Food Vs Toys

[J...]

you certainly can't get a working spot at a seminar if your dog won't tug.

Were you told that specifically?

Several of the working spot handlers were using food exclusively, and there was several dogs there that I never seen play with a tug toy.

Should add merely curious is all

Edited November 20, 2010 by Jess.

[huski]

why do you need the dog to take both in the same session? Why can't you simply use one or the other in a certain session?

Because flexibility in reward selection and placement makes for flexible training and flexible performance. What if you want to switch from a highly aroused behaviour to a calm behaviour in one session, or vice versa? I don't want to be fighting my dog if I decide to do that and he decides he's not done with whatever reward we were using a moment ago. Plus I can reward wherever I want my dog to be, whether I'm right there or not, and I can switch between instant, rapid-fire rewards and bigger, but less frequent pay.

Personally, that flexibility is important to me. I don't want to have to shape my training sessions around what mood my dog is in, whether I put him in that mood or not. Especially given my dog gets into routines and is then extremely difficult to shift from them.

I can't speak for Seita but I know that when I am doing drive work, I don't want a calm dog, and I'm yet to have a training session where I am working my dog in drive and then I suddenly decide I want a totally calm dog in the same session instead. If I want to take my dog out of drive, I end the session, pretty simple really. If you are doing drive work you want a dog who is a desperate for the reward, frustrated, totally excited. I want reliable performance.

[Kavik]

you certainly can't get a working spot at a seminar if your dog won't tug.

Were you told that specifically?

Several of the working spot handlers were using food exclusively, and there was several dogs there that I never seen play with a tug toy.

Should add merely curious is all

You certainly had to have done Crate Games. I guess I assumed tug was a prerequisite as well as she doesn't really accept many students into her classes in Canada that won't tug and a lot of her program is reliant on you being able to tug with your dog.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Kavik

[corvus]

Never mind.

Edited November 20, 2010 by corvus

[huski]

Corvus I think it depends on your goals in training. I like to be able to use a variety of rewards, but not for drive work, at least not in the same session.

You can still have reliability when using one reward in training session. I give my dog a specific cue to let her know we will be working in drive, she knows she is going to get an awesome food reward, but she doesn't know when she will get it, and I try to keep when I deliver the reward random so she never knows if she'll get it when I line her up at a heel, or at the end of the exercise, or in the middle of an exercise, or two steps into heelwork or ten steps etc.

If your dog will only work in a certain location, when it sees the reward/treat pouch, etc then that's lazy training.

But like I said it depends on your goals. I want a dog who will switch on and give me 110% when I ask for it, in those sessions I want as much drive as possible, and I simply can't get the same amount of drive with praise/a pat/a toy as I can with food. Not all people want the same thing and are happy for a dog to work calmly, out of drive, not give 110% as long as they comply and 'work' on some level for a variety of rewards. I can see the benefit in that in some instances, but it wouldn't work with the way I train and there is no way I could reliably get the same level of drive. My dog has no problem complying with my commands for a variety of rewards (pats, praise, a toy, life rewards). But I don't ask or expect her to give me 110% for them.

Edited November 20, 2010 by huski

[J...]

you certainly can't get a working spot at a seminar if your dog won't tug.

Were you told that specifically?

Several of the working spot handlers were using food exclusively, and there was several dogs there that I never seen play with a tug toy.

Should add merely curious is all

You certainly had to have done Crate Games. I guess I assumed tug was a prerequisite as well as she doesn't really accept many students into her classes in Canada that won't tug and a lot of her program is reliant on you being able to tug with your dog.

Thanks - I was aware of the official criteria for a working spot but wondered if that was an "unofficial" requirement given the number of people who would've applied for working spots.

Sorry for the OT

[corvus]

Corvus I think it depends on your goals in training.

I don't! I think it depends on how flexible you want your ability to reward. And how you want to use (or misuse) establishing operations. I can't imagine why anyone would be content to mould their training programs around their dog's inability to switch between rewards. That's got squat to do with my goals and everything to do with the degree of flexibility in rewarding that I like to work with. And the fact that I have a dog that is better at establishing operations than I am.

[huski]

Corvus I think it depends on your goals in training.

I don't! I think it depends on how flexible you want your ability to reward. And how you want to use (or misuse) establishing operations. I can't imagine why anyone would be content to mould their training programs around their dog's inability to switch between rewards. That's got squat to do with my goals and everything to do with the degree of flexibility in rewarding that I like to work with. And the fact that I have a dog that is better at establishing operations than I am.

Did you even read my post above? It's not about having the ability to reward with other things. I have many things other than food I can reward my dog with; praise, toys, life rewards etc but the difference when I use food drive is that I am asking my dog to give me a lot more and I'm guaranteeing that not only will she get a food reward, but also a chemical reward (a release of endorphins). Why would I want to run a drive session, designed specifically to get my dog aroused, super excited, desperate for a specific reward I can give her only to then decide I want her to be totally calm instead? Using one reward in one training session is not the same as only ever using one reward in all interactions you have with your dog. There's also a big difference between using food exchange and food drive which can also dictate the value of the reward to the dog.

[Seita]

I can't imagine why anyone would be content to mould their training programs around their dog's inability to switch between rewards. That's got squat to do with my goals and everything to do with the degree of flexibility in rewarding that I like to work with.

Sorry to pick out your comment corvus, but I can't see why anyone "NEEDS" the flexibility to mix up the rewards. If a dog clearly works best for reward A why does reward B NEED to be just as good? I think this is just us humans wanting to control things to the nth degree; honestly what difference does it make to the dogs training to have it accept all rewards equally?

[JulesP]

I would like to see how Pep goes for food if the food is made more exciting. Use similar teasing movements with the food and move it around like you would with the tug.

Huski I understand the calm thing. My borders are less bouncy in drive then out of drive. Think of the border collie crouching low and inching towards the sheep. That dog is in drive. Mine go very intense and quite still when in drive. Very controlled. The Mals I have seen in drive have the same intense look.

[huski]

Huski I understand the calm thing. My borders are less bouncy in drive then out of drive. Think of the border collie crouching low and inching towards the sheep. That dog is in drive. Mine go very intense and quite still when in drive. Very controlled. The Mals I have seen in drive have the same intense look.

Just to clarify, I don't mean to imply that dogs in drive are nutso and out of control, I was using the word calm to distinguish between a dog in drive and a dog out of drive. IMO, I don't really associate calm with drive - focused, in control, yep, but calm to me is the opposite of a dog in drive who is adrenalised and aroused. Intense and quiet is not the say IMO as calmness. Also, if I wanted my dog to become more controlled and focused on the job whilst in drive I wouldn't do so by changing the reward/type of drive I was using.

Edited November 20, 2010 by huski

[JulesP]

Just to clarify, I don't mean to imply that dogs in drive are nutso and out of control, I was using the word calm to distinguish between a dog in drive and a dog out of drive. IMO, I don't really associate calm with drive - focused, in control, yep, but calm to me is the opposite of a dog in drive who is adrenalised and aroused. Intense and quiet is not the say IMO as calmness. Also, if I wanted my dog to become more controlled and focused on the job whilst in drive I wouldn't do so by changing the reward/type of drive I was using.

No worries. I know you are doing the drive training program so do know, but I see a heap of people who think it means the dog is just really razzed up.

[corvus]

Sorry to pick out your comment corvus, but I can't see why anyone "NEEDS" the flexibility to mix up the rewards. If a dog clearly works best for reward A why does reward B NEED to be just as good? I think this is just us humans wanting to control things to the nth degree; honestly what difference does it make to the dogs training to have it accept all rewards equally?

Because delivery differs. Where I've been learning agility, we use food for introducing dogs to new equipment, for targeting, and for flat work. This works well because they are all things where we want to keep reward rates high and delivery clean and fast. There is nothing like rapid-fire for teaching something new or teaching position, and I LOVE it, but you just can't do it with anything but food. I've tried doing flat work with toys and it works after a fashion, but if my food reward delivery were better I'd pick food. It's less disruptive.

We use toys where we want a fast drive to somewhere beyond where we are. That way we reward away from us where we want the dog to be and we can deliver it as close to possible to the point where the dog did the right thing. Technically you don't need to do that if you have a bridge, but we use it to keep them from stopping to turn around to see where their reward is coming from.

There are some other reasons as well, but that's getting into the affective neuroscience theory stuff and personal preference. Ultimately, why have one reward when you can have two? Why have two when you can have three? It's like having backup. My dog that works mostly for food one time got carsick on the way to the beach and didn't want treats when he got there. He was in the middle of recall training at the time and because we had no other reward that could match treats, our recall training was set back several months. Why put all your eggs in one basket? Who knows when you are going to need flexibility?

[Kavik]

Susan Garrett says she wants to achieve balance with her dogs - between 'quivering self control' and what she calls 'blinding squirrel speed' and between tug drive and food drive as examples.

Like corvus says, sometimes in agility using food is the best and easiest way to achieve results (such as targeting, nose touches for teaching contact position) and toys are better for driving ahead. Also she uses tug as relationship building and revving up before exercises and as breaks between exercises, so needs to be able to switch betwen tug and food for this.

As Kaos doesn't tug reliably, I use a thrown squeaky toy for driving ahead and games with food such as circle work, spins, hand touches for revving up before exercises and breaks between exercises. But I can see why tug would be better for this.