and just the deformed skull shape (did you se the study where the olfactory center has moved to a different place in the brain!) and the dwarfism will be enough to do them in. So make hay while you can!

Yes we all have opinions about who the fools really are.

Edited November 20, 2010 by shortstep

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i hear you ss, i have a boston and if it was up to some people they wouldn't be around and i have just found the boston to be the dog of my dreams.

i think some breeders will go their own foolish way and that will be bad for pure bred dogs because the public always remember the horror stories.

Just interested were the parents tested for SM. Have been doing some reading and seems the Boston's get this disease too and they think the rate could be getting up there and that testing should be done. Don't forget the spinal deformaties related to the twisted tail, (had a friend with 2 bostons that has this problem, it was so sad) need to make sure the breeder has done spinal xrays on both parents and hopefully the grandparnts too not sure how early you can screen the pup for this.

Of course none of screening the breeders do will stop them from being banned eventually, they are doing lot of research on pug faced breeds and just the deformed skull shape (did you se the study where the olfactory center has moved to a different place in the brain!) and the dwarfism will be enough to do them in. So make hay while you can!

Yes we all have opinions about who the fools really are.

yes bostons get this disease too which is why i was interested in breeders opinions.

i suspect the parents weren't scanned for SM and yes there are a few nasties with spinal and skull deformities.

i am active on a usa forum and there seems to be more info there on boston issues

ss i agree anyone who loves the brachy breeds need to make hay

on the olfactory centre, i am very interested on the plasticity of the human brain and there are amazing things that happen...for instance there is one woman who was born without the left side of her brain and she functions extremely well because the right side of her brain does both sides job.

they have done mri's on people with brain injuries and found that the speech centres move to another area....it is fascinating stuff so i suspect dogs brain can change as well

Edited November 20, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Steve]

We have already been given a heads up that some will be made illegal to breed. Legislation is already in place in Victoria for this.They went softly because hardly anyone bred Scottish Fold cats but now its there and all they have to do is add breeds. [its illegal to breed Scottich fold cats in Victoria] 2 years jail.

[wuffles]

An opinion of someone not in the show world. I have one rescue dog and one purebred from a registered breeder.

Someone else already said this but I think there needs to be more opportunities for the public to see different breeds and meet breeders. I have an Australian Shepherd and no-one I know outside of the dog world has ever heard of them or seen them.

The people I know only know about health problems and other things they "don't like" in the usual breeds from documentaries or word of mouth or even meeting some of these dogs. They always mention pugs and cavaliers. Many mention the modern GSD's back. People say they don't like the look of poodles.

If some of these people actually met some well bred examples of these breeds with no health problems, I think that would help. I get heaps of people asking me for advice about breeds of dog that are right for them but they rarely take it because they go out and meet a "cute" oodle or other crossbreed that is healthy. What if I could say "here are some breeds you might like, and actually, you can go and meet some on x day at x time"? The general public doesn't want to go to dog shows, and often people there don't have the time of day for outsiders. Doggy events that are publicised by the local government, RSPCA, etc. are really well attended in my area, I think that we should make use of these. There were hundreds and hundreds of people at our local Dogs Day Out, there were rescue stalls, obedience demonstrations... but no stalls with friendly people and friendly dogs promoting their breed.

I think that vets can be a very important link as well. Most of the vets I know are happy for people to breed their mutts and lots even promote crossbreeds. The general public trusts vets. Why is it that most vets I've met don't even know what an Australian Shepherd is? Should they be more educated about purebred dogs as well? Our puppy school instructor correctly guessed that one of the pups was a pug x beagle yet looked at my dog with a confused look on her face... "border collie?"

[shortstep]

i hear you ss, i have a boston and if it was up to some people they wouldn't be around and i have just found the boston to be the dog of my dreams.

i think some breeders will go their own foolish way and that will be bad for pure bred dogs because the public always remember the horror stories.

Just interested were the parents tested for SM. Have been doing some reading and seems the Boston's get this disease too and they think the rate could be getting up there and that testing should be done. Don't forget the spinal deformaties related to the twisted tail, (had a friend with 2 bostons that has this problem, it was so sad) need to make sure the breeder has done spinal xrays on both parents and hopefully the grandparnts too not sure how early you can screen the pup for this.

Of course none of screening the breeders do will stop them from being banned eventually, they are doing lot of research on pug faced breeds and just the deformed skull shape (did you se the study where the olfactory center has moved to a different place in the brain!) and the dwarfism will be enough to do them in. So make hay while you can!

Yes we all have opinions about who the fools really are.

yes bostons get this disease too which is why i was interested in breeders opinions.

i suspect the parents weren't scanned for SM and yes there are a few nasties with spinal and skull deformities.

i am active on a usa forum and there seems to be more info there on boston issues

ss i agree anyone who loves the brachy breeds need to make hay

on the olfactory centre, i am very interested on the plasticity of the human brain and there are amazing things that happen...for instance there is one woman who was born without the left side of her brain and she functions extremely well because the right side of her brain does both sides job.

they have done mri's on people with brain injuries and found that the speech centres move to another area....it is fascinating stuff so i suspect dogs brain can change as well

I hope your dog is OK, were you lucky and did not get one with a nastie from a bad breeder?

It is great to speak to someone who holds the wish for purebred dogs that I now intend to support to the best of my ability.

All good luck in bringing about the changes you think are needed in the breeding directives for Bostons in Australia.

Just how many litters/pup a year are there in Australia?

Any idea how many breeders will drop out of breeding if you can get the SM and other tests maditory by law?

Have you done any reserch on how the decreased numbers will affect the breed in Australia prior to it getting banned for good?

How many years do you give the breed before it is banned in Australia?

[Kirty]

Just to clarify, I am fairly sure that it is NOT illegal to breed Scottish Fold cats. I believe it IS illegal to breed a Fold to a Fold, and that is bloody fair enough. Fold to Fold results in severe spinal deformities and usually a whole lot of dead or deformed kittens. Scottish Fold can only be bred to a recognised outcross with normal ears - either a British Shorthair, Persian or the result of these matings, a Scottish Shorthair or Longhair.

[Greytmate]

And I can understand why someone who doesnt breed purebred dogs would think that wanting to fight having a governing body setting guidelines - because if thats all they are - guidelines no one will follow them anyway if they dont want to. My concerns are who will determine who is an expert and independent person to particpate in this and when the guidlines turn into laws and not guidelines .

As soon as you say that because I don't breed dogs that I would think a certain way about your 'fight', you are dismissing my concerns.

When I say guidelines, I am talking about standards or parameters that can be built into legislation.

thats not true Im not dismissing your concerns Im saying there are somethings which we have cncerns about that YOU are dismissing

If the question is "How do we counteract the bad press for purebred dogs?" then the answer is not to air your own concerns.

The answer is to show that 'you' are doing all that is reasonably possible to breed healthy, good quality dogs.

You need to differentiate 'your' brand of dogs from the dogs from all the breeders that do not have the dog's health as a priority.

Being able to meet the standards of an independant and expert 'governing body' is one way of showing integrity and transparency, and that would be one good way to "counteract the bad press".

[Steve]

And I can understand why someone who doesnt breed purebred dogs would think that wanting to fight having a governing body setting guidelines - because if thats all they are - guidelines no one will follow them anyway if they dont want to. My concerns are who will determine who is an expert and independent person to particpate in this and when the guidlines turn into laws and not guidelines .

As soon as you say that because I don't breed dogs that I would think a certain way about your 'fight', you are dismissing my concerns.

When I say guidelines, I am talking about standards or parameters that can be built into legislation.

thats not true Im not dismissing your concerns Im saying there are somethings which we have cncerns about that YOU are dismissing

If the question is "How do we counteract the bad press for purebred dogs?" then the answer is not to air your own concerns.

The answer is to show that 'you' are doing all that is reasonably possible to breed healthy, good quality dogs.

You need to differentiate 'your' brand of dogs from the dogs from all the breeders that do not have the dog's health as a priority.

Being able to meet the standards of an independant and expert 'governing body' is one way of showing integrity and transparency, and that would be one good way to "counteract the bad press".

O.K. Point taken - however if it means I have to say O.K. to new laws in order to show integrity and transparency and counteract the bad press this isnt something Im ready to agree to without trying to find alternatives.

Im not concerned with these things for our members - Im confident that they would passs any test of integrity - its the breeds.

Sure the breeders are under attack too but thats a whole different topic which is being addressed and will be adddressed in various other threads - for this one Im looking at how we can counteract the bad press for our dogs. While I most definitely agree that the two go hand in hand as all of the subjects are intermingled and we will have to bring them all together - is it possible to counteract the bad press our dogs have had ? If so how? Without talking about introducing new laws.

[Greytmate]

Sure the breeders are under attack too but thats a whole different topic which is being addressed and will be adddressed in various other threads - for this one Im looking at how we can counteract the bad press for our dogs. While I most definitely agree that the two go hand in hand as all of the subjects are intermingled and we will have to bring them all together - is it possible to counteract the bad press our dogs have had ? If so how? Without talking about introducing new laws.

By branding and marketing what you do have. And you have something really great.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i hear you ss, i have a boston and if it was up to some people they wouldn't be around and i have just found the boston to be the dog of my dreams.

i think some breeders will go their own foolish way and that will be bad for pure bred dogs because the public always remember the horror stories.

Just interested were the parents tested for SM. Have been doing some reading and seems the Boston's get this disease too and they think the rate could be getting up there and that testing should be done. Don't forget the spinal deformaties related to the twisted tail, (had a friend with 2 bostons that has this problem, it was so sad) need to make sure the breeder has done spinal xrays on both parents and hopefully the grandparnts too not sure how early you can screen the pup for this.

Of course none of screening the breeders do will stop them from being banned eventually, they are doing lot of research on pug faced breeds and just the deformed skull shape (did you se the study where the olfactory center has moved to a different place in the brain!) and the dwarfism will be enough to do them in. So make hay while you can!

Yes we all have opinions about who the fools really are.

yes bostons get this disease too which is why i was interested in breeders opinions.

i suspect the parents weren't scanned for SM and yes there are a few nasties with spinal and skull deformities.

i am active on a usa forum and there seems to be more info there on boston issues

ss i agree anyone who loves the brachy breeds need to make hay

on the olfactory centre, i am very interested on the plasticity of the human brain and there are amazing things that happen...for instance there is one woman who was born without the left side of her brain and she functions extremely well because the right side of her brain does both sides job.

they have done mri's on people with brain injuries and found that the speech centres move to another area....it is fascinating stuff so i suspect dogs brain can change as well

I hope your dog is OK, were you lucky and did not get one with a nastie from a bad breeder?

It is great to speak to someone who holds the wish for purebred dogs that I now intend to support to the best of my ability.

All good luck in bringing about the changes you think are needed in the breeding directives for Bostons in Australia.

Just how many litters/pup a year are there in Australia?

Any idea how many breeders will drop out of breeding if you can get the SM and other tests maditory by law?

Have you done any reserch on how the decreased numbers will affect the breed in Australia prior to it getting banned for good?

How many years do you give the breed before it is banned in Australia?

mine seems ok for now, she is 3 years old and very healthy apart from some allergies to rye grass which i manage.

good questions SS i will ask on the US forum and come back with the answers

there are few well bred bostons in australia and there is a usually huge wait if people want one. if the numbers are decreased at all it will be the end of the breed here for pet owners i fear.

i think the writing is on the wall with airlines refusing to carry them

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i agree with the branding and marketing and to get this done professionally

we need to aim for a wider audience

eta we can learn from other..for instance i think the gap program has done really well in branding and marketing

Edited November 20, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[sas]

What can we do?

Well I believe every breed should have to have their breed related tests done before litters can be registered.

Patterns of health/temperament problems should be followed up.

The thing is that yes there are some great breeders out there but then there are a bunch of bad ones and even some well intentioned ones that don't understand genetics or conformation.

In breif, people need to be held accountable for what they produce.

I see people new to my breed get burned alot.

Edited November 20, 2010 by sas

[shortstep]

Well what exactly is the image you want to project?

If we use DOL main page for example.

I get the idea that this is about show dogs. 3 different things right off, the point score system, the breed show pictures, the show scene magazine.

Then when I look at a few of the listing I mostly see dogs in show stance and words about show champions. So the impression is totally these are show dogs.

I have often said that a lot more time needs to be spent worrying about what the people who own our dogs worry about. They want great pets.

Dogs they can jog with. Dogs that will play nicely with their children. Dogs that are good companions in the home. Dogs they will take for walks.

I do not see any pictures of dogs and people doing any of these things on the home page of DOL.

No article about which breed was voted the best jogging companion, no story about how Robby the Lab is the perfect companion when the family goes camping. No picture of dogs cuddled up watching TV with the kids. No poll asking you to vote for which is the best dog friendly city in Australia.

To me this is marketing the dogs correctly, to the people who will own them, doing what they will be doing with them. Dogs shows have nothing to do with their interest and these days is not something always associated with good thoughts.

Anyone see the insurance commercial with Brian ( wolfhound I think) in the red sports car. Who wouldn't want one. But take that same dog and show him stacked at a dog show and you changed the whole image. How about the Lab tested puppy, nobody wants a lab stack at a dog show but chasing toilet paper rolls around the house, now that is a fun dog.

[shortstep]

What can we do?

Well I believe every breed should have to have their breed related tests done before litters can be registered.

Patterns of health/temperament problems should be followed up.

The thing is that yes there are some great breeders out there but then there are a bunch of bad ones and even some well intentioned ones that don't understand genetics or conformation.

In breif, people need to be held accountable for what they produce.

I see people new to my breed get burned alot.

Well to be fair, if you are going to have breeding decisions mandated and controlled by "experts" then they will have to be accountable for what is produced. Can't have it both ways.

Now to try to make more wishes come true. The first thing the experts will do when they take over the breeding of danes will be to reduce the size down to a non giant breed size, like a hunting type breed I would say. Next would be to fix the heart and cancer problems and you will know the answer to that better than I, but I do not think further screening would be seen as the way to tackle the problem. So your dane will not be much of a dane, but this should take care of some of the genetic and conformation problems you want addressed.

[Greytmate]

Well to be fair, if you are going to have breeding decisions mandated and controlled by "experts" then they will have to be accountable for what is produced. Can't have it both ways.

Now to try to make more wishes come true. The first thing the experts will do when they take over the breeding of danes will be to reduce the size down to a non giant breed size, like a hunting type breed I would say. Next would be to fix the heart and cancer problems and you will know the answer to that better than I, but I do not think further screening would be seen as the way to tackle the problem. So your dane will not be much of a dane, but this should take care of some of the genetic and conformation problems you want addressed.

What makes you say that? How would you define an expert?

[sas]

What can we do?

Well I believe every breed should have to have their breed related tests done before litters can be registered.

Patterns of health/temperament problems should be followed up.

The thing is that yes there are some great breeders out there but then there are a bunch of bad ones and even some well intentioned ones that don't understand genetics or conformation.

In breif, people need to be held accountable for what they produce.

I see people new to my breed get burned alot.

Well to be fair, if you are going to have breeding decisions mandated and controlled by "experts" then they will have to be accountable for what is produced. Can't have it both ways.

Now to try to make more wishes come true. The first thing the experts will do when they take over the breeding of danes will be to reduce the size down to a non giant breed size, like a hunting type breed I would say. Next would be to fix the heart and cancer problems and you will know the answer to that better than I, but I do not think further screening would be seen as the way to tackle the problem. So your dane will not be much of a dane, but this should take care of some of the genetic and conformation problems you want addressed.

What a cop out.

[Steve]

What can we do?

Well I believe every breed should have to have their breed related tests done before litters can be registered.

Patterns of health/temperament problems should be followed up.

The thing is that yes there are some great breeders out there but then there are a bunch of bad ones and even some well intentioned ones that don't understand genetics or conformation.

In breif, people need to be held accountable for what they produce.

I see people new to my breed get burned alot.

Well to be fair, if you are going to have breeding decisions mandated and controlled by "experts" then they will have to be accountable for what is produced. Can't have it both ways.

Now to try to make more wishes come true. The first thing the experts will do when they take over the breeding of danes will be to reduce the size down to a non giant breed size, like a hunting type breed I would say. Next would be to fix the heart and cancer problems and you will know the answer to that better than I, but I do not think further screening would be seen as the way to tackle the problem. So your dane will not be much of a dane, but this should take care of some of the genetic and conformation problems you want addressed.

I cant see it going that way - at least not in the near future and what happens over the next few months in the UK will be worth watching but I have no doubt that some breed standards will be reassessed and judged not to be best for the welfare of the dogs and some practices which breeders have used as tools to identify and eliminate problems will be outlawed.