Newbie Agility Question, Handler/obstacle Focus

[Staranais]

How do you agility people change the behaviour of dogs that have too much handler focus, and not enough obstacle focus?

Most of you know the background to the question - 16mo malinois girl is on heat, I have to do something to exercise her on the property, so she's temporarily become my experimental agility puppy.

So I have managed to get her weaving two sets of two poles so far. They're not stuck together yet, and not parallel yet, but I'm really happy with her level of understanding & motivation. She will enter the poles correctly at a run from various angles, no matter where I am or what I am doing, and she will keep running past the last set to intercept the toy she knows will appear from above.

My issue is that when she waits for me to release her to the poles, she will not look at the poles, she will look at me. This is reasonable, as in the past she has always been taught that watching me is the best way to get released to do what she wants.

In general I like this behaviour. But in this instance, it's not ideal, since she often misses the entrance of the poles when I release her. She runs so fast when released that if we are close to the poles, she hasn't really got time to see the poles & find the entrance before she hits them. I could start further away, but that's not really fixing the issue, and I'd like to fix it. I'd like her to stare intently at the poles until released, instead of staring intently at me!

I initially thought I'd just wait her out & release when she happened to glance at the poles, but she just doesn't give up, and will stare at me ever more and more intently, getting more and more spun up ("ha, lady! You can't trick me into looking away! I will stare at you and scream until you release me!") And even if she glances away from me, it's not to look at the poles.

I have created a handler focus monster! How do you all create obstacle focus in an agility dog?

[huski]

I will wait with interest for replies SA! We have just started agility and I envision having the same problem.

[ness]

I think I kick started with standing her right next to the poles and tossing food . Although I also had a cone monster so I could place an orange traffic cone out in front (handy to mark the reward line for the 2x2 stuff so I had something to aim at) she would then focus on the cone rather than on me.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Put her in a sit (stay) and place a tug or ball 2-3 metres away. Come back to her vicinity, release her when she looks at the tug, rinse repeat. If she can hold a sit then throw the item while she holds a sit. It'd be nice if after you throw the item she didn't actually look at you at all, her focus was purely on the item.

Add poles, jumps etc after that.

Susan Garrett's Success with One Jump is a good DVD, would give you lots to work on even if she was jumping at 100 or 200mm due to her elbow issues..?

Edited November 14, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[ness]

oops forgot about that SnT yeah we did lots of that too .

[Staranais]

Thanks Ness! Do you mean you throw the food before sending her, or after?

Put her in a sit (stay) and place a tug or ball 2-3 metres away. Come back to her vicinity, release her when she looks at the tug, rinse repeat. If she can hold a sit then throw the item while she holds a sit. It'd be nice if after you throw the item she didn't actually look at you at all, her focus was purely on the item.

Add poles, jumps etc after that.

Yes, that is an interesting thought. She is actually already very good at watching the dumbbell after I throw it for her to retrieve, so perhaps throwing the toy and then letting her run to it past the poles is an idea? At the moment she runs, then I throw when she's successfully negotiated the last pole (so it lands in front of her).

The only issue is that then I can't choose whether to reward her or not, so if she buggers up the entrance, she still get the toy?

Susan Garrett's Success with One Jump is a good DVD, would give you lots to work on even if she was jumping at 100 or 200mm due to her elbow issues..?

She has officially gotten the all clear to try some jumping (hooray!) but I'm an overprotective dog owner, so she'll be jumping at ridiculously small heights for a while yet! I'll try to get my paws on a copy. Not sure if anyone I know will have it, but sounds useful.

[dandybrush]

mmm my boy is super focused on me, this is an issue i was sort of having, in that he woudnt work at any distance from me, however as he gets better and understands agility and the tricks more he seems happier to work at a little distance from me, i really just think with time and training once they understand what you are asking that the focus they have on you is not a problem, it means they listen to you when you tell them where to go, thats just my experience

[TerraNik]

I had this problem - Jedi was a velcro dog and he wouldn't stop staring at me and wouldn't work away from me... So we went and did Flyball! Because of that, he learned how to work away from me and focus on something other than me. We're back doing agility now and we no longer have those issues.

So I guess, I taught him how to work away from me - I think Ness and SnT had some good ideas.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Thanks Ness! Do you mean you throw the food before sending her, or after?

Put her in a sit (stay) and place a tug or ball 2-3 metres away. Come back to her vicinity, release her when she looks at the tug, rinse repeat. If she can hold a sit then throw the item while she holds a sit. It'd be nice if after you throw the item she didn't actually look at you at all, her focus was purely on the item.

Add poles, jumps etc after that.

Yes, that is an interesting thought. She is actually already very good at watching the dumbbell after I throw it for her to retrieve, so perhaps throwing the toy and then letting her run to it past the poles is an idea? At the moment she runs, then I throw when she's successfully negotiated the last pole (so it lands in front of her).

The only issue is that then I can't choose whether to reward her or not, so if she buggers up the entrance, she still get the toy?

Susan Garrett's Success with One Jump is a good DVD, would give you lots to work on even if she was jumping at 100 or 200mm due to her elbow issues..?

She has officially gotten the all clear to try some jumping (hooray!) but I'm an overprotective dog owner, so she'll be jumping at ridiculously small heights for a while yet! I'll try to get my paws on a copy. Not sure if anyone I know will have it, but sounds useful.

Do the exercise without any obstacles first so you know for sure she understands. I'm pretty sure in 2x2 program you throw once they have entered and towards the end so you know they have got the entry right and haven't popped out either.

You may want to get the Susan Salo Foundation Jumping so she learns how to visualise her line and how to collect herself. It starts with simulated poles on the ground first.

[perfect partners]

How do you agility people change the behaviour of dogs that have too much handler focus, and not enough obstacle focus?

Most of you know the background to the question - 16mo malinois girl is on heat, I have to do something to exercise her on the property, so she's temporarily become my experimental agility puppy.

So I have managed to get her weaving two sets of two poles so far. They're not stuck together yet, and not parallel yet, but I'm really happy with her level of understanding & motivation. She will enter the poles correctly at a run from various angles, no matter where I am or what I am doing, and she will keep running past the last set to intercept the toy she knows will appear from above.

My issue is that when she waits for me to release her to the poles, she will not look at the poles, she will look at me. This is reasonable, as in the past she has always been taught that watching me is the best way to get released to do what she wants.

In general I like this behaviour. But in this instance, it's not ideal, since she often misses the entrance of the poles when I release her. She runs so fast when released that if we are close to the poles, she hasn't really got time to see the poles & find the entrance before she hits them. I could start further away, but that's not really fixing the issue, and I'd like to fix it. I'd like her to stare intently at the poles until released, instead of staring intently at me!

I initially thought I'd just wait her out & release when she happened to glance at the poles, but she just doesn't give up, and will stare at me ever more and more intently, getting more and more spun up ("ha, lady! You can't trick me into looking away! I will stare at you and scream until you release me!") And even if she glances away from me, it's not to look at the poles.

I have created a handler focus monster! How do you all create obstacle focus in an agility dog?

Susan Garrett suggests releasing as soon as they look away from you for an instant and then shaping it towards looking at the obstacle.

I also recommend Susan Salo's Foundation Jumping DVDs. I'm teaching my Newfie to jump using her system and it's working really well.

[Staranais]

Thanks for all the ideas so far, people!

I think I'll experiment with placing or throwing the toy ahead of the obstacle before releasing her, & see if that makes any difference to where she chooses to stare as she waits to be released. I'm thinking she might understand the difference between being marked & me playing with the toy (for a correct performance), and her getting to the toy but not getting playtime with it (for an incorrect performance), so I'll play around with it and see where we get.

Just waiting for her to look away merely seems to frustrate and confuse her, although I'll go that route if I have to do so.

Also thanks for the all the different DVD recommendations, although to be frank I probably won't be able to get any dog DVDs for a wee while yet.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Staranais

[Paul Bright]

mmm my boy is super focused on me, this is an issue i was sort of having, in that he woudnt work at any distance from me, however as he gets better and understands agility and the tricks more he seems happier to work at a little distance from me, i really just think with time and training once they understand what you are asking that the focus they have on you is not a problem, it means they listen to you when you tell them where to go, thats just my experience

I agree :D being focused on you as the master is a WONDERFUL thing!!! Getting your dog to focus on the trainer is one of the hardest things to do and your dog just loves you All you need to do is to make her understand what you want her to do When she gets it, she'll be great at anything!

[Vickie]

I agree :D being focused on you as the master is a WONDERFUL thing!!!

yes, in every day life & some sports, but certainly not for agility or for some other activities.

Staranais, I would be teaching her a position first, away from obstacles. It might be better to teach a position you have not already asked for & rewarded for her focussing on your face.

Can be done with food or toys.

I used a balll thrower & the word ready. In order to get one of mine to focus away from my face, I had to do a couple of fake throws & mark the second she looked away from me. I am sure I could have waited her out but it was taking forever. The other one got it straight away. I only brought obstacles into it when I had a look ahead on "ready" and a full drive ahead on "go" based on the promise of a ball rather than an actual lure with it.

Another thing which works is to anchor yourself, by sitting in a chair & shape a lateral movement in front of you.

[Staranais]

Staranais, I would be teaching her a position first, away from obstacles. It might be better to teach a position you have not already asked for & rewarded for her focussing on your face.

Can be done with food or toys.

I used a balll thrower & the word ready. In order to get one of mine to focus away from my face, I had to do a couple of fake throws & mark the second she looked away from me. I am sure I could have waited her out but it was taking forever. The other one got it straight away. I only brought obstacles into it when I had a look ahead on "ready" and a full drive ahead on "go" based on the promise of a ball rather than an actual lure with it.

Another thing which works is to anchor yourself, by sitting in a chair & shape a lateral movement in front of you.

Ooh, could you please explain this a little more, Vickie? It sounds interesting but I don't quite get it yet.

By teaching a position, do you mean like sit or stand or down? Or a position like, look away from me?

& by a lateral movement, do you mean like sending her between targets in front of me?

[Vickie]

By teaching a position, do you mean like sit or stand or down? Or a position like, look away from me?

Both. When I pat my side & say "here", my dogs will come & stand beside me, facing the same way, kind of like a heel position I guess. Generally they are looking at me. When I say the word "ready", they look away from me & straight ahead. I never release unil they are looking straight ahead.

I think of "ready" as a position, they are beside me & focussing ahead.

I'm just remembering back to the details of how I taught it. I did it in the park, with no obstacles. Initially I used their collar to bring & hold them in position beside me. With a ball thrower in my other hand, the collar hold served as a restrained recall type motivator. Initially while holding their collar (which tends to encourage them not to look at you...and allows you to help them not to if needed) I used the word "ready", threw the ball & released to the ball with a "go". Once we had done this a few times, I was able to delay the throwing of the ball so it served as a reward, rather than a lure. The ball was only thrown after they looked ahead on ready & then drove forward on release. I then stopped holding the collar & moving into position by themselves was part of the final behaviour to: line up beside me, focus ahead and drive forward.

Once I truly had this, I put it in front of an obstacle and did lots of proofing by varying my position and theirs. I can now set them up with 2 obstacles side by side in front & only release when they look at the right one.

The whole process was harder with Trim, as I had initially taught her to do so many things while she was standing in front of me, so her focus on my face was such stronger. While doing all the above, I also retaught all her trained behaviours (sit, down, spin, back etc) from the side. I think it helped to do this in parallel.

& by a lateral movement, do you mean like sending her between targets in front of me?

yes, kind of. If you set up a jump upright, you can throw food on either side of it from a stationary position. The reason food is good, is that while they are eating & before they look at or move towards you, you can throw the next bit. The idea is to get them moving through it back & forth by themselves while you sit still. You can shape this or start by luring & move to shaping. They soon work out that going through the uprights provides the reward.

I can try to video some of this later to show you. Pep hasn't done it yet, so I can show you with a dog who already has quite a lot of handler focus.

[Staranais]

By teaching a position, do you mean like sit or stand or down? Or a position like, look away from me?

Both. When I pat my side & say "here", my dogs will come & stand beside me, facing the same way, kind of like a heel position I guess. Generally they are looking at me. When I say the word "ready", they look away from me & straight ahead. I never release unil they are looking straight ahead.

I think of "ready" as a position, they are beside me & focussing ahead.

Oh, I get it, thanks! I will give this a go.

I can try to video some of this later to show you. Pep hasn't done it yet, so I can show you with a dog who already has quite a lot of handler focus.

Yes please Vickie! That would be very helpful.

[Vickie]

Forgot to say, I think using a ball thower or frisbee is easier than tug toy b/c tug is often associated with them looking at you, whereas the other 2 tend to be associated with moving away from you.

Will try to video this afternoon or tomorrow

[Staranais]

Hmmm, may have solved this, not sure yet. She understood "watch that" within 3 reps (looking the big red boomer ball to earn the tug chucked in front of her), and she transfered that to watching the poles within another couple of reps. So hopefully with a little bit of work she will generalise it to watching anything I want, wherever we are. She really is a rather clever cookie.

Would still love to see your video though, Vickie!