Judy Gard - All Done

[Erny]

If there is rules and regulations then shouldnt those who know the show and breeding world lead by example?

It's ok Bartok - I understand your question was well intended and a genuine thought.

Thing is, this "law" seemed to sneak its way through and was unknown by many people, including those in the breeding and show fraternity. I don't believe that even Dogs Victoria passed the information on to its members, but someone might correct me on that notion.

So the first that it was known to many was when Judy got haulled over the coals for this technicality.

The very wrong of it is also that it is contained under "Animal Welfare". Exhibiting a debarked dog -vs- not exhibiting a debarked dog has nothing to do with welfare, so putting a law that relates to whether you're allowed to exhibit your dog or not under the heading "Animal Welfare" is certainly misleading (would fraudulent be too strong a word?)

If you are not allowed to exhibit dogs that are debarked, and if Dogs Victoria knew of the law (which I believe they did), then why wasn't it put up as one of Dogs Victoria's laws and announced to all and sundry at the time the law went through.

Or more particularly, why didn't Dogs Victoria object to the law being passed before it became law?

Edited November 23, 2010 by Erny

[raz]

I am not a breeder or a show person, but it is just my thoughts of someone

on the outside looking in. I may be way off base.

I'm not a breeder or a show person either but what happened was, she was dobbed in for having her dogs debarked in NSW and then shown in Victoria. The charges were that the dogs were shown, not that they were debarked. Pretty insane, isnt it. That's why no one understands it. It wasnt a cruelty matter but a political matter. She wasnt cruel to the dogs - she simply exhibited them after they'd been debarked in another state.

[SpikesPuppy]

Erny- you are correct. DOGS Vic did NOTHING to inform it's members of this new legislation, it was only after Judy was caught out that it garnered a mention in the gazette.

Bartok- look at the wording of the Debarking legislation on the DPI website, it may help you understand a bit better

People were also up in arms about the way the whole thing went down and the fact that the dogs who were in excellent condition and AT NO RISK (as they had already been 'done') were seized. Something I'm still not convinced was done legally (reading the DPI website again..... There are procedures that need to be followed for the seizure of animals).

I agree that breeders need to do the right thing but in all honesty, who would have thought that we could not have a procedure done legally in another state and then be charged with a criminal offense for exhibiting said dog in the state of Voctoria?? Remember that according to this legislation, NO DOG that has ever resided in Victoria and is debarked in a way that is NOTAPPROVED in Victoria (even if it's done in accordance with that state or countries legislations or if it is sold to a new owner etc) it is a criminal offense to exhibit it. Who would have thought that would be the case?? I certainly didn't.....

For example if I sell a puppy to New South Wales and it is debarked in accordance with their legislation, that dog is not able to be exhibited at our state specialty.

Hope this helps clear it up?? I completely get where you are coming from BTW.

[Steve]

If in fact that the RSPCA did go to CAR to get numbers thats not part of their brief for access to that information and you should be more worried about that than whether or not she was breeding more than SOMEONE says she should!

Those dogs were passed with a bloody clean bill of health and for the record the RSPCA went after the show catelouges not pedigrees .

If ANYONE is able to just dig into the microchip registry - get numbers and decide its too many and make them a bloody target then I have just entered my detals as breeder on the data base for the last time. In future my puppies will go out in the new owners name and I encourage all breeders to do the same.

I've been doing that from the first litter I've bred. Every pup that is sold before chipping at eight weeks or whenever I do it, is chipped in the new owners names. All they need do is sign the form for me and it's done.

Only those that are staying are chipped in my name.

Naturally to become one of the new breed of certified breeders according to dogs nsw, you will have to chip before rego and include the number on the application to register. That puts an end to the above

legally we cant chip the dog into the new owners name unless the owner is present when its getting chipped. So if you are a chipper or the owner is with th epup when its getting done the owner can sign as the owner. In my case I am not a chipper and my pups are chipped at 6 weeks and I often never meet the owner let alone take them to the vet with me to have them chipped.

[Steve]

The only way anyone could know if the RSPCA took info fromthe data base is if the RSPCA told them. Thats unlikely and who cares anyway?

[Souff]

Since when can we not remove dewclaws from pups???? I thought we were still allowed to..... Have I missed something?

No, you have missed nothing, as far aw I know anywho.

But, there are those receptionists at some vet surgeries will tell you "We dont remove dewclaws on pups here".

They say it as a form of mutilation and this is the general feeling that is passed on to new vet nursing recruits I am told.

The vets themselves WILL do it, 9 times out of 10.

It is pathetic when you have to get past the receptionist and ask the vet but that is the way it is.

I suppose they feel that if they keep up their PETA mantra and keep on bullying people out of having it done, most people will THINK there is a law against it, when there is not.

Souff

[SpikesPuppy]

Since when can we not remove dewclaws from pups???? I thought we were still allowed to..... Have I missed something?

No, you have missed nothing, as far aw I know anywho.

But, there are those receptionists at some vet surgeries will tell you "We dont remove dewclaws on pups here".

They say it as a form of mutilation and this is the general feeling that is passed on to new vet nursing recruits I am told.

The vets themselves WILL do it, 9 times out of 10.

It is pathetic when you have to get past the receptionist and ask the vet but that is the way it is.

I suppose they feel that if they keep up their PETA mantra and keep on bullying people out of having it done, most people will THINK there is a law against it, when there is not.

Souff

Unfortunately, it looks like I DID miss something Under the DPI (Vic) regulations, dewclaws may only be removed by a veterinarian. So at least we can still do it, but..... now to find a vet who will as you say, do it and be, who KNOWS how to do it.

Gonna say here and now, if there is anyone in Victoria who hasn't read the DPI website and all publications/links relating to dogs & cats in Victoria - do it as soon as you can and take notes because any one of us could be next

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

VicDogs, the Victorian Government, and RSPCA Victoria, and that lowlife vet ......... just go away and hang your heads in shame .... you are all by far just too UN-Australian.

Souff

Hey Souff, every paid up member of the VCA is effectively "VicDogs" including Judy Gard.

This stunt was the aftermath of the cave-in on tail docking in 2004, and in effect had little to do with the main issues of the case.

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

Are there advantages to a (for example) NSW CC Membership by comparison to a (for example) Queensland CC Membership?

Don't think what they once described as "democracy" has got to Queensland yet - that is, the controlling body is run by the Ag Soc. Hence they suggest dumb things that contradict ANKC every so often.

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

Are interstate CC Members allowed to utilise the Victorian KCC grounds (including the exercise yards)?

Yes. No camping except on NYE.

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

I will be writing a message or two to both the Liberal and Labor Parties on the back of my ballot paper at the State Elections next Saturday. It won't be rude, but it will indicate how disillusioned I am and how futile they are.

I have it on good authority that this will NOT render my vote invalid/informal.

Don't bother - it may get seen by a VEC counter or a scrutineer, but that's it. Write to your Leader newspaper instead!

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

I don't believe that even Dogs Victoria passed the information on to its members, but someone might correct me on that notion.

The DPI flyer was sent out in VicDog to each member.

The whole focus of the dog world was on the alterations to the docking arrangements, shifting from regulation to legislation and altering the definition of docking. Everyone who received the flyer would have immediately thought it was about docking and not read on.

Edited November 24, 2010 by CaptainCourageous

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

If there is rules and regulations then shouldnt those who know the show and breeding world lead by example?

What i mean is. We get annoyed at BYB and puppy farms etc and if they see that a "registered breeder" got away

with an illegal procedure then no reason why they can't. Regardless of how small it may have been or even if was

done with the best intentions. All they would see is that someone else got away with it so why can't they.

There is enough BYB and puppy farms out there with enough bad procedures as it is

Since at least the 1990s Judy used de-barking as a means to manage her kennel, so as not to cause offence to her neighbours and/or her Council. She must have regarded de-barking as acceptable.

My estimation (which I'm happy for anyone else to shed light on) is that over time rules about eligibility for de-barking altered in Victoria and that offence to neighbour was a pre-requisite. In other words it was restricted to be a reactive process rather than a proactive process. Dog owners seeking de-barking as a prevention to disrupting neighbours rather than as a reaction to disruption already occuring may have found it convenient to travel to NSW to have the procedure done there. At that stage there may have been no Victorian law preventing this.

What then seems to have flown under the radar of anyone not closely interested in the changed docking laws was something the lawmakers slipped into the same legislation, making the NSW trips to be illegitimate debarking events and creating an offence of exhibiting an illegitimately debarked dog.

Bartok, what's happened here appears to be alterations to law catching up on particular long-held animal management practices, rather than a breeder setting out to breach the law.

[Erny]

I will be writing a message or two to both the Liberal and Labor Parties on the back of my ballot paper at the State Elections next Saturday. It won't be rude, but it will indicate how disillusioned I am and how futile they are.

I have it on good authority that this will NOT render my vote invalid/informal.

Don't bother - it may get seen by a VEC counter or a scrutineer, but that's it. Write to your Leader newspaper instead!

Yeah - I get that. It was just a knee jerk "what else can I do" reaction in the face of despair of the Parliamentary Parties.

[Erny]

Are interstate CC Members allowed to utilise the Victorian KCC grounds (including the exercise yards)?

Yes. No camping except on NYE.

Thank you .

[Steve]

Since when can we not remove dewclaws from pups???? I thought we were still allowed to..... Have I missed something?

No, you have missed nothing, as far aw I know anywho.

But, there are those receptionists at some vet surgeries will tell you "We dont remove dewclaws on pups here".

They say it as a form of mutilation and this is the general feeling that is passed on to new vet nursing recruits I am told.

The vets themselves WILL do it, 9 times out of 10.

It is pathetic when you have to get past the receptionist and ask the vet but that is the way it is.

I suppose they feel that if they keep up their PETA mantra and keep on bullying people out of having it done, most people will THINK there is a law against it, when there is not.

Souff

Unfortunately, it looks like I DID miss something Under the DPI (Vic) regulations, dewclaws may only be removed by a veterinarian. So at least we can still do it, but..... now to find a vet who will as you say, do it and be, who KNOWS how to do it.

Gonna say here and now, if there is anyone in Victoria who hasn't read the DPI website and all publications/links relating to dogs & cats in Victoria - do it as soon as you can and take notes because any one of us could be next

Are you kidding me- when were they going to let us know - when the first charges were laid?

[Erny]

Under the DPI (Vic) regulations, dewclaws may only be removed by a veterinarian.

Are you kidding me- when were they going to let us know - when the first charges were laid?

I didn't know that dew claws could or were removed any other way, other than by a veterinarian.

[Steve]

Vets are no good - they hurt them.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Steve

[Golden Rules]

If there is rules and regulations then shouldnt those who know the show and breeding world lead by example?

What i mean is. We get annoyed at BYB and puppy farms etc and if they see that a "registered breeder" got away

with an illegal procedure then no reason why they can't. Regardless of how small it may have been or even if was

done with the best intentions. All they would see is that someone else got away with it so why can't they.

There is enough BYB and puppy farms out there with enough bad procedures as it is

Since at least the 1990s Judy used de-barking as a means to manage her kennel, so as not to cause offence to her neighbours and/or her Council. She must have regarded de-barking as acceptable.

My estimation (which I'm happy for anyone else to shed light on) is that over time rules about eligibility for de-barking altered in Victoria and that offence to neighbour was a pre-requisite. In other words it was restricted to be a reactive process rather than a proactive process. Dog owners seeking de-barking as a prevention to disrupting neighbours rather than as a reaction to disruption already occuring may have found it convenient to travel to NSW to have the procedure done there. At that stage there may have been no Victorian law preventing this.

What then seems to have flown under the radar of anyone not closely interested in the changed docking laws was something the lawmakers slipped into the same legislation, making the NSW trips to be illegitimate debarking events and creating an offence of exhibiting an illegitimately debarked dog.

Bartok, what's happened here appears to be alterations to law catching up on particular long-held animal management practices, rather than a breeder setting out to breach the law.

Thank you CC, this has been the most enlightening post regarding this whole saga and makes sense of many things.

[SpikesPuppy]

Since when can we not remove dewclaws from pups???? I thought we were still allowed to..... Have I missed something?

No, you have missed nothing, as far aw I know anywho.

But, there are those receptionists at some vet surgeries will tell you "We dont remove dewclaws on pups here".

They say it as a form of mutilation and this is the general feeling that is passed on to new vet nursing recruits I am told.

The vets themselves WILL do it, 9 times out of 10.

It is pathetic when you have to get past the receptionist and ask the vet but that is the way it is.

I suppose they feel that if they keep up their PETA mantra and keep on bullying people out of having it done, most people will THINK there is a law against it, when there is not.

Souff

Unfortunately, it looks like I DID miss something Under the DPI (Vic) regulations, dewclaws may only be removed by a veterinarian. So at least we can still do it, but..... now to find a vet who will as you say, do it and be, who KNOWS how to do it.

Gonna say here and now, if there is anyone in Victoria who hasn't read the DPI website and all publications/links relating to dogs & cats in Victoria - do it as soon as you can and take notes because any one of us could be next

Are you kidding me- when were they going to let us know - when the first charges were laid?

No fricken' idea! I will find the exact legislation tomorrow (if you haven't already, I'm about to go to bed). I had to read and re-read as when I had my litter I checked and triple checked what the legislation was.

Definitely something that NEEDS to be out there so that people know.

Erny- I would rather trust a breeder with hands on experience over a clinically trained veterinarian to touch my babies any day. Not to mention the risk that is incurred taking the litter to a vet clinic to be done.

One thing I am still unclear on is, can we still have our dogs debarked interstate as long as we don't exhibit in Victoria?