Arrogant, Dominant, Feisty

[dasha]

Ok guys, I am after some advice as I am at my wits end.

I have a 51/2 month old Working Border collie pup that is really starting to push my buttons.

When away from home she is good (unless there is sheep or horses or cats). She will recall, follow me around, sometimes play but not too interactive. She is usually scanning the horizon at all times for something that resembles horses or sheep or cats to run off to.

She seems to have a VERY high pain threshhold which prevents her from learning from bad experinces...In fact the more it hurts or could hurt, she gets more intense and goes harder.

She bites the cat on the face to make it run so she can chase it, she bites the horses back legs to make it kick so she can bite it again. When she is doing her thing, she COMPLETELY shuts me out. No respect at all.

She has been on a long lead for ages (and has ripped my jeans loop when tied to belt, nearly broke my wrist, wrenched my shoulder, heaps minor rope burns) all to get to the horse. She has been kicked fair in the forehead by one horse and all she wanted to do was get back at it for kicking her(even though she couldn't see out of one eye).

She does not give ground to people.If you walk into her she will sqare up. If you clap your hands or make any sudden sounds to try to scare her or chase her she comes back harder. Or if you raise your voice, she goes about doing her thing harder and faster.

I am looking for any tips of any kind to get her to listen to me as her leader and show respect. I have been told her mother was also an extremely difficult dog to start but once you break her she was ok.

But I don't think their meaning of break and what I sometimes want to do to this thing is the same meaning...

[Erny]

I think I would be inclined to address this dog's training with the use of an e-collar (negative reinforcement/low stim methodology). You're in NSW so Steve at K9 Pro would be the person to contact. Use of the e-collar is not about pain. It is about a strong aversive annoyance and teaching the dog (a) that it has the ability to control the annoyance and (b) HOW to control the annoyance. I think your dog would likely understand this training. Use of this tool in this way also enhances your bond and leadership with the dog.

I'd also implement (straight away) "The Triangle of Temptation" exercise/program. Refer the pinned section at the top of the Training Forum. Put there also by Steve at K9 Pro. Excellent program.

It sounds to me that regardless of what you might be thinking, she's got you (and probably everyone else) figured. The mere fact that you will move (in an attempt to let her know she doesn't control you) is what she wants you to do, so that she can then control that movement. So in effect, she is getting you to do what she wants. She's controlling you by getting you to try to control her, by getting you to react.

I do not like/enjoy hearing the word "break" when it comes to animals. It needs to be taken in context though, just as those "nasty" words like dominance, leadership and punishment do. But IMO the idea of "breaking" (usually accompanied by the word "spirit") is not the ideal of training and in fact should be the furthest from what we want to achieve.

You use words such as "get back at it"; "doesn't give ground to people"; "squaring up"; "comes back harder"; "doing her thing harder and faster". This dog's behaviour needs to be channelled in another direction and very quickly, if my impression of the contents of your post is anything to go by and hence I'd reiterate my suggestion for you to get in contact with Steve at K9 Pro, as soon as possible. This behaviour, from a 5.5 mo dog - I expect it is going to become even more difficult as the dog reaches 6, 7, 8, 10, 12 and 14 months of age, and again as she nears 2yo.

What do you think your relationship with this girl is like?

ETA: What training methods have you tried/implemented with her to date?

Edited November 18, 2010 by Erny

[Vickie]

I'll take her!

Oh wait....I already offered that

[poodlefan]

She bites the cat on the face to make it run so she can chase it, she bites the horses back legs to make it kick so she can bite it again.

I'd not be allowing her close enough to either animal to trigger what is clearly pretty full on prey drive.

What training have you actually done with her? Did you train sit, drop, recall etc? This kind of drive unfocussed and untrained will probably escalate.

Sounds like far too much dog for a non-working, non-sports home to me

[Kavik]

After having gone to the Susan Garrett seminar, I think this pup would be a great one to use her program on!

[Ons]

I had a very dominant arrogant golden retriever

2 lessons from Steve at K9 Force, alot of hard work from me and him I now have a wonderful respectful boy

So I am another big advocate to take her to Steve at K9 Force

[aussielover]

I would not let her around horses or livestock AT ALL. If you are going be around them, keep her at home. You are risking her life if you do take her with you.

I think you should seek professional help and get the dog assessed asap. Why would you want to "break" her? surely you mean TRAIN her???

Perhaps this is not the dog for a pet home...Personally I don't see the point of getting a working line BC unless you are going to actually "work" them whether that be on the farm or in dog sports.

Also look at how much exercise and mental stimulation she is getting. A working BC would need upwards of 2hrs exercise a DAY imo, even the puppies need at least an hour.

Can you get her to chase balls as this is a great way to exercise working dogs and gives them a "job" to do.

[Vickie]

She is in a working home.

Dasha has 3 other working line dogs at home who are impeccably behaved. She trains & competes with her dogs in 3 sheep trials & does a bloody good job of it. This pup is not mature enough to go into full training right now. The reality is that once that training starts, most of the lessons she needs to learn, she will. It is just a matter of how to deal with her in the meantime.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Vickie

[persephone]

Contact Steve at K9pro

[poodlefan]

She is in a working home.

Dasha has 3 other working line dogs at home who are impeccably behaved. She trains & competes with her dogs in 3 sheep trials & does a bloody good job of it. This pup is not mature enough to go into full training right now. The reality is that once that training starts, most of the lessons she needs to learn, she will. It is just a matter of how to deal with her in the meantime.

So the pup is being trained though? In something?

[JulesP]

How to deal with the pup without squashing the herding drive is a tricky one. I think a 3 sheep trainer would be better to talk to in this case.

[Jeff Jones]

I would take her in a heartbeat if you were talking about a German Shepherd. I would contact K9 Force as other posters have recommended.

[55chevy]

I would take her in a heartbeat if you were talking about a German Shepherd. :D

Just thinking exactly that Jeff :D

[Nekhbet]

LOL I was wondering Jeff if she had short hair and tan with black face and large radar ears ... send her to me :D

[dasha]

Thanks for the tips.

Jeff Jones...Don't worry if she was a shep I would send her there. Could I paint her to look like one?

Easy to say not to let her around horses etc but we live on 5 acres with horses, cats, sheep etc so basically she needs to learn to do as she is told.

As it is she has been limited to a long lead, chain or crate for the last month to try to get some form of control, respect from her.

She is kept seperate to other dogs, she only gets fed from my hand and that is only after doing something I ask of her (Sit, stop, stay, drop, recall etc) and giving me eye contact to acknowledge me. She does not play with balls, has no interest in following them or retrieving them. In fact she is not very interactive at all. Just focussed on looking for the horse or cat.

Keeping her confined forever isn't an option because she needs to learn the lesson, not for me to remodel my whole lifestyle or property around her.

She has already had some lessons with an e-collar (and yes it was with a professional trainer). The question is how to get through to a dog that has already had extreme negative association (kick by horse, pressure washer in face and ear- which she did herself, e-collar stimulation,) with a behaviour but still wants to do the behaviour knowing what the result will be.

Aussielover I would like to TRAIN her rather than break her. That would be ideal. The thing is sheepdog trialling is a team sport and she needs to follow a lot of repetitive commands later in lilfe. If she isn't interested in being a team player then she may have to go work on a farm or something and I will get a more natural willing team player. She can work stock again at 8 months which is why she needs to learn how to be a partner before she is let loose on stock to take control.She is no good to anyone if she thinks she is the boss.

Erny thanks for the advice too. I will look into some things also.

Vickie, thanks for your positive comments and support

Edited November 19, 2010 by dasha

[Erny]

She has already had some lessons with an e-collar (and yes it was with a professional trainer). The question is how to get through to a dog that has already had extreme negative association (kick by horse, pressure washer in face and ear- which she did herself, e-collar stimulation) with a behaviour but still wants to do the behaviour knowing what the result will be.

Was the e-collar used as a positive punishment, or was it used with negative reinforcement training principals? I find that using the negative reinforcement principal tends to teach a conditioned response. Your dog's drive sounds like it is far too high for a P+ to be effective. The e-collar training that I do starts off outside the presence of the stimuli that puts a dog into drive - the distraction intensity works up from there.

Erny thanks for the advice too. I will look into some things also.

That's ok - I truly do hope you will contact Steve at K9 Pro. Sounds to me that this dog needs some really serious help, as do you. It also sounds as though this dog has so much potential, if only its drive can be properly harnessed. Drive work along with the use of the e-collar in the fashion I have suggested would go well hand in hand.

Good luck and do please let us know what you decide on doing .

[jesomil]

Just a thought, do you always interact with her in highly stimulating environments?

It sounds like she is very switched onto stock and movement and that overrides you. Dogs can take some pretty harsh corrections when in drive and not have much affect.

What about if you spent some good quality time with her where there is only you. Like take her to a deserted park and train her there. Take her inside with you sometimes and tie her to the chair while you watch tv, train her in your loungeroom where there are no other distractions. It might help develop a bond so she doesnt just view you as the discipline giver. She needs to discover you as a friend, playmate and boss.

You need to have her respect away from distraction before you can expect anything with distraction.

ETA, I know there is alot more needed than what I suggested but it might help in some areas.

Edited November 19, 2010 by jesomil

[Jeff Jones]

Jeff Jones...Don't worry if she was a shep I would send her there. Could I paint her to look like one?

Paint her black and I will tell everyone she is a miniature working line German Shepherd.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Jeff Jones

[dasha]

Well we have been away for a bit and as usual I took her with me. To be honest, when we were away she was well behaved. She didn't chase any guinea fowl or cattle at the place we stayed. It may have helped that when she got too confident or naughty around this place, the pack (approx 15) of Mini Foxies and a range of other farm dogs would get stuck into her like ants attacking something and she would have to come to me for help.

She recalled each time I called (which is usual except around sheep,cats,horses) and was very behaved especially for a pup.

Then we got home. I let her out of the car and we walked around to the back of the house and she followed me around as usual. She spotted the cat............ I called her.....she started to come back as cat walked towards pool fence to get behind it..................... just before cat could reach fence and I could not reach her............she looked back at cat......then me...................and raced to grab cat before he could get through the fence. When he was through she then comes running happily back like she has just done a nice recall for me. Then repeats same for horse.

I took her with me the next day to pick up my sheep so I let her out with the other dog to bring the sheep in to draft mine off. SHe did a good job (although a bit quick) but she isn't broken in yet so can't expect anymore. As usual she wouldn't come off the sheep so had to do usual block and chase dance till she finally gives in.

Got home, put her back on long string for general daily things now as she still wants to bite the horse to make it run so she can chase it. Also to keep her from the cat...............

I now have a sore arm where it is possible I have ripped tendon joining bone when she hits the end of long rope multiple times at high speed..................She sure packs a punch for a little dog.

Perhaps it is time for a return of the collar for training at home. Or the person that wants to buy her for a cattle dog may get a call...................... Still undecided. SHe has days of being well behaved (but still not bonded) and days of making my blood boil.

[JulesP]

I really would be keeping her out of the horse paddock.

I wouldn't be calling her at all if I saw the cat. You are just reinforcing that she can get away with not coming. I would only be calling her if I was prepared to use the collar.

Does she have a stop on her yet? The stop/drop/sit command often seems to penetrate the brain more than a come command. Try stopping her and then going and retrieving her.

My Poppy was totally fixated on sheep in the beginning. She would pretty much go into a trance. And no way would she leave those sheep to do a recall. She would happily drop though and I could go get her. Now with a bit of time on sheep she does recall off them.

Are you doing all your NILF stuff and TOT (at the top of this page) is really good too. If mine get cheeky a bit of TOT and they are usually back in place.