Food Vs Toys

[Vickie]

I've noticed that pep is heaps faster/keener/drivier to train for toys.

She loves her food too though. If we were to take her out in 2 separate instances, she will give 110% for a toy & 60% for food on the same exercise.

However, if you start with food, it is hard to switch to a toy and she looks for the food. I find it really odd. My girls will train with either, but always prefer the toy. If you switch to food, it's hard to get them to take it after the toy. If you start with food they are more than happy to switch to a toy.

We will work on it with pep so she will happily take either, I just think it's odd, since she is much more eager for a toy

Edited November 19, 2010 by Vickie

[W Sibs]

Emmy is not very food driven either. She is has prey drive, so she prefers toys and anything you can play tug with!

Maybe Pep is the same?

[corvus]

Aww, that is such an interesting question, and one me and some friends have been discussing for months! If I answer lots of people will tell me scornfully that I don't know anything about drive, so I'm just gonna keep my big mouth shut and suggest some reading.

You should absolutely look up Jaak Panksepp, who is an affective neuroscientist. He has some theories about this kind of thing that are pretty widely accepted, and if you can follow his brain modes model, and throw in some basic stuff about what the body does under stress, it all starts to come together. Have you read Karen Pryor's book "Reaching the Animal Mind?" She touches on it as well, in a more easily understood manner. Steven Lindsay also talks about Panksepp, as does Steve White. Peta Clarke was talking about it at the APDT conference, as well. Panksepp is all the rage. :D It's funny, because he's not all together popular with scientists after claiming that rats laugh. He has done some famous work tickling and playing rough and tumble with rats. I also found Robert Sapolsky's book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers to be surprisingly enlightening and a really entertaining read. I think it's gone out of print, though. :D I snapped up the last two copies in Hollywood and I had to go to several stores to find them!

Panksepp misses some important things because he's a neuroscientist. It's good to remember that one way to build arousal is with physical activity, and I thought it helped for me to get my head around exactly what characterises play and what it's for. I've probably got papers somewhere if anyone's interested. A lot of Panksepp's work is available online for free. Just not the text book.

[Vickie]

Thanks Corvus, honestly, I'm not sure I care enough to do a heap of readng about it. Seems easier just to fix it :D .

I just thought the inconsistency of it all was odd. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that she obviously hasn't been played with much wherever she was before here.

If I get some time over the weekend, I will try to have a look at some of it (and hopefully understand it :D ). Thank you.

[Luke W]

Barkly will work for toys at 50%. Food at 110%.

If I start with a toy - he's got about 50% drive.

Once the food comes out - he loses interest in toys.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Luke W

[Vickie]

Barkly will work for toys at 50%. Food at 110%.

If I start with a toy - he's got about 50% drive.

Once the food comes out - he loses interest in toys.

At least that's consistent & after all he is a cocker :D They love their food.

Pep will literally turn herself inside out for a toy. She will flip through the air, grabbing at it with no regard for her body. She will fly over a jump for a toy & almost trot over for food.

So what is she more driven by? Given that she will hardly look at the toy if food is out.

[PAX]

You could make the food delivery more exciting, not like posting a letter. :D

[Jigsaw]

Susan Garrett spoke about transfering the value of one reward to another at her seminar on the weekend. She suggests say if the dog is not toy driven presenting the toy first and if the dog interacts with it then it gets the food. If the dog is overly distracted by the presence of food move away from the food and when the dog interacts (this could be from looking at it to smelling it) you run back to the place with the food. If need be the food could be in another room.

[corvus]

Thanks Corvus, honestly, I'm not sure I care enough to do a heap of readng about it. Seems easier just to fix it .

:D But it's so interesting!

Just kidding. Sorry, I got a bit overexcited and forgot where I was. Honestly, there's a wealth of information out there, but it takes a lot of endurance to wade through it. :D

Erik is a bit like this, though. I think for him it's mostly about cues. He is forever anticipating what is going to happen next. If he thinks he's getting a food reward next, he loses all interest in toys and actually finds them a bit annoying. And vice versa if he's expecting a toy reward. It's a major headache and I'm currently trying to scramble his cues so he just doesn't know what he's getting next, but it's delicate because if he doesn't get what he's expecting to get it pretty much ruins the training session. So I'm painstakingly training him bit by bit that the only reliable cue for what he's getting is what is in my hand when I mark him. I've gone to training play as a behaviour with food rewards to help with this. Ken Ramirez talked specifically about this at the APDT conference, showing a video to demonstrate how his dog who normally loves this one toy totally ignores it when she's expecting a food reward. He has a very nice systematic way of introducing different rewards into training that I've decided to try with Erik.

The key point in Panksepp's theory for me is that playing and eating/looking for food are two separate modes in the brain, so switching from one to the other isn't necessarily simple and may take practice. Food can lower arousal in some circumstances, whereas play always increases arousal. Active, energetic behaviour requires high arousal, so if I want one of my dogs to do something fast, I would get them super aroused. Play does that, but so can anticipation for food. If they just know they're gonna get some food and it's just SO easy, they get aroused and that makes them more active.

Another theory was spoken about by Lindsay at the NDTF conference. He was saying you can't reward a dog with anything but the reward they were looking for. If they want to bite the mailman, you can give them food and won't be reinforcing wanting to bite the mailman. It's the basis of counterconditioning. In Lindsay's book it's called reciprocal inhibition, and is defined as the idea that two hedonically opposing emotional states cannot exist simultaneously and one will always overshadow the other. Maybe it's the same with food and toys in some dogs?

There I go, opening my big mouth like I said I wouldn't.

[W Sibs]

Barkly will work for toys at 50%. Food at 110%.

If I start with a toy - he's got about 50% drive.

Once the food comes out - he loses interest in toys.

At least that's consistent & after all he is a cocker :D They love their food.

Pep will literally turn herself inside out for a toy. She will flip through the air, grabbing at it with no regard for her body. She will fly over a jump for a toy & almost trot over for food.

So what is she more driven by? Given that she will hardly look at the toy if food is out.

Some dogs are just toy driven.

Bring out a tug toy and she won't even notice the food either.

Edited November 19, 2010 by CW EW

[Nekhbet]

depends what you have conditioned. If you train that food rewards have come quickly for behaviours exhibited during training the dog will be focussing on getting more reward - that being food.

Prey drive switches off or decreases food drive. If you start with a toy the dog progresses further and further into prey and food drive is buried hence they ignore it.

If you want to rely on a really high value reward use one or the other. Whatever your dog inherantly works harder for you should be relying on as a reward. My Malinois will work for both, a hell of a lot harder for a prey item. Food, eh, she begs for it but looses interest in a few repetitions. She's cracked a rib over a prey reward and come back for round two ... which do you think I prefer for this dog.

[RubyStar]

Naturally my girls love to work for food, they are Labs afterall.

But bring out a toy that squeaks and can be chased after, the enthusiasm almost doubles. I can switch between the two types of reward, but I think in most instances, the ball is the reward of choice. Which is fine by me, I don't have to buy as many treats to train agility (I use food mostly for obedience training as I find it easier to train precision with food, whereas I find it easier to train obstacles and them focusing forward with a toy reward).

Edited November 19, 2010 by RubyStar

[Seita]

why do you need the dog to take both in the same session? Why can't you simply use one or the other in a certain session? I'd just use whatever makes the dog tick best... My girl is very very very tug motivated and moderately food motivated, I use food for situations where I want her to remain a bit calmer or when teaching a behaviour and tug when I want her giving her absolute best with loads of enthusiasm.

[Vickie]

why do you need the dog to take both in the same session? Why can't you simply use one or the other in a certain session? I'd just use whatever makes the dog tick best... My girl is very very very tug motivated and moderately food motivated, I use food for situations where I want her to remain a bit calmer or when teaching a behaviour and tug when I want her giving her absolute best with loads of enthusiasm.

good point seita & that is exactly what we will be doing for now. I only really mentioned it as my daughter started playing crate games with her & there is a step that you use food to touch their collar & then toy to reward. The issue became very apparent very quickly, so I thought I'd share how odd it was on here.

The dog trainer on me wants to work through it though

I just need to put it all into better perspective

the dog in question came out of the pound 10 weeks ago with no trained behaviours or experience in play AND she is being trained by an 11 yo. I am over the moon with how well they are both doing.

[Vickie]

depends what you have conditioned. If you train that food rewards have come quickly for behaviours exhibited during training the dog will be focussing on getting more reward - that being food.

Prey drive switches off or decreases food drive. If you start with a toy the dog progresses further and further into prey and food drive is buried hence they ignore it.

If you want to rely on a really high value reward use one or the other. Whatever your dog inherantly works harder for you should be relying on as a reward. My Malinois will work for both, a hell of a lot harder for a prey item. Food, eh, she begs for it but looses interest in a few repetitions. She's cracked a rib over a prey reward and come back for round two ... which do you think I prefer for this dog.

thanks nekhbet

all of that makes a lot of sense to me. You are right, we have conditioned the value of both rewards differently. And it makes sense to only use toys when we want the drive she is currently giving

[Nekhbet]

I think people misunderstand the point of drive, switching a dog into prey drive does not mean a hyped up dog that wont listen. Many performance and working dogs are only trained in food OR prey. You can get the same outcome. I taught my malinois all her obedience through prey only, she even gets a prey reward when we're out and about. Doesnt mean she's not calm and stable

And it makes sense to only use toys when we want the drive she is currently giving

that sentence should be 'when I want to give my a dog a mega high value reward'.

I use food for situations where I want her to remain a bit calmer

this is because the teaching of self control via prey reward is still not very well known in Australia. So we swap to a lower value reward because we cannot teach the dog to sit still.

like I said, prey drive training does not mean manic super spaz dog. You can have a calmer dog and prey training all in one

[corvus]

why do you need the dog to take both in the same session? Why can't you simply use one or the other in a certain session?

Because flexibility in reward selection and placement makes for flexible training and flexible performance. What if you want to switch from a highly aroused behaviour to a calm behaviour in one session, or vice versa? I don't want to be fighting my dog if I decide to do that and he decides he's not done with whatever reward we were using a moment ago. Plus I can reward wherever I want my dog to be, whether I'm right there or not, and I can switch between instant, rapid-fire rewards and bigger, but less frequent pay.

Personally, that flexibility is important to me. I don't want to have to shape my training sessions around what mood my dog is in, whether I put him in that mood or not. Especially given my dog gets into routines and is then extremely difficult to shift from them.

[Kavik]

Susan Garrett wants the dog to take whatever reward is offered, whether food or tug. She works hard at making sure the dog will take either one, and to be able to switch from one to the other in the same session.

Mine will switch from food to squeaky fine but will lose interest in the tug if either food or squeaky is presented. I got some good tips on how to deal with this, we'll see how we go

[Nekhbet]

Susan Garrett wants the dog to take whatever reward is offered, whether food or tug. She works hard at making sure the dog will take either one, and to be able to switch from one to the other in the same session.

see I think we work too hard sometimes. Why try and train the dog to take so many different rewards and value them highly etc when just use what the dog likes the most

Or do people just want things to be arse about. Having a toolbox means you are capable of utilising different rewards properly, not that you force them all onto the one dog.

[Kavik]

She doesn't use physical or verbal corrections, so her program relies a lot on controlling access to reinforcement. You can't really do her program fully if your dog won't tug. (you certainly can't get a working spot at a seminar if your dog won't tug. She does not like using balls as rewards at all - has to be a tug for a toy reward. Got me into trouble as my dog prefers thrown squeaky toy to anything else ). She showed one clip where she was using food to teach self control and focus, and then at the end she wants to have a game of tug, and the dog doesn't want the tug (it does normally like tug) but wants to continue with the food game. She works with the dog and tug until she gets the dog tugging. It is very interesting.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Kavik