New Puppy But Conflicting Behaviour From Resident Dog

[giraffez]

I just got my new puppy. My current dog is 2 years old and when he saw the puppy at first there were quite a bit of growling and barking. However, that calmed down after about an hour and my current dog became more accepting to the point where he would let the puppy play with his toys and drink from his water bowl. He is still on alert, if there is any fast movement from the puppy, he would chase him down and growl a bit but no real aggression

Anyway, for nearly 2 days it has been like this so I sense that the pair should be ok over time. However, this late afternoon, the puppy wanted to play and at once stage barked once at the older dog and made a pouncing movement, and from then on, the older dog barked at the pup and tried to chase him down - there has been a lot of growling from the older dog. It started off less frequent but as night drew, as soon as the older dog saw the pup, he wants to growl at him. I have since seperated the two because i don't want things to get out of hand. I've read that I should not intervene and let them fight it out but the puppy is small and the older dog is growling and pouncing around. Its a complete turn over of behaviour from my older dog compared to 24 hours ago.... i'm not sure whether he really wants to hurt the puppy or not or whether he is just trying to show him who is boss. I'm a bit worried.... he was fine up till this afternoon.

What should i do? I'm really worried he won't accept the puppy now.

Edited November 18, 2010 by giraffez

[harley]

How were they first introduced?

I think it is a good idea that you have separated them for now.

[giraffez]

How were they first introduced?

I think it is a good idea that you have separated them for now.

The older dog on the leash and I just walked out with him and make it appear as though he found the puppy.

Both are asleep now, tomorrows either going to be a good day or a terrible one.

[parrotpea]

In the morning can you put them both on a lead, and you have your older dog and keep him distracted with treats toys, etc, make a big fuss of him and ignore the puppy. Have the puppy in another room to start with if need be, then, while he;s distracted and happy move closer to pup. You might need to keep them separate and then do the on-lead thing, giving your older dog heaps of attention until ha makes the connection that puppy's presence=lots of attention and treats from Mum.

I would also try keeping the pup confined in a puppy pen or crate(until our older dog accepts it anyway), because him having run of the house (and toys, bowlsetc) would be a big power challenge to your older dog.

[Erny]

I've read that I should not intervene and let them fight it out but the puppy is small and the older dog is growling and pouncing around.

There is essence of truth in this but it is something that has been written where all things are equal. IE That we're dealing with 'balanced' dogs .... dogs of good and appropriate temperament. I do agree that dogs are the best dog communicators - we'll only ever be able to mimic them in our fuddly human ways (although I think we do reasonably well sometimes too :D), but we'll never speak as well to a dog as another (balanced) dog might.

Tiffs I don't mind and I do generally let dogs sort our their own tiffs. But a "tiff" to me is something that is done and dusted within a nanno second. If it has gone on long enough for me to draw breath and respond before it has finished, then it is time I stood in. For, whilst I'm not a dog, I'm their leader after all, and it is my right - I want to let BOTH of them know that aggressive/upsetting behaviour is not on around me.

Something, though, Giraffez, that I cannot tell you and that is whether you are 'reading' your two dogs properly. Are you really seeing aggression? Could it be a play growl type behaviour?

The other thing I cannot tell you from this side of cyber space is whether your older (but young) dog is behaving in a way that indicates he is not sure about this pup. Has your 2yo had much experience of pups other than when he was a pup himself? You need to read your dog to know this and if that's the case, not only gentle him into understanding the pup (by being a leader; stopping things going OT; giving each other breaks and the space necessary for them to get to know each other more calmly) but also controlling the pup into a more sedate behaviour. If the situation is not already imminently dangerous and over the top, doing this might just bide the time necessary for the two to bond.

But you will need to be the Leader. And your impression of "leader" and what cuts it will be for your dogs to decide.

ETA: If you're not sure about what you're seeing, getting someone in to assist you would be the go.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Erny

[giraffez]

Something, though, Giraffez, that I cannot tell you and that is whether you are 'reading' your two dogs properly. Are you really seeing aggression? Could it be a play growl type behaviour?

The other thing I cannot tell you from this side of cyber space is whether your older (but young) dog is behaving in a way that indicates he is not sure about this pup. Has your 2yo had much experience of pups other than when he was a pup himself? You need to read your dog to know this and if that's the case, not only gentle him into understanding the pup (by being a leader; stopping things going OT; giving each other breaks and the space necessary for them to get to know each other more calmly) but also controlling the pup into a more sedate behaviour. If the situation is not already imminently dangerous and over the top, doing this might just bide the time necessary for the two to bond.

But you will need to be the Leader. And your impression of "leader" and what cuts it will be for your dogs to decide.

ETA: If you're not sure about what you're seeing, getting someone in to assist you would be the go.

Yes im not sure that i am reading correctly either. It seems rather rough and out of control for a pup. As soon as the pup moves, the older dog would snap at it

No the older dog has had no experience with puppies. He has only met one in the last 6 months and was nervous but ok with it.

Edited November 18, 2010 by giraffez

[giraffez]

In the morning can you put them both on a lead, and you have your older dog and keep him distracted with treats toys, etc, make a big fuss of him and ignore the puppy. Have the puppy in another room to start with if need be, then, while he;s distracted and happy move closer to pup. You might need to keep them separate and then do the on-lead thing, giving your older dog heaps of attention until ha makes the connection that puppy's presence=lots of attention and treats from Mum.

I would also try keeping the pup confined in a puppy pen or crate(until our older dog accepts it anyway), because him having run of the house (and toys, bowlsetc) would be a big power challenge to your older dog.

The thing is the pup starts to cry for attention, and as soon as my older dog hears it, he is fixated on the pup, no treats, toys, play can get his attention straight away.

I feel so bad ignoring the pup, i know it has to be done but it feels terrible

I also dont get why the sudden change in attitude. They were doing so well this morning and afternoon and now they are snapping at each other... Well my older dog is anyway

Edited November 18, 2010 by giraffez

[Christina]

I never introduce a puppy by just bringing it in & letting it loose with the other dogs.

Mine are used to pups as I breed & an accepting breed.

Always have it sat on my lap for introduction & pen in the living area so they get used to each other first.

Out loose under supervision & a watchful eye. Play can turn rough in seconds even with friendly dogs.

Pup has to learn the boundries & they can be pushy pests but best to wait until its not newly into your dogs territory before you let them get on with it.

[giraffez]

The two boys are okay this morning. The older dog a bit of growling at first but stopped quickly. Not really sure what triggered the change in behaviour yesterday. The little one still wants to pounce on the big one and that is annoying the big one a bit. Hope it will be better today, the older dog is still not completely relaxed when the pup is in sight but is accepting.

[corvus]

What breed is the puppy?

Kinda sounds like maybe the older dog is unsure how to behave towards the puppy. If the puppy is jumping at him or on him and he's not entirely comfortable with the puppy in the first place, that might make him feel quite defensive and try to see the puppy off before he can jump on him.

I think I would be concentrating on trying to build a positive association with the puppy for your older dog. Assuming his behaviour stems from being uncertain, one would think it might change if he feels more confident about the puppy. I would be popping him treats for looking at the puppy while you keep the puppy behind a baby gate or in a pen or crate. If he gets good things when he's paying attention to the puppy he is likely to view the puppy as a good thing and loosen up around him. But you would have to be careful about the intensity or level of arousal in the older dog. You don't want intense stares or emotionally heightened behaviour like barking and chasing. This works if the dog is relatively calm. Usually you can put distance between dog and puppy until the dog is relaxed and start there, taking a step or two forwards when your older dog is relaxed.

For more information, look up counter conditioning. It'll be really useful with the puppy as he grows up, even if you decide it's not right for your current situation with the older dog.

[giraffez]

What breed is the puppy?

Kinda sounds like maybe the older dog is unsure how to behave towards the puppy. If the puppy is jumping at him or on him and he's not entirely comfortable with the puppy in the first place, that might make him feel quite defensive and try to see the puppy off before he can jump on him.

I think I would be concentrating on trying to build a positive association with the puppy for your older dog. Assuming his behaviour stems from being uncertain, one would think it might change if he feels more confident about the puppy. I would be popping him treats for looking at the puppy while you keep the puppy behind a baby gate or in a pen or crate. If he gets good things when he's paying attention to the puppy he is likely to view the puppy as a good thing and loosen up around him. But you would have to be careful about the intensity or level of arousal in the older dog. You don't want intense stares or emotionally heightened behaviour like barking and chasing. This works if the dog is relatively calm. Usually you can put distance between dog and puppy until the dog is relaxed and start there, taking a step or two forwards when your older dog is relaxed.

For more information, look up counter conditioning. It'll be really useful with the puppy as he grows up, even if you decide it's not right for your current situation with the older dog.

its a mini schanuzer - well two of them. thanks for the great tips. It really does sound like he is unsure of how to behave around the puppy. He does not guard his belongings or food and shares them with the new puppy. Having said that, i don't want him to start being possesive of his food... will giving him treats in front of the puppy cause that to happen. So far, its been okay... he has been nicely sitting and waiting for the treat while the pup is around. Could i also give the pup a treat too or do i ignore?

I also noticed since bring the new puppy home, he has been less responsive to the commands and harder to get his attention. is this common?

Edited November 18, 2010 by giraffez

[becks]

Feed and train them separately. give pup a treat when pup has done something good.

[corvus]

Having said that, i don't want him to start being possesive of his food... will giving him treats in front of the puppy cause that to happen.

I don't know. It's hard to make an educated guess without knowing the dog. Say I was doing this with a dog I didn't know and a puppy I didn't know, I would be watching for small warning signs from the older dog that might indicate he felt in competition with the puppy. Like if he stares at him, lifts his lip, growls, snaps, or whatever. If I saw that, I would most likely keep going, but I would be very careful that before I popped treats to the older dog he was not looking even the tiniest bit tense. I would be cueing downs and sits and targets or whatever else the older dog knows and rewarding any and all behaviours that AREN'T aggressive towards the puppy. That includes sitting around doing nothing.

I think that often resource guarding in these situations is more about guarding you when you're training with him than food in general. It's a tough one, and if it starts happening and doesn't get better quite quickly with rewarding non-aggressive and calm behaviour around the puppy, I'd abandon it and concentrate on one problem at a time. It's up to you, though. You know the dogs and are able to judge the risks.

So far, its been okay... he has been nicely sitting and waiting for the treat while the pup is around. Could i also give the pup a treat too or do i ignore?

Aww, that's good. Whether you treat the pup or not depends on what you want to do with him. If you don't mind rewarding him away from you (some folks do), you can toss treats to puppy when he's doing things you like, such as anything that is not leaping at the older dog, for example. Otherwise, you can feed the pup treats closer to you if the older dog is nice and comfy with the pup coming that close. If he looks worried, licks his lips, stares or looks out of the corners of his eyes at puppy, gets up and moves or anything like that, just keep the puppy at a distance while you work with the older dog until he's more comfortable. It shouldn't take long.

I also noticed since bring the new puppy home, he has been less responsive to the commands and harder to get his attention. is this common?

Maybe he's feeling a bit anxious about the puppy being in the house. If he's feeling like he has to pay attention to where the puppy is all the time so he can stop the puppy from jumping on him or doing other worrying things, it makes sense that he would be paying less attention to other things like you. He's got more on his plate than usual.

[Aziah]

The two boys are okay this morning. The older dog a bit of growling at first but stopped quickly. Not really sure what triggered the change in behaviour yesterday. The little one still wants to pounce on the big one and that is annoying the big one a bit. Hope it will be better today, the older dog is still not completely relaxed when the pup is in sight but is accepting.

Although what you're experiencing now probably isn't gender related are you prepared for the fact that it might be later on?

What made you go out and get another male rather than a female?

[Aziah]

I notice that you had another thread elsewhere and expressed concerns before you even brought your new puppy home about introductions etc.

Is there a reason you were concerned (ie. existing dog not social etc.)...

I'm asking because I'm concerned that you might have had a mind-set that introduction was going to be a problem well before time and now you might be cueing problems (subconsciously)?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Aziah

[giraffez]

Having said that, i don't want him to start being possesive of his food... will giving him treats in front of the puppy cause that to happen.

I don't know. It's hard to make an educated guess without knowing the dog. Say I was doing this with a dog I didn't know and a puppy I didn't know, I would be watching for small warning signs from the older dog that might indicate he felt in competition with the puppy. Like if he stares at him, lifts his lip, growls, snaps, or whatever. If I saw that, I would most likely keep going, but I would be very careful that before I popped treats to the older dog he was not looking even the tiniest bit tense. I would be cueing downs and sits and targets or whatever else the older dog knows and rewarding any and all behaviours that AREN'T aggressive towards the puppy. That includes sitting around doing nothing.

I think that often resource guarding in these situations is more about guarding you when you're training with him than food in general. It's a tough one, and if it starts happening and doesn't get better quite quickly with rewarding non-aggressive and calm behaviour around the puppy, I'd abandon it and concentrate on one problem at a time. It's up to you, though. You know the dogs and are able to judge the risks.

So far, its been okay... he has been nicely sitting and waiting for the treat while the pup is around. Could i also give the pup a treat too or do i ignore?

Aww, that's good. Whether you treat the pup or not depends on what you want to do with him. If you don't mind rewarding him away from you (some folks do), you can toss treats to puppy when he's doing things you like, such as anything that is not leaping at the older dog, for example. Otherwise, you can feed the pup treats closer to you if the older dog is nice and comfy with the pup coming that close. If he looks worried, licks his lips, stares or looks out of the corners of his eyes at puppy, gets up and moves or anything like that, just keep the puppy at a distance while you work with the older dog until he's more comfortable. It shouldn't take long.

I also noticed since bring the new puppy home, he has been less responsive to the commands and harder to get his attention. is this common?

Maybe he's feeling a bit anxious about the puppy being in the house. If he's feeling like he has to pay attention to where the puppy is all the time so he can stop the puppy from jumping on him or doing other worrying things, it makes sense that he would be paying less attention to other things like you. He's got more on his plate than usual.

Thanks corvus. I'll keep an eye out on it. They have been good all morning except on one occasion and when i separated them for a little while and it went back to normal. I'm not sure whether its jealousy or not, the older dog doesnt seem to display any signs of it except for the barking and growling last night - that i'm not sure is jealousy either.

These sudden outbreak I'm trying to narrow down what is causing it and i still don't know. For example, initially i thought it was the puppy wanting to pounce on the older dog but this morning, the puppy has done it so many times without any problems. Then i thought it was the older dog guarding his bed (the fiasco when i had to break them apart this morning) but 30 mins later, the pup was trying to get into his bed and he was fine with it. So i'm terribly confused. If there was one thing i would have thought he would would have an issue of, it would be food. He loves his food but has no problem when the puppy is around his bowl so there goes that theory.

Getting a male is just a personal choice. I did read up about it before getting and generally the consensus is a female is better if the first is a male. However, having two males is just as possible. This was confirmed by my vet and my breeder also agreed and they know more about the pups personality so I trust their advice. I don't think the growling and all is gender related. The pup is too small to know whats right and wrong and my older dog is inexperienced with puppies i don't think he would know what is male or female.

[giraffez]

I notice that you had another thread elsewhere and expressed concerns before you even brought your new puppy home about introductions etc.

Is there a reason you were concerned (ie. existing dog not social etc.)...

I'm asking because I'm concerned that you might have had a mind-set that introduction was going to be a problem well before time and now you might be cueing problems (subconsciously)?

Yes thats correct. I was concerned because the existing dog was not properly socialised with other dogs. But the whole point of getting a second dog was to keep him company so i was praying it would work for the better.

I could be subconsciously doing it, but i think unlikely because during the first encounter, he saw the puppy a couple of seconds before i did and charged straight at it before i had time to react. Sounds kinda weird but i was focusing on taking him out of the gate and didn't expect the puppy to appear that quickly whereas he saw it straight away.

The funny thing is that even now, they are getting along fine, running around together and playing with the toys together but its those sudden moments when my older dogs had enough that worries me. The older dog stands behind the puppy when they are together to make sure he isn't doing anything wrong, he really is trying to be the big brother. The puppy snapped at the older dog this morning and got a chase for it but no aggression from the older dog.

Edited November 19, 2010 by giraffez

[Aziah]

These sudden outbreak I'm trying to narrow down what is causing it and i still don't know. For example, initially i thought it was the puppy wanting to pounce on the older dog but this morning, the puppy has done it so many times without any problems. Then i thought it was the older dog guarding his bed (the fiasco when i had to break them apart this morning) but 30 mins later, the pup was trying to get into his bed and he was fine with it. So i'm terribly confused. If there was one thing i would have thought he would would have an issue of, it would be food. He loves his food but has no problem when the puppy is around his bowl so there goes that theory.

Getting a male is just a personal choice. I did read up about it before getting and generally the consensus is a female is better if the first is a male. However, having two males is just as possible. This was confirmed by my vet and my breeder also agreed and they know more about the pups personality so I trust their advice. I don't think the growling and all is gender related. The pup is too small to know whats right and wrong and my older dog is inexperienced with puppies i don't think he would know what is male or female.

Yep that's fine and yes it can be done however given you're having issues with simple introduction I think you need to be aware you could have problems down the track.

I'm NOT picking on you (before anyone decides that's the case) but if all is as it seems there should be no problems. You've introduced them, now put the puppy in a pen for a while so he's not terrorising the older male, space, respect and time.

[Aziah]

I notice that you had another thread elsewhere and expressed concerns before you even brought your new puppy home about introductions etc.

Is there a reason you were concerned (ie. existing dog not social etc.)...

I'm asking because I'm concerned that you might have had a mind-set that introduction was going to be a problem well before time and now you might be cueing problems (subconsciously)?

Yes thats correct. I was concerned because the existing dog was not properly socialised with other dogs. But the whole point of getting a second dog was to keep him company so i was praying it would work for the better.

I could be subconsciously doing it, but i think unlikely because during the first encounter, he saw the puppy a couple of seconds before i did and charged straight at it before i had time to react. Sounds kinda weird but i was focusing on taking him out of the gate and didn't expect the puppy to appear that quickly whereas he saw it straight away.

The funny thing is that even now, they are getting along fine, running around together and playing with the toys together but its those sudden moments when my older dogs had enough that worries me. The older dog stands behind the puppy when they are together to make sure he isn't doing anything wrong, he really is trying to be the big brother. The puppy snapped at the older dog this morning and got a chase for it but no aggression from the older dog.

Ok so don't leave them together all the time (it reads as if you are?)...allow them to have a successful playtime and then seperate them for a period of time and so on

ETA: once you see that the older dog has had enough then you can step in and put the puppy away for a rest.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Aziah

[yap]

I was thinking the same thing as Aziah, 'cueing the problems'.

Edited November 19, 2010 by yap