Guarding Resource

[Donegal]

I agree with what 55chevy says about political correctness. My previous trainer was like that, really got into bagging prong collars and that stuff and all the inhumane methods that she wont use, like to make out she was all for the best interests of the dog. She went on for an hour about her humane methods before she even looked at my dog and I can vouch first hand that there are trainers out there that are more concerned about methods than thay are about training a dog. I was only interested in knowing if she could fix the dog agro he had

[Erny]

Whilst this thread is not about "aggression begets aggression" per se, I'm going to take the opportunity to follow on with the line of discussion that is currently occurring by adding my 2 cents worth. I tend to agree with some of the other of the posters here that there are SOME dogs where a correction is very helpful for the beginning of rehabilitation for these sorts of problems. I also agree that the only way to advise, especially over the net, is to err on the side of being non-confrontational (and therefore using only the more positive techniques) because human safety is paramount. It is good that the topic of corrections do find their way in to these sort of discussions though, as if we all avoid mentioning them, readers will become used to reading only of positive methodology and begin to believe that corrections have no place in dog training/behaviour at all, when they do. But they should only be applied if the handler is certain of what he/she is doing.

Something also to consider when thinking of corrections - I see the termonology "aggression begets aggression". That's potentially true, although I do like to consider a correction as something delivered not from an aggressor but from a leader. These sorts of corrections are effected quickly; keenly; calmly - and are over just as fast or faster than they begin. They are not violent and there is as little as possible movement from the handler. This is where PPCollars are excellent tools for the job because handled correctly, it means that the handler's body movement is kept to a minimum yet the correction for all this reduced movement, has better impact. But anyway - I should not linger on the topic of PPCollars as it has a habit of causing me to digress from the topic at hand .

Speaking of being on topic - something the OP might try is teaching this dog to target to the hand. The OP and/or the OP's Mum can then potentially use this to entice the dog from the bed without eliciting the aggressive behaviour.

Install a baby gate to help with keeping the dog out of the room and off the bed. Might be easier than remembering to close the bedroom door.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Erny

[BMAK]

I have one problem that I hope someone can give me advice on. When Micky first came to live with us, my mum insisted he sleep on her bed at night. I would have had him sleep in his own bed, but she was insistent. After about 6 months one night my mum went to get into bed and Micky was asleep, she just pushed him from the back end and he turned round and went for her. I heard the commotion and went in the room, by this time my mum had become very upset and had raised her voice at him telling him to get off the bed. He was not going anywhere. I knew I had to get him off, so I spoke calmly to him and put my hand out the get hold of the short lease attached to his collar, I could see by his body language that he was not happy, but I had to get him off. He went for me also, but I got him off the bed and calmly ushered him out of the room and set his bed up for him. Since then he has not been allowed to sleep on the bed at all, but he still regards it (the bed) as his resource. On the odd time I’ve caught him in there and on the bed, he usually gets off if I say “Off”

just going to add my 2 cents into it, by what i have read micky moo you look to be your the one being/trying to be the pack leader as such with this dog, by the looks this dog is your mum's pet (not sure).

When some one is scared of a dog and they are trying to be pack leader (your mother) the dog can sense that she is nervous and not confident when handling the dog, another reason why she is finding it hard to give the dog disiplen, boundaies and limitations on where the dog should be sleeping and controling the unwanted habits.

She wants to become more of a pack leader and to be able to feel confident when dealing with this dog.

By the sounds and she is unable to do so and a bit scared of it happening again, until your get the advise from a proffessional leaving a lead on the dog at a length that you don't have to risk being snapped/bitten but are still able to give a firm correction or direct the dog from a distance to do what you ask and taking control it may give her a confidence boost without getting in the dogs bubble.

good luck

[Nekhbet]

considering the dog had NO boundries, was a nervy ball of untrained adolescent energy and had no problems fighting back, yes. For safety of the family it was the best way and it did work because he wasnt pushed into aggression. They were quite soft people and being firm was not easy, but being very consistent was. Once a firm routine was set and the environment controlled the dog stopped being difficult and needing to aggress towards the family ... he was also moved from the bedroom and ignored at bed time totally so he learned that meant sleep time. The only way to pick a fight with that dog would have been with a baton at the ready considering it had learned to bite people hard, but really do you want to have to go that far to train a dog? Trust me I have learned if you cannot uphold your end of the fight through to a finish you DONT start something with a dog. My OH almost learned that the hard way with a dog last week.

I have Koehlers books here. Yes he had some points but I believe in some ways we have progressed from treating an aggressive dog by beating it on the face with a rod when it aggresses. 55chev I'm no hippy and have no problems applying a correction to a dog if it needs and trust me many have had it come quite swiftly. But when it comes to your client and their own capabilities you have to think outside your own box. While I can handle a bull arab who flies at me, they could not. The hands off approach does not mean completely letting the dog get away with murder. If you want more info feel free to email me I'd be happy to chat about ways of training that I do :D

[Kelpie-i]

Well written Nekhbet!

[55chevy]

considering the dog had NO boundries, was a nervy ball of untrained adolescent energy and had no problems fighting back, yes. For safety of the family it was the best way and it did work because he wasnt pushed into aggression. They were quite soft people and being firm was not easy, but being very consistent was. Once a firm routine was set and the environment controlled the dog stopped being difficult and needing to aggress towards the family ... he was also moved from the bedroom and ignored at bed time totally so he learned that meant sleep time. The only way to pick a fight with that dog would have been with a baton at the ready considering it had learned to bite people hard, but really do you want to have to go that far to train a dog? Trust me I have learned if you cannot uphold your end of the fight through to a finish you DONT start something with a dog. My OH almost learned that the hard way with a dog last week.

I have Koehlers books here. Yes he had some points but I believe in some ways we have progressed from treating an aggressive dog by beating it on the face with a rod when it aggresses. 55chev I'm no hippy and have no problems applying a correction to a dog if it needs and trust me many have had it come quite swiftly. But when it comes to your client and their own capabilities you have to think outside your own box. While I can handle a bull arab who flies at me, they could not. The hands off approach does not mean completely letting the dog get away with murder. If you want more info feel free to email me I'd be happy to chat about ways of training that I do

I agree Nekhbet, you made a good assessment in the circumstances. Training people how to train their dog does present the greatest challenge. Having the ability and experience to train a dog yourself and determining a routine for dog owners to follow within their capabilities is two different things, I do understand that, nice post, thanks

I think Koehler may have traded in his nose whacker for an E collar and his choker for a prong and taken advantage of modern technology

Edited November 20, 2010 by 55chevy

[55chevy]

Whilst this thread is not about "aggression begets aggression" per se, I'm going to take the opportunity to follow on with the line of discussion that is currently occurring by adding my 2 cents worth. I tend to agree with some of the other of the posters here that there are SOME dogs where a correction is very helpful for the beginning of rehabilitation for these sorts of problems. I also agree that the only way to advise, especially over the net, is to err on the side of being non-confrontational (and therefore using only the more positive techniques) because human safety is paramount. It is good that the topic of corrections do find their way in to these sort of discussions though, as if we all avoid mentioning them, readers will become used to reading only of positive methodology and begin to believe that corrections have no place in dog training/behaviour at all, when they do. But they should only be applied if the handler is certain of what he/she is doing.

Something also to consider when thinking of corrections - I see the termonology "aggression begets aggression". That's potentially true, although I do like to consider a correction as something delivered not from an aggressor but from a leader. These sorts of corrections are effected quickly; keenly; calmly - and are over just as fast or faster than they begin. They are not violent and there is as little as possible movement from the handler. This is where PPCollars are excellent tools for the job because handled correctly, it means that the handler's body movement is kept to a minimum yet the correction for all this reduced movement, has better impact. But anyway - I should not linger on the topic of PPCollars as it has a habit of causing me to digress from the topic at hand .

Speaking of being on topic - something the OP might try is teaching this dog to target to the hand. The OP and/or the OP's Mum can then potentially use this to entice the dog from the bed without eliciting the aggressive behaviour.

Install a baby gate to help with keeping the dog out of the room and off the bed. Might be easier than remembering to close the bedroom door.

Lovely constructed 2 cents worth Erny People often have the wrong impression which you have clearly pointed out. It's not about acting in an aggressive way with the dog in violent emotion. An aversive correction is an emtionless fast and calm counteraction to an aggressive reaction. I have found that when a dog is more likely to redirect aggression towards the owners adminstering an aversive, is when the aversive is met with yelling and screaming at the dog to demonstrate a loss of control and composure on the owners part which can elevate the aggression to a higher level.

[shyfig]

Probably the safest thing to do would be to put up a baby gate so he does not have access to the bedrooms, otherwise Id crate him so I knew where he was at all times.

I have had great success with a vibrate collar to get rid of unwanted behaviour in my dogs, some dogs it will not work on but its worth a try, basically it means no one touches him but he gets a vibrate when he is doing unwanted behaviour - on the bed etc. I do not say anything when I give my dogs a vibrate then they do not see it as me doing it....

VIBRATE COLLAR this is the one I have

How exactly do you implement the vibrations?.....I mean how does the dog know the behaviour is wrong? For example if the dog is on the bed and you want him to get off, how is the process put together? Do you command with "off" followed by a vibration if he doesn't obey?

Did that make any sense at all?

Edited January 7, 2011 by shyfig

[shyfig]

Whilst this thread is not about "aggression begets aggression" per se, I'm going to take the opportunity to follow on with the line of discussion that is currently occurring by adding my 2 cents worth. I tend to agree with some of the other of the posters here that there are SOME dogs where a correction is very helpful for the beginning of rehabilitation for these sorts of problems. I also agree that the only way to advise, especially over the net, is to err on the side of being non-confrontational (and therefore using only the more positive techniques) because human safety is paramount. It is good that the topic of corrections do find their way in to these sort of discussions though, as if we all avoid mentioning them, readers will become used to reading only of positive methodology and begin to believe that corrections have no place in dog training/behaviour at all, when they do. But they should only be applied if the handler is certain of what he/she is doing.

Something also to consider when thinking of corrections - I see the termonology "aggression begets aggression". That's potentially true, although I do like to consider a correction as something delivered not from an aggressor but from a leader. These sorts of corrections are effected quickly; keenly; calmly - and are over just as fast or faster than they begin. They are not violent and there is as little as possible movement from the handler. This is where PPCollars are excellent tools for the job because handled correctly, it means that the handler's body movement is kept to a minimum yet the correction for all this reduced movement, has better impact. But anyway - I should not linger on the topic of PPCollars as it has a habit of causing me to digress from the topic at hand .

Speaking of being on topic - something the OP might try is teaching this dog to target to the hand. The OP and/or the OP's Mum can then potentially use this to entice the dog from the bed without eliciting the aggressive behaviour.

Install a baby gate to help with keeping the dog out of the room and off the bed. Might be easier than remembering to close the bedroom door.

What does "target to the hand" mean?

[Erny]

What does "target to the hand" mean?

It is where the dog is taught to touch the handler's hand on cue. Commonly this is taught so the 'touch' comes from the dog's nose and this is generally the easiest to teach, although some will teach their dogs 'touch' using different areas of the dog's body. Eg. Hip; paw; etc. Targeting can prove to be a very handy exercise/skill/trick to teach a dog for very many varied purposes. Sometimes it can be used just as a mental exercise for the dog to learn/perform. But it can also be used to improve obedience skills (eg heel; recall) and also some behaviour problems.

[sas]

QUOTE

Dogs ogs don't challdon't challenge the pack leader with aggression

Thanks for your replies

I must clarify; I have worked hard to become the ALPHA and know that I have gained that position because of Micky's behaviour toward me. Though he resource guards my mums bed, he would not bite/snap at me when getting him off the bed, but I never have need to use his collar to drag him off, all I need to say is "OFF" and he get's off. Unfortunately he feels of higher rank than my mother and no matter how much I ask/tell her she needs to be firm with him, she is not consistant. I have now made the concerted effort not to allow him in the room or on the bed.

I would never reprimand any dog (let alone one with Micky dominant personality)with any physical punishment as I m in agreement that aggression breeds aggression.

I will speak with the animal behaviourist about this behaviour, but I feel that I already know the answer; my mum needs to show him that she is above him in the pack hierarchy, but in a calm, firm way.

again, thanks for your input.

Micky Moo

Put a baby gate up, this way you'll cease setting the dog up for faliure.

Next get the Behaviourist back.