sheena Posted November 26, 2010 Share Posted November 26, 2010 This sound a bit like what my girl was like, & we are on a farm. We have had border collies before, but this one certainly was different & certainly knew how to push our buttons. If a cow had a go at her she would bite it on the nose...if she got hit by the electric fence, then she would turn around & bark at it....if the chook stopped running, she would poke at it till it took off again. She was continously ripping my shoulder & we had to take a supply of bandaids to agility training each week. If it's any consolation, with patient training, especially in recall & "leave it" she grew out of it, almost overnight, when she got to about the age of 18 months. A word of warning if using an E collar, make sure you use it as soon as she looks at the horse, chook, cat etc. Then praise & reward her immediately when she takes her eyes off the prey & turns to look at you. Don't distract her in any way if she is close to the horse, because she will turn to look at you & get kicked fair in the head. I wouldn't be using a recall, when she eyes the cat, I would be using a loud growl....like UGH or a "leave it" command. She could be getting confused & think that when she looks at the cat, you call her name, she chases cat...job done...arn't I a good girl. Hang in there,....you will end up with a great dog with lots of drive & a personality all her own..... It does get better :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 26, 2010 Share Posted November 26, 2010 (edited) I think at this point I would do one of 2 things: sell her to the cattle home or take her to someones property for the weekend & work the crap out of her. By the end of it, you'd have a much better idea of whether she is worth putting effort into. Problem is...she's got bloody big boots to fill. If she's not going to going anywhere near filling them, better to spend your time & effort on a dog who will. Just thought of a third option! Definitely the best one! Sell Bess & breed Abby AND make sure there's a puppy for me! Edited November 27, 2010 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Just out of curiosity...& the rest of you will think this question is really mad..(well that's OK, just don't tell me).....but has this particular border collie got pricked ears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 The only way to keep her out of the horse paddock is to keep her on a lead. (which she is 99% of the time) That is not really going to help her though as on the lead she is good and well mannered. Paddocks are only electric tape so it is quite easy for the dogs to go under etc and the sheep etc. Unfortunately for her she may have to get kicked or chased a few more times. Problem is kicking doesn't put her off and chasing just teaches her bad habits for a sheepdog as well as increases her drive and absession to control it. We do NILIF and have done for a while to try to help her bond and have started TOT for now. A gruff voice just makes her go from 100% obsessed to 300% in a split second so raising voice or lower tones just totally fires her up beyond any reasoning at all. Sheena she is learning a stop on the lead but without distractions. Once she has got her sights set on something she will not look at me. There is no way she will give eye contact when stock is around. Even if you drag her away from the stock or give her a helping hand with ecollar or poly pipe or block her she will not look at me at all. She may be with you in body but her brain is still somewhere else. Vickie, Good suggestion. 3rd option is good I agree. PS sheena, her ears aren't pricked. If she makes me pull them too many times though they may prick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Can't you put mesh up and form a house paddock? That is what I did. No way would Poppy give me focus either in a stop but she does stop. We had an American lady out doing some herding training and she was using a bag on a stick to get the dogs to yield out and do nice flanks. She tried it with Poppy. Poppy totally ignored the bag even when it was applied to her head as she had the sheep in her eye and that was that. I had trouble with HT because of the not wanting to leave the sheep. After that she seemed to know the aim was to pen and once they were penned she was 'job done and happy'. She does now recall off but that has taken about 2 years. The pup sounds like it is going to be brilliant but lots of brilliant dogs aren't super fun to live with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 but lots of brilliant dogs aren't super fun to live with. *nods* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Keeping her confined forever isn't an option because she needs to learn the lesson, not for me to remodel my whole lifestyle or property around her. Thank you! It's very rare that I read these posts, I feel exactly the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 No problem Clyde. The way I see it, dogs are supposed to enhance our lives and bring us pleasure..... not provide us with a whole new way to spend money or time to suit 1 little dog because it won't listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Erny's suggestion of Triangle of Temptation is great, the principle with dogs like this really has to be "to get the thing you really want, you have to settle down and give me this first" which is no different to any other dog, except you have to fully indoctrinate these dogs so that it becomes part of everything they do. Sue Ailsby tells this story of her Giant Schnauzer when she was introduced to sheep, it's a good read and I'm guessing you will be able to relate - http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Writ...&Sheep.html Sue begins all dogs with "doggy zen" which is similar to TOT, a good starting point to imprint the basic idea on the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 I read a book last year...a true story called "A Good Dog" by Jon Katz. It was about a border collie that he got from a rescue centre & it was a real way out of control, terror (sounds a lot like your dog). The first problem he had with it was that it loved to "round up" school buses & he was always being called down to the school to rescue the kids from the bus..eventually falling foul of the law. To cut a long story short, he thought he would try sheep herding with it....but no way could he control his dog (dog had a ball). He called in several experts to help with this dog & eventually one suggested that he change the dog's name, which he did & . & the dog went on to win trials & all sorts of things. It was a lovely true story, but like all those storys it had a sad ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussienot Posted November 29, 2010 Share Posted November 29, 2010 (edited) You are using terms like "she thinks she is the boss" and "learn some respect". If you think about training as a power struggle, and view her actions as disobedience which must be stopped, you are bound to fail with her. She sounds like a high spirited, hard dog. She can probably withstand any punishment you hand out, and it won't affect her behaviour one bit. With a high spirited animal if you constantly crack down, you will get nothing but rebellion. To create a working partner, there will need to be respect and understanding from both team members. You can be the boss and she can be the employee, but both members of the team need to be working from the same playbook. So, you need to find some way to motivate her to work with you. Another vote for talking to k9 pro to help you find what motivators work. Training in drive will do this. The triangle of temptation is a great way to start. Eventually work the distraction of horses into the meal time routine. It will be a lot of work, and you may want to think how much you want to invest in your relationship with her. She may turn into your best working dog, but it won't be easy. Edited November 29, 2010 by Aussienot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 No problem Clyde.The way I see it, dogs are supposed to enhance our lives and bring us pleasure..... not provide us with a whole new way to spend money or time to suit 1 little dog because it won't listen. Interesting her mother was similar, until "broken". Can be explain broken in herding training please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted December 4, 2010 Author Share Posted December 4, 2010 Lablover..When she said it she said she had to scruff her to no end, she bit the dog on the ear (she heard it was effective), she had pinned it to the ground heaps. This was in order to "break" her dominance and to make her understand that she had to listen. It is not really a herding term. I have no idea what herding people to to train their dogs as I am not involved in herding. I compete in 3 sheep trials which have totally different instinct requirements and different rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted December 8, 2010 Author Share Posted December 8, 2010 Well thanks everyone for their advice over the last little while. After trying a range of other stuff, she still doesn't have the right temperament to make a good working dog partner. The breeder (who always thought she was the pick of the litter for some strange reason) took her for a few days to trial her. She brought her back to me as well. Said she doesn't have the time to put in as she will need way too much work. She also agreed that she would never make a reliable trial dog. Soooooo........... I have sold her to someone else to try as a cattle trial dog. He has also got someone interested in just a working farm dog if she doesn't fit in with him either. He wants a well bred BC bitch for his working dog team. So she will be heading off to Scone tomorrow for a new start in life. Hopefully she will make the most of it and fit in with his plans. Now to search for a replacement to start training for the trials starting up in March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 Dogs are for life and not just for Christmas Dasha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 And isn't this pup lucky she started hers with Dasha, otherwise she would undoubtedly have been shot by now. A dog like this is not a dog you can keep around like a spare wheel for 15 years. Far better that she's going somewhere that will give her the solid work she so desperately needs and will thrive on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 Dogs are for life and not just for Christmas Dasha Not if they are meant to do a particular job in life ,and are unsuited to that job! Working dogs are often moved around until a place is found which suits ..we have 2 here who we were given because they didn't fit in their original places ..and have been happily with us for some years now . I like Vickie's comment A dog like this is not a dog you can keep around like a spare wheel for 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 (edited) As I was reading this thread I was thinking at any stage had she been checked out by a vet for any physiological problems as she had been kicked in the head quite severely a few times? Edited December 8, 2010 by luvsdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussienot Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 It can't have been an easy decision, but sounds like you made the best choice for both. Trying to put a square peg into a round hole is always a tough job. Hopefully, she will find someplace where she fits and can work happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 (edited) She spunds like a bitch we had a few years ago.. we got her as she was due to be shot.. her owner could not control her ... she wouldn't listen, chased roos, and was tough and strong.... he had paid a small fortune for her from a breeder well known for providing good dogs. She took a lot of work.. and not all of it gentle , either ... and lived happily with us for the next 11 years. Bo ended up being a very useful and tireless worker in certain jobs.. she was too forceful to use in a lot of situations, but perfect for others. She would fight, she was often bowled over by sheep , she had many days when she 'went on strike' ...but she certainly gave her all when she had a job she liked Edited December 8, 2010 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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