Judy Gard - All Done

[asal]

Since when can we not remove dewclaws from pups???? I thought we were still allowed to..... Have I missed something?

No, you have missed nothing, as far aw I know anywho.

But, there are those receptionists at some vet surgeries will tell you "We dont remove dewclaws on pups here".

They say it as a form of mutilation and this is the general feeling that is passed on to new vet nursing recruits I am told.

The vets themselves WILL do it, 9 times out of 10.

It is pathetic when you have to get past the receptionist and ask the vet but that is the way it is.

I suppose they feel that if they keep up their PETA mantra and keep on bullying people out of having it done, most people will THINK there is a law against it, when there is not.

Souff

Unfortunately, it looks like I DID miss something Under the DPI (Vic) regulations, dewclaws may only be removed by a veterinarian. So at least we can still do it, but..... now to find a vet who will as you say, do it and be, who KNOWS how to do it.

Gonna say here and now, if there is anyone in Victoria who hasn't read the DPI website and all publications/links relating to dogs & cats in Victoria - do it as soon as you can and take notes because any one of us could be next

Are you kidding me- when were they going to let us know - when the first charges were laid?

No fricken' idea! I will find the exact legislation tomorrow (if you haven't already, I'm about to go to bed). I had to read and re-read as when I had my litter I checked and triple checked what the legislation was.

Definitely something that NEEDS to be out there so that people know.

Erny- I would rather trust a breeder with hands on experience over a clinically trained veterinarian to touch my babies any day. Not to mention the risk that is incurred taking the litter to a vet clinic to be done.

One thing I am still unclear on is, can we still have our dogs debarked interstate as long as we don't exhibit in Victoria?

yes cute isnt it, you take your puppies to the vet for their vaccinations and they take no responsibility if they catch any of the 101 diseases some visiting actually SICK dog is busy shedding in the waiting room. and now they want you to bring them in even younger for their dewclaws to be done IF THEY will do it?

yet how many have seen the mess unclipped dewclaws can make when they havent been removed? like who decides to make this nonsense law?

[Steve]

Since when can we not remove dewclaws from pups???? I thought we were still allowed to..... Have I missed something?

No, you have missed nothing, as far aw I know anywho.

But, there are those receptionists at some vet surgeries will tell you "We dont remove dewclaws on pups here".

They say it as a form of mutilation and this is the general feeling that is passed on to new vet nursing recruits I am told.

The vets themselves WILL do it, 9 times out of 10.

It is pathetic when you have to get past the receptionist and ask the vet but that is the way it is.

I suppose they feel that if they keep up their PETA mantra and keep on bullying people out of having it done, most people will THINK there is a law against it, when there is not.

Souff

Unfortunately, it looks like I DID miss something Under the DPI (Vic) regulations, dewclaws may only be removed by a veterinarian. So at least we can still do it, but..... now to find a vet who will as you say, do it and be, who KNOWS how to do it.

Gonna say here and now, if there is anyone in Victoria who hasn't read the DPI website and all publications/links relating to dogs & cats in Victoria - do it as soon as you can and take notes because any one of us could be next

Are you kidding me- when were they going to let us know - when the first charges were laid?

No fricken' idea! I will find the exact legislation tomorrow (if you haven't already, I'm about to go to bed). I had to read and re-read as when I had my litter I checked and triple checked what the legislation was.

Definitely something that NEEDS to be out there so that people know.

Erny- I would rather trust a breeder with hands on experience over a clinically trained veterinarian to touch my babies any day. Not to mention the risk that is incurred taking the litter to a vet clinic to be done.

One thing I am still unclear on is, can we still have our dogs debarked interstate as long as we don't exhibit in Victoria?

yes cute isnt it, you take your puppies to the vet for their vaccinations and they take no responsibility if they catch any of the 101 diseases some visiting actually SICK dog is busy shedding in the waiting room. and now they want you to bring them in even younger for their dewclaws to be done IF THEY will do it?

yet how many have seen the mess unclipped dewclaws can make when they havent been removed? like who decides to make this nonsense law?

http://new.dpi.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pd...37/Dog-code.pdf

Its just over regulation at its best. They haven't stopped you yet from doing it interstate so Im assuming anyone who is needing to have their pups done will come and visit across the border for a day to be sure they arent breaking the law when they do it In fact considering the whole debarking thing its probably best if you come interstate for a holiday to whelp your bitch too. I might set up holiday whelping cabins so people can come and stay with their bitches ,whelp them because you can give em an injection here too without a vet to do it, nip the dewclaws off and everyone will be happy. Come to think of it you'd better bring em across the border to mate them too in case in 5 years time they find you have bred a carrier.

Wonder how long it will be before we cant cut their toe nails?

[Steve]

Now according to this you only need these pieces of paper from the council if the dog is being debarked because it is a public nuisance

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/nreninf.nsf/...19000EFD4A?open

Given the definition of prophylactic is - Acting to defend against or prevent something, especially disease; protective. I reckon its a fair argument that a person could have them debarked to protect them from being in the poo for barking.

This code aims to protect the welfare of dogs from indiscriminate debarking and to encourage considerate management of debarked dogs. This Code is complementary to and should be read in conjunction with Clause 9(l) of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act which prohibits debarking of dogs except by and on the advice of a registered veterinary practitioner and in accordance with this Code of Practice.

Meaning of debarking

For the purposes of this Code 'debarking' means the surgical operation performed by a registered veterinary practitioner to reduce the noise of a dog's bark. When a dog is debarked its ability to communicate with other animals and human beings is reduced. Most debarked dogs have a subdued "husky" bark, audible up to 20 metres.

Circumstances in which a dog may be debarked

This code recognises that debarking a dog may be necessary for therapeutic or prophylactic effects, or as an alternative to euthanasia for a dog declared to be a public nuisance because it barks persistently.

A dog is a public nuisance where – there have been written complaints from the occupiers of not less than two neighbouring residences or in isolated areas two written complaints from persons occupying the same residence, submitted to the Municipal offices, and investigation by an authorised officer of the municipality confirms that despite every reasonable effort by the owner to discourage the dog from barking by considerate care, training and management the dog continues to bark persistently.

This Code does not approve of debarking as a substitute for proper care, management and training of a dog. When management changes and training are undertaken, sufficient time should always be allowed for behaviour changes in a dog to be evident.

Responsibilities of the owner in the case of a dog which is a public nuisance

An owner who intends to have a dog debarked BECAUSE IT IS A PUBLIC NUISANCE must first complete a Statutory Declaration to the effect that the dog is a public nuisance because of its persistent barking and that every reasonable effort has been made to discourage the dog from barking by considerate care, training and management. The owner is to further declare that the only alternative to debarking the dog is to have it destroyed. A model Statutory Declaration is attached.

The owner must also obtain from the Chief Executive Officer (or delegate) of the Council of the Municipal District in which the dog is registered a written declaration which certifies that -

there have been written complaints from two or more neighbouring residences or, in isolated areas, two written complaints from the same residence, submitted to the Municipal offices, and

an authorised officer of the Municipality has investigated the complaints and has confirmed that reasonable efforts by the owner have failed to discourage the dog from persistently barking.

A model declaration is attached (Appendix).

The Registered Veterinary Practitioner who is to perform the debarking operation is required to notify the Bureau of Animal Welfare within 7 days of each such operation. A model declaration is attached.

In the case of a licensed scientific establishment, the Statutory Declaration may be accompanied by a certificate from the Bureau of Animal Welfare in lieu of a certification by the Chief Executive Officer (or equivalent) of the Municipality. Any dog found to be a persistent barker during its holding and preparation period should not be held for scientific purposes.

Responsibilities of the registered veterinary practitioner

Before agreeing to perform a debarking operation the registered veterinary practitioner should consider the history and physical condition of the dog and arrangements for post-operative care and management. If the welfare of a dog after debarking is likely to be jeopardised because it is not able to attract attention to discomfort or danger, the dog should not be debarked.

The recommended method for debarking

The recommended method for debarking (ventriculocordectomy) is by using a ventral laryngotomy approach as compared to the oral approach. The two primary post-operative complications of either procedure are return to bark and stricture or “webbing” of the glottis. Some return of the bark can be expected after ventriculocordectomy especially with the oral approach. The ventral approach gives more consistent and satisfactory results because it permits better exposure and, generally, more complete removal of the vocal cords.

Owners of dogs who request “debarking” should be advised of the possible complications. The registered veterinary practitioner must be certain that clients understand the risks and limitations of the procedure before accepting the case.

The registered veterinary practitioner should also advise the owner or person-in-charge on the care and management of a debarked dog. It may not be necessary to completely separate a debarked dog from other dogs but care should always be taken soon after the operation or with dogs which are unfamiliar to the debarked dog.

Appendices:

Declaration by chief executive officer (see PDF)

Declaration by registered veterinary officer (see PDF)

Owner statutory declaration for debarking a dog which is a public nuisance (see PDF)

[raz]

Are you kidding me- when were they going to let us know - when the first charges were laid?

Gee they sure snuck that one through on the quiet. When all the arguments were going on with docking everyone said dew claws would be next. That certainly didnt take long. Is Vic the only state to sneak that through so far?

[Are You Serious Jo]

The inspectors will probably start trawling shows and look for dew claws, so everyone had better be able to prove their pups were done at a vets. Don't think it won't happen.

[Steve]

Are you kidding me- when were they going to let us know - when the first charges were laid?

Gee they sure snuck that one through on the quiet. When all the arguments were going on with docking everyone said dew claws would be next. That certainly didnt take long. Is Vic the only state to sneak that through so far?

Hope so but how would you know? They just put through new laws and no one mentions them. If we hadn't of accidentally fallen on this one now we wouldn't have a clue it was illegal.

The whole entire dog world is so over regulated you have to be a Philadelphia to have a hope of keeping up.

Ive seen people do a worse job of cutting dogs toenails than Ive seen of declaws in a new pup - how long before thats a specialist job too? Im serious it sounds stupid but so does the rest of it.

[raz]

Im serious it sounds stupid but so does the rest of it.

I know you're serious, and I totally agree with you.

eta it's going to the pack. This is all so ridiculous.

Edited November 25, 2010 by raz

[SpikesPuppy]

It really is the beginning of the end, isn't it????

I recall a Mini Schnauzer being clipped off and it had rear dew claws.... That went by unnoticed by the groomed until the clippers caught and the blood came they should have been removed at birth.

I'm not opposed to paying a vet to do my puppies but I AM opposed to being forced to do it, potentially exposing my precious babes to disease and the possibility the vet has no real experience in doing it. That is if I can even find a vet..... It could involve a car ride of several hours, not something I wan to do with 3 day olds

My bitch is due in season in a few weeks, I was looking at mating her again but now I'm not so sure.

[Steve]

It really is the beginning of the end, isn't it????

I recall a Mini Schnauzer being clipped off and it had rear dew claws.... That went by unnoticed by the groomed until the clippers caught and the blood came they should have been removed at birth.

I'm not opposed to paying a vet to do my puppies but I AM opposed to being forced to do it, potentially exposing my precious babes to disease and the possibility the vet has no real experience in doing it. That is if I can even find a vet..... It could involve a car ride of several hours, not something I wan to do with 3 day olds

My bitch is due in season in a few weeks, I was looking at mating her again but now I'm not so sure.

Don't give up

[SpikesPuppy]

Thanks, Steve

It's just really disheartening and downright scary.

If anyone is wondering where I found the info about dewclaws, it's on the DPI Vic website, in the Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Dogs, under the 'surgical procedures' section.

I'm still tryin to locate it in the Act but at work and tryingto be sneaky about it.

[Erny]

It really is the beginning of the end, isn't it????

Is it?

Or is it the beginning of dog-owners, trainers and breeders FINALLY all coming together because we have all now been affected in one way or another by these silly, unfair and unjust laws that have made their way in over the recent years, and now we're a bit more ready to work together rather than individually?

[SpikesPuppy]

It really is the beginning of the end, isn't it????

Is it?

Or is it the beginning of dog-owners, trainers and breeders FINALLY all coming together because we have all now been affected in one way or another by these silly, unfair and unjust laws that have made their way in over the recent years, and now we're a bit more ready to work together rather than individually?

I know many breeders who still believe 'it doesn't affect me'. It's disgusting. If you have a small breed that is not extreme in any way, you don't dock, dewclaw or debark, you live in a shire with loose registration requirements (Ie 10 dogs without permit), why would you care?????

(that was tongue in cheek btw).

With the Govt slipping in these regulations left right & centre- right under our noses, it's terrifying.

People are still doing dewclaws themselves or having a trusted friend do them..... Judy should not have been put in this position but I dint think she will be the last person to be 'caught out' unfairly!

Not enough people are steppin up to the plate and joining in the fight. Without the numbers we WILL lose.

I have a proposition for the MDBA - appoint someone from each state to regularly read and revise all relevant legislations so that no one else gets stung.

Yes breeders should know the regs but who would think the legislation could change in the space of 10 months without anyone noticing!

[Steve]

http://www.vic.alp.org.au/news-events-medi...animal-welface/

Do not vote for Labour.

[Steve]

It really is the beginning of the end, isn't it????

Is it?

Or is it the beginning of dog-owners, trainers and breeders FINALLY all coming together because we have all now been affected in one way or another by these silly, unfair and unjust laws that have made their way in over the recent years, and now we're a bit more ready to work together rather than individually?

I know many breeders who still believe 'it doesn't affect me'. It's disgusting. If you have a small breed that is not extreme in any way, you don't dock, dewclaw or debark, you live in a shire with loose registration requirements (Ie 10 dogs without permit), why would you care?????

(that was tongue in cheek btw).

With the Govt slipping in these regulations left right & centre- right under our noses, it's terrifying.

People are still doing dewclaws themselves or having a trusted friend do them..... Judy should not have been put in this position but I dint think she will be the last person to be 'caught out' unfairly!

Not enough people are steppin up to the plate and joining in the fight. Without the numbers we WILL lose.

I have a proposition for the MDBA - appoint someone from each state to regularly read and revise all relevant legislations so that no one else gets stung.

Yes breeders should know the regs but who would think the legislation could change in the space of 10 months without anyone noticing!

About 4 years ago we wrote very nice letters to all ministers for Primary industries and requested that we be updated first hand as soon as any thing which might minutely relate to legislation with dogs was on the table and requested we be seen as a stake holder in dog related issues. We didn't expect they would, however , now they haven't it gives me a chance to belt them around a bit.

[Erny]

http://www.vic.alp.org.au/news-events-medi...animal-welface/

Do not vote for Labour.

Well that's sealed the deal for me to vote for Michelle Frazer (Liberal) in my electorate. And whilst there's no guarantees in the world of politics I must admit I like my first impression. She has undertaken to give an ear to our concerns over our laws and to do what she can to help and represent us.

Say No to Labor.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Erny

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

http://new.dpi.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pd...37/Dog-code.pdf

Steve,

According to the date in the PDF, this was released in the leadup to the gazetting of the new docking laws when we were all closely observing things but we didn't come across this PDF.

Are those minimum standards for dewclaws enforceable under POCTA and/or DFNAA ? (If so, by which clauses?).

CC

[Steve]

http://new.dpi.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pd...37/Dog-code.pdf

Steve,

According to the date in the PDF, this was released in the leadup to the gazetting of the new docking laws when we were all closely observing things but we didn't come across this PDF.

Are those minimum standards for dewclaws enforceable under POCTA and/or DFNAA ? (If so, by which clauses?).

CC

Sorry - right now I cant answer - Last night was the first Id heard of it. Its listed as a standard so its compulsory either way and if the RSPCA are given police powers for both POCTA and DFNAA both will be policed the same way anyway.

Its certainly a concern that its been around for so long and no one had a clue.

[Souff]

Since when can we not remove dewclaws from pups???? I thought we were still allowed to..... Have I missed something?

No, you have missed nothing, as far aw I know anywho.

But, there are those receptionists at some vet surgeries will tell you "We dont remove dewclaws on pups here".

They say it as a form of mutilation and this is the general feeling that is passed on to new vet nursing recruits I am told.

The vets themselves WILL do it, 9 times out of 10.

It is pathetic when you have to get past the receptionist and ask the vet but that is the way it is.

I suppose they feel that if they keep up their PETA mantra and keep on bullying people out of having it done, most people will THINK there is a law against it, when there is not.

Souff

Unfortunately, it looks like I DID miss something :D Under the DPI (Vic) regulations, dewclaws may only be removed by a veterinarian. So at least we can still do it, but..... now to find a vet who will as you say, do it and be, who KNOWS how to do it.

Gonna say here and now, if there is anyone in Victoria who hasn't read the DPI website and all publications/links relating to dogs & cats in Victoria - do it as soon as you can and take notes because any one of us could be next

Geez Spikes, I am really sorry, I forgot you resided in the state of no return.

Is it something in the water down there?

Your bureaucrats and politicians are really something else!

Get out while you still can, I say!

I suppose you have to be grateful that the vets are still allowed to remove dewclaws ..... I actually don't mind the vets doing it .... but to find the vets who can still do it, and do it well, you have to first get past the Animal Libber know-it-all receptionists who have been brainwashed into thinking that we are mutilating our beautiful puppies As if!

Souff

[SilverHaze]

We had a vet do the dew claws on our last litter - cleanly done and cauterized (not stitched). Very quickly done - and healed wonderfully. Happy to let anyone know who it was if they are looking for a vet in melbourne.

[Steve]

We had a vet do the dew claws on our last litter - cleanly done and cauterized (not stitched). Very quickly done - and healed wonderfully. Happy to let anyone know who it was if they are looking for a vet in melbourne.

How much?