Gsd Puppy Won't Stop Biting Older Shih Tzu - Help!

[annukya]

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping someone will have a solution to my problem as I'm almost at my wits end

We recently brought home a GSD puppy and have had to introduce her to our old resident Shih Tzu. The Shih Tzu is very gentle and very timid, she also has a heart problem so understandably I don't want her to go through too much with the new puppy.

Basically, the problem is that the new puppy (who is well behaved on most accounts) will not stop attacking our older Shih Tzu. We introduced them outside (on leash) and have had the GSD crated while the Shih Tzu sniffs around etc. However it has now been almost a month and nothing has improved. As soon as the GSD puppy sees the Shih Tzu, she runs towards her and pushes her to the ground and bites her. We have been telling her no and trying to distract her with treats, trying to get her to focus her attention on us etc and NOTHING WORKS!

The GSD is actually very smart and is trained but this is the only thing I cannot seem to break. The Shih Tzu growled at the puppy once (which I thought might help) but the GSD just got more excited and proceeded to bite the Shih Tzu which made the Shih Tzu scream in pain and run away.

Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do? I just feel like I've tried almost everything (short list below).

- Crating puppy (Puppy just barks continuously at Shih Tzu whenever Shih Tzu gets close - therefore Shih Tzu just avoided going near crate at all)

- Separating them (as soon as they are together it starts again)

- Putting the Shih Tzu on the couch and pushing GSD puppy away and saying NO loudly (hasn't really worked either)

- Letting them socialise in a neutral place (GSD puppy still focused on attacking Shih Tzu)

So yeah - any help would be greatly appreciated!!!! Thanks

[wuffles]

What is the GSD like around other dogs in general? Has she been to puppy preschool or been socialised with dogs outside your house? What is she like with bigger dogs?

They definitely need to be separated until the GSD learns that your other dog is not a toy. It's not fair on your shih tzu any other way.

[Sandra777]

Keep them PERMANENTLY separated until the puppy has grown up a little and learned both 'no' and 'leave' as well as better social skills. It is possible the puppy sees the older dog as a toy and means no harm but it is also possible you are seeing prey drive and one day the older dog will trigger something in the GSD and you will have a tragedy. Elevating the older dog in the pack won't necessarily help if the puppy sees the older dog as weak, or just as a toy or even worse, as prey.

[poodlefan]

Looks to me like you're staring down the barrel of permanent separation unless you can find someway of correcting the pup's behaviour without distressing the older dog.

Time for professional help I think. I think strong aversives may be called for. Even with that, I think separation will be the safest option for the older dog.

This is not a combination I'd have recommended if harmony between the two dogs was your aim.

Edited November 18, 2010 by poodlefan

[annukya]

What is the GSD like around other dogs in general? Has she been to puppy preschool or been socialised with dogs outside your house? What is she like with bigger dogs?

They definitely need to be separated until the GSD learns that your other dog is not a toy. It's not fair on your shih tzu any other way.

She has been to puppy preschool and is fine with larger dogs/puppies - The thing is she's not really being nasty intentionally, I actually think she wants to play but obviously her size and bite is too strong for the Shih Tzu and scares the living daylights out of her

When she's with other dogs (larger or similar size) they just play as normal and she responds well to commands such as sit, stay, drop, leave, shake hands etc

However when she sees the Shih Tzu its everything out the window (even food won't distract her!!!!)

[annukya]

This is not a combination I'd have recommended if harmony between the two dogs was your aim.

The thing is I had a GSD before this one and she got along fine with the Shih Tzu! I've actually had cats, other Shih Tzu's, other GSD's and I've never really had a serious problem. Obviously I've had to introduce them to each other but generally within 2 weeks they settle down and become friends. That's why this is so frustrating

[poodlefan]

The thing is I had a GSD before this one and she got along fine with the Shih Tzu! I've actually had cats, other Shih Tzu's, other GSD's and I've never really had a serious problem. Obviously I've had to introduce them to each other but generally within 2 weeks they settle down and become friends. That's why this is so frustrating

My guess is the GSD was older and the Shih Tzu was younger at the time? Its a big ask for a tiny older dog to cope with the "attention" of a baby far bigger than it is. Your Shih Tzu is also not the most confident dog in the world and that matters also.

This is the reason there will be no more pups for me before my older poodle goes to God. Little old dogs and bigger pups aren't that easy to manage I'm afraid. You seem to be getting some prey drive working also - that's a risk to the older dog.

[annukya]

The thing is I had a GSD before this one and she got along fine with the Shih Tzu! I've actually had cats, other Shih Tzu's, other GSD's and I've never really had a serious problem. Obviously I've had to introduce them to each other but generally within 2 weeks they settle down and become friends. That's why this is so frustrating

My guess is the GSD was older and the Shih Tzu was younger at the time? Its a big ask for a tiny older dog to cope with the "attention" of a baby far bigger than it is. Your Shih Tzu is also not the most confident dog in the world and that matters also.

This is the reason there will be no more pups for me before my older poodle goes to God. Little old dogs and bigger pups aren't that easy to manage I'm afraid. You seem to be getting some prey drive working also - that's a risk to the older dog.

Actually it wasn't. The Shih was older and the GSD was a young pup. After two weeks of monitoring and training, the GSD got along well with the Shih Tzu and the resident cat (who has now passed). It was the same Shih Tzu too!

[poodlefan]

The thing is I had a GSD before this one and she got along fine with the Shih Tzu! I've actually had cats, other Shih Tzu's, other GSD's and I've never really had a serious problem. Obviously I've had to introduce them to each other but generally within 2 weeks they settle down and become friends. That's why this is so frustrating

My guess is the GSD was older and the Shih Tzu was younger at the time? Its a big ask for a tiny older dog to cope with the "attention" of a baby far bigger than it is. Your Shih Tzu is also not the most confident dog in the world and that matters also.

This is the reason there will be no more pups for me before my older poodle goes to God. Little old dogs and bigger pups aren't that easy to manage I'm afraid. You seem to be getting some prey drive working also - that's a risk to the older dog.

Actually it wasn't. The Shih was older and the GSD was a young pup. After two weeks of monitoring and training, the GSD got along well with the Shih Tzu and the resident cat (who has now passed). It was the same Shih Tzu too!

How many years ago? The dog is older and that matters. My poodle boy gave many lessons to big silly puppies on respecting small dogs. He's simply not up to that task anymore and needs protection from them now.

Get professional help annukya - this has real potential for an unhappy ending for your older dog IMO. Keep them separated.

Edited November 18, 2010 by poodlefan

[sas]

Some puppies are a major pain in the ass to older dogs and you need to protect your older dog by not letting your pup around her if not onlead.

You say 'attacking' - do you mean an actually attack or just over excited play?

What is your dog like with other dogs?

I'd reccomend you get a booked called Ruff Love by Susan Garrett - sounds like this dog is a prime candiate. It's only a thin book and will just take a couple of days to read: http://www.wagschoolbooks.com.au/shop/cata...an-garrett.html

[annukya]

Some puppies are a major pain in the ass to older dogs and you need to protect your older dog by not letting your pup around her if not onlead.

You say 'attacking' - do you mean an actually attack or just over excited play?

What is your dog like with other dogs?

I'd reccomend you get a booked called Ruff Love by Susan Garrett - sounds like this dog is a prime candiate. It's only a thin book and will just take a couple of days to read: http://www.wagschoolbooks.com.au/shop/cata...an-garrett.html

Thanks for the book recommendation - I'll definitely have a look at that.

She isn't really attacking, it is just over-excited play but the problem is the Shih Tzu seems to completely misunderstand her intentions (ie GSD puppy play bows, Shih Tzu growls then puppy jumps towards Shih Tzu and Shih Tzu screams and almost has a heart attack )

I'm looking into getting a trainer to come and see if they have any tips - I'm just at my wits end! I've never had problems socialising small older dogs (or cats) with puppies but this is just completely new!

[Crisovar]

The Shih Tzu is telling the pup to stay out of her face by growling and the pup doesn't heed her warning, separate them or it will end in tears.

[freundhund]

I would keep your puppy separated from your older dog. You started to stress originally about your older dog due to its heart condition, the older dog would have picked this up and is playing on this. Your new puppy wants lots of attention and also to play with the older dog.

My advice is to keep the two dogs separate, particularly if they are the same sex. As your older dog screams and carries on it could arouse the puppy's prey drive.

I would look for professional help as it will help your stress level, which will help your older dog to cope and also please try to choose someone who is familiar with GSD's as the play different to smaller dogs.

[aus_k9gsd]

You will need to separate them, I have a GSD and several small breeds and now he is 19 months old I can let them together as he has finally calmed down now but I would still not leave him unsupervised with them yet even though I could with my other shepherd

[annukya]

Thanks everyone for all the responses so far!!

I've already organised an in-home trainer to come on Tuesday to help with the situation (and she has experience with GSDs!!! ) so hopefully I'll have good news soon :D

[sas]

Some puppies are a major pain in the ass to older dogs and you need to protect your older dog by not letting your pup around her if not onlead.

You say 'attacking' - do you mean an actually attack or just over excited play?

What is your dog like with other dogs?

I'd reccomend you get a booked called Ruff Love by Susan Garrett - sounds like this dog is a prime candiate. It's only a thin book and will just take a couple of days to read: http://www.wagschoolbooks.com.au/shop/cata...an-garrett.html

Thanks for the book recommendation - I'll definitely have a look at that.

She isn't really attacking, it is just over-excited play but the problem is the Shih Tzu seems to completely misunderstand her intentions (ie GSD puppy play bows, Shih Tzu growls then puppy jumps towards Shih Tzu and Shih Tzu screams and almost has a heart attack )

I'm looking into getting a trainer to come and see if they have any tips - I'm just at my wits end! I've never had problems socialising small older dogs (or cats) with puppies but this is just completely new!

Ok, well prob best not to say attacking otherwise people can't give you the right sort of advice. As a dog owner it's your job to protect your older dog, to me it's pretty simple - you need to seperate them.

I'm not sure why you expected the puppy to not act like a puppy and get over excited considering you haven't shown the puppy any boundaries around the older dog.

If you're not sure to handle a puppy then getting a trainer would be a good idea - stay away from the Franchises though.

[annukya]

Ok, well prob best not to say attacking otherwise people can't give you the right sort of advice. As a dog owner it's your job to protect your older dog, to me it's pretty simple - you need to seperate them.

I'm not sure why you expected the puppy to not act like a puppy and get over excited considering you haven't shown the puppy any boundaries around the older dog.

If you're not sure to handle a puppy then getting a trainer would be a good idea - stay away from the Franchises though.

Yes I have been separating them. I'm not irresponsible enough to leave a huge puppy with a sick small dog. The only reason I was asking was because I was hoping there might be a way to socialise them together - something that I might not have tried or thought about. Personally I like to keep my dogs indoors as then they feel as if they are a part of the family - rather than locking the GSD outside and having the Shih Tzu inside.

Also, like I have said before I actually have a lot of experience getting dogs/cats/small breeds to all exist peacefully and I also am very dedicated to training them boundaries at a young age. The puppy is crate trained and clicker trained to respond to commands.

My problem was that she is a 100% perfectly behaved dog 99% of the time. You say drop, she drops; sit, she sits etc. She will even 'stay' while I walk around the house and fluff pillows, cause distractions etc. Its just at certain points she will see the Shih Tzu and get over-excited to the point that she runs over and trys to force the Shih Tzu to play. Obviously as she is a puppy sometimes she nips during this play however the Shih Tzu is TERRIFIED and sees her as attacking. I have asked advice at my dog league and they suggested to push her away and say 'NO' (which I had been doing) however I found that this really doesn't work for this puppy. She will just continue lunging forward and snapping at the Shih Tzu. That's why I am so stressed.

I was also careful to be really calm as to not transfer any of my negative energy onto the puppy or the Shih Tzu. When they were first introduced, it was in a neutral environment with both dogs on lead. Since then they've been separated whenever I can't supervise them 100%. However as its now been over a month, I just really want some help to get them to co-exist peacefully. Hopefully the trainer will be able to achieve that.

[Clyde]

I always have my puppies meet an older dog who I know and trust which will put the pups in their place. This may help in your situation, but I can't stress enough that it be a dog where you know their temperament. My previous neighbour has a Dally who was great with my pups but any nonsense and she would put them back in their box. They've (Staffords) both grown up fairly respectful to older dogs and mindful of my older Shih Tzu. However my old girl gives as good as she gets!

[poodlefan]

Annuka:

Personally I like to keep my dogs indoors as then they feel as if they are a part of the family - rather than locking the GSD outside and having the Shih Tzu inside.

Using crates, this is still possible.

[sas]

Yes I have been separating them. I'm not irresponsible enough to leave a huge puppy with a sick small dog.

Calm down, I never said you were irresponsible, you seem new to puppyhood and not sure of what to do, I'm laying it out in Black and White - I'm not including any emotion in what I type so please don't interpret as such.

Now you explain you are very experienced - that's all well and good - it doesn't matter how obedience trained the dog is with its' sits and drops - it's this simple....your puppy is not acting appropriately with the older dog so you need to step in and seperate and don't let the pup near the older dog without being on a lead - do you see what I mean in terms of setting the puppy up for success rather than letting it keep failing?

Edited November 19, 2010 by sas