Natural Mating Versus Frozen On A Maiden

[Bilbo Baggins]

What are the experiences of of doing a natural, be natural or fresh AI, over a Surgical Implant of frozen semen for a maiden bitch??

[Firestone]

What are the experiences of of doing a natural, be natural or fresh AI, over a Surgical Implant of frozen semen for a maiden bitch??

Have done Surgical and TCIs on three maiden bitches now and apart from the cost factor of the surgical ones all worked out well for us with a fertility specialist, our everyday vet (who had not done one before) and one at the vet at Monash.

Travel is a factor us for natural matings and the airlines out of Northern Tassie are hard to get on sometimes as we only have Virgin at Launceston. Even travelling for vets who specialise here can mean a 2.5 hour drive. For us some lovely puppies was the bonus and in the end thats all the matters

[espinay2]

Can't comment from experience, though am interested in the subject as I am planning a frozen semen AI on a maiden bitch. As a result I have been researching the subject a bit lately (love Dr Hutch - he is the guru). Basically, it seems from what I have read that it will depend on other factors, with the fact she is a maiden only factoring in in some cases. If there is an infertility problem the method will not necessarily be the issue. If the bitch is young and a maiden then doing an AI as opposed to a natural is apparently not really an issue and many even seem to say go for transcervical AI in these cases rather than surgical as the bitch should be fit and healthy with a healthy uterus. An older maiden bitch perhaps moreso an issue depending on the health of her uterus (read Dr Hutch's views for example on how each season damages the uterus and the older the bitch the more 'worn out' it will be - he considers a bitch under 5, but preferably '2 years of age after all necessary health checks are completed' ideal breeding age for a first litter no matter what the method). In these case surgical is better than transcervical it seems as the uterus can be examined and any cysts which may have formed broken up before implantation. Apart from that it largely comes down to correct timing as you have a much smaller window of opportunity with frozen semen (the semen will live for around 24 hours max as opposed to around 7 days for natural so you have to time it well to ensure fertilisation). I will be interested to hear peoples actual experiences doing I's on maiden bitches though! Firestone you have certainly eased my mind a bit. What age were the bitches when they were done?

[Bilbo Baggins]

espinay2 I assume you mean DR. ROBERT HUTCHINSON??

[ellz]

espinay2 I assume you mean DR. ROBERT HUTCHINSON??

Psst....BB, I assume YOU mean Dr Robert Van HUTCHISON, the Canine Repro Specialist from the USA?

In response to the OP, these days, I don't think there is a lot of difference. Back when artificial insemination in canine reproduction was still a very new issue it was widely thought that the best chance of frozen insemination was in proven bitches. It isn't at all the case these days. Many people are having just as much success on maiden bitches as they are on proven bitches. Much of this is the advance in progesterone testing and a better understanding of the best days and times to implant.

[espinay2]

Psst....BB, I assume YOU mean Dr Robert Van HUTCHISON, the Canine Repro Specialist from the USA?

Yep Sorry, should have written his name in full. So used to just referring to him as Dr Hutch as my US friends do LOL! (Most seem to know him as that over there).

BTW, his video 'Maximising Conception in the Bitch' is excellent and really de-mystifies the AI process.

[Sandra777]

I pondered this question long and hard about 3 years ago. Ended up doing TC frozen with a maiden bitch. She conceived one puppy so to reduce the risk all round she had an elective caesar 63 days after ovulation. Unfortunately the pup died at 3 days but that really has nothing to do with the frozen semen or the caesar.

Fast forward 2 years, did a natural with the same bitch, she conceived 5 pups but didn't proceed in labour and had a caesar, had the beginnings of a rupture the size of my hand which the vet couldn't say for sure was or wasn't the site of the previous caesar. (all pups lived and she was a fabulous mum) She is now spayed.

My reasoning (If caesars aren't common in the breed you're talking about this won't apply) -- the bitch was born by caesarian so was a possible candidate for a caesar. Not ideal but just a fact. IF she had a natural mating first and had to have a caesar it could affect her ability to carry/conceive optimum numbers the second time. Not a common risk but a possibly one. So having a litter first could jeopordise using the frozen for her second litter and getting the best result.

OK things turned out to be the other way around but that's not really the point, hindsight is a fabulous thing!

My second reason was that there wasn't actually a dog I wanted to use on her at that time except the frozen one

On the whole I would say that if the bitch isn't a possible candidate for a caesar (either by family history or by breed) AND there is another dog you want to use, I personally would do the natural mating first - establish she is a good mum and find out if she's a good producer then go for the frozen for the second litter.

Yep, I know lots of people who have used frozen to maidens and had no problems, big litters and been really happy. I know lots of people who have used frozen to bitches on their third or even forth litter and been happy and had great results.

In reality, every single mating is a toss up you really just have to go with your gut feeling.

ETA: I have had fresh AI's with a couple of maiden bitches over the years for a couple of reasons, never found it to be an issue either way.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Sandra777

[dancinbcs]

I only know of a few maidens that have successfully whelped a full litter conceived by frozen semen. Most seem to have just one puppy or none at all whereas the experienced mothers seem to conceive more. Of course this might have happened with natural matings but at least the cost would have been less and precious, irreplacable semen not wasted.

Maidens often miss on their first mating (natural or otherwise) but are fine if mated on the next season. No idea why, just anecdotal evidence over the years. If you are doing frozen semen for convenience rather than flying the bitch interstate then the cost is probably comparable anyway. If, however the semen is very precious and unable to be replaced, I would prefer to use it on a proven bitch that you know can conceive and raise a litter.

[Rebanne]

Fern's mother 6 yo maiden with 10 yo FS - 13 pups, 11 surviving

Fern 2 yo maiden with 18/20 yo FS - 2 pups

Fern's sister 3 yo maiden FS at least 5 yo - 9 pups I think it was, 7 or 8 survivng

[dancinbcs]

Fern's mother 6 yo maiden with 10 yo FS - 13 pups, 11 surviving

Fern 2 yo maiden with 18/20 yo FS - 2 pups

Fern's sister 3 yo maiden FS at least 5 yo - 9 pups I think it was, 7 or 8 survivng

A lot depends on the breed for some reason. Hounds seem to have better success than other breeds. Large FS litters in Afghans and Greyhounds are common but not so much in other breeds.

[Bulldust]

We are debating this at the moment, we are not sure whether to do a natural mating first to get the bitch 'proven' and then do frozen semen for her second litter, or just do frozen for her first....

[angelsun]

I've found it has more to do with the age of the bitch, rather than the method of insemination (natural/fresh collect/frozen) As well, the condition of the bitch is also paramount and can override age in some cases (have had that happen in my case)

I'll be doing my next three matings with frozen as there isn't really much in the way of males to use that will compliment and improve with my bitches. Raised eyebrows I"m sure from many, but I"m not about to just do a litter to prove a bitch, without the change of improvement..I'll wait, take my chance and work with my vet and hope for the best.