Propalin For Incontinence In 3yo Bitch

[woody2shoes]

Hi all,

One of my 3yo lab bitches (desexed) became progressively incontinent this winter. My vet was able to diagnose her issue as bladder sphincter weakness so she was subsequently started on Propalin and has since been incident free.

I should just be grateful I guess but I am not keen to have her on any sort of meds for the rest of her life if I can avoid it. In theory, she could live to be 16yo!

Does anyone have advice as to how to wean her off it? I have heard reports of people being able to take their dogs off incontinence meds in time with success but not sure if they went cold turkey. Any advice would be appreciated.

BTW. my vet seems reluctant to go down that path (no real reason - he just is) so I don't want to force the issue at this point unless I have to. I figure if I try it and it is unsuccessful, I am no worse off. Cheers!

w2s

[noisymina]

You can do some research and try the herbal route.

I did that with Kaisie for a while with some apparent, but not totally perfect, success.

She is on Propalin and Stilboestrol these days.

I'm 100% sure as it was a while ago, but I think some of the herbs I used were:

Corn silk

Rose hips

Brewer's Yeast

Calcium Ascorbate powder

Fennel Seeds

Dolomite

Trouble is, you get varying opinions on individual supplements. So sure, do research etc before you go that way.

I think, for example, some say Dolomite is not a good thing. Some say they can be allergic to Brewer's yeast. But I only used small amounts and she never seemd to have any probelms with the mix. We did that for over 12 months. Until we found our new vet. She was not worried about the mix I was giving her. Although I think she was dubious about the efficacy of it.

Garlic is often recommended for animals but I'm not in favour of using it unless they are clearly unwell with a virus or cold.

It is also a lot more trouble. But certainly not as expensive. The supplement packs go a LOT further!

One bag of Corn Silk will last you for 5 years.

[vetrg]

Unfortunately some sort of ongoing treatment is often required as the incontinence is due to reduced pelvic floor musculature secondary to the hormone loss after spaying. There are 2 main medical options: sphincter muscle tighteners (such as she is on now) or hormone supplements to replace those missing hormones. I have given my dog "Incurin" tablets from Intervet. I have found I can pulse dose her with those and they appear to have a effect that does wane over time but it means I only treat her for 2 weeks or so every 6-9 months. Having said that I have treated some dogs who require both sorts of medications ongoing to maintain continence so it depends how bad she is.

The leakage can be worsened by low grade cystitis (secondary to the incontinence) so it is worth watching her for any signs of discomfort etc when urinating

[woody2shoes]

Unfortunately some sort of ongoing treatment is often required as the incontinence is due to reduced pelvic floor musculature secondary to the hormone loss after spaying. There are 2 main medical options: sphincter muscle tighteners (such as she is on now) or hormone supplements to replace those missing hormones. I have given my dog "Incurin" tablets from Intervet. I have found I can pulse dose her with those and they appear to have a effect that does wane over time but it means I only treat her for 2 weeks or so every 6-9 months. Having said that I have treated some dogs who require both sorts of medications ongoing to maintain continence so it depends how bad she is.

The leakage can be worsened by low grade cystitis (secondary to the incontinence) so it is worth watching her for any signs of discomfort etc when urinating

Noisymina, thanks for the advice...I have no issue going down the naturopathic path as long as it is reliable. The Propalin will be a hard act to follow I suspect.

vetrg, my vet seemed to think it was unlikely that the incontinence was related to my bitch being desexed. It was the first thing I suggested. He said that she was far too young for that - 7yo was typical. He also said that using hormones would be worse for her than giving her the Propalin (I guess he meant because it is essentially HRT? not sure....)

In any case, I can only ask him again. I am certainly very happy with the Propalin except I find that she is a little bit jumpy on it and more hyper than normal. Other than that, no problem.

I'd be keen to reduce the cost too so perhaps Incurin used as you suggest might be a viable alternative over the long term, even if it isn't as reliable. The Propalin costs over $80/100ml and that lasts me less than 2 months. As long as I don't jeopordise her health, I'd be prepared to put up with the odd accident.

w2s

[noisymina]

Vets seem to vary in their attitude to the use of Stilboestrol.

Kaisie was born 2.7.99.

So she's now 11 years old. Which is a bloody good innings for a Dobe.

She was diagnosed with Spay incontinence at 4 years.

Except for that 12 -18 month herbal break, she's been on Stilboestrol the whole time since then. In the last year or so, she's been on Propalin as well.

[noisymina]

I was just doing abit of a run through Google and found this one!

Alternative Treatments for Incontinence

Comment 3: I don't know if your dog would be amenable, but when our spayed female started leaving puddles when she was sleeping we started her on a tail-wagging program to increase the strength of her pelvic floor muscles

(like Kegels for dogs). We taught her to wag her tail on command by shaping the tail wag using a clicker and treats, and eventually got her to the point where she could wag vigorously when we asked her to. She stopped leaking about a week after the regular wagging exercises began. Now she does 3 sets of 30 wags every day, and she has never leaked again. Just a thought for you and anyone else who might want to try a non-drug option for spay-incontinence. Our vet was so pleased with this program that she gave us a free set of shots when we taught her about it!

http://www.bigpawsonly.com/spayed-dogs-inc...ce-features.htm

I think I would have a hard time doing that with a docked breed.

[noisymina]

Here's something better on the herbal side:

Herbal remedies, such as corn silk, have worked for some. This comes in the form of capsules, tincture or tea. Corn silk is not the only herb, of course; the following have also been found to work:

*

nettle root

*

uva ursi

*

marshmallow

Corn silk works as an anti-inflammatory for the urinary tract and helps get rid of urine more frequently. Unlike many medicines, corn silk can be used for long periods of time with little or no side-effects.

Fennel is another herb, often added to your dog's drinking water, with reports of high success. Fennel had been used for centuries in human mothers to help with milk production for nursing. Fennel is also high in vitamins A and C, iron, potassium and calcium. The reason fennel is thought to work so well is because of the estrogen-like properties it carries.

Dietary changes could benefit your dog as well. Many dog owners report limiting or removing grain from their dog's diet helped spay related incontinence issues. Grain (such as wheat or rice) can irritate a dog's bladder and inflame the urinary tract. This goes for the food they eat, as well as any treats you may be giving her.

http://www.vetinfo.com/spay-incontinence-in-dogs.html

[woody2shoes]

Here's something better on the herbal side:

Herbal remedies, such as corn silk, have worked for some. This comes in the form of capsules, tincture or tea. Corn silk is not the only herb, of course; the following have also been found to work:

*

nettle root

*

uva ursi

*

marshmallow

Corn silk works as an anti-inflammatory for the urinary tract and helps get rid of urine more frequently. Unlike many medicines, corn silk can be used for long periods of time with little or no side-effects.

Fennel is another herb, often added to your dog's drinking water, with reports of high success. Fennel had been used for centuries in human mothers to help with milk production for nursing. Fennel is also high in vitamins A and C, iron, potassium and calcium. The reason fennel is thought to work so well is because of the estrogen-like properties it carries.

Dietary changes could benefit your dog as well. Many dog owners report limiting or removing grain from their dog's diet helped spay related incontinence issues. Grain (such as wheat or rice) can irritate a dog's bladder and inflame the urinary tract. This goes for the food they eat, as well as any treats you may be giving her.

http://www.vetinfo.com/spay-incontinence-in-dogs.html

Thanks for all that info noisymina! Good stuff...the tail wagging exercise is actually very logical. I noticed that Gidget's incontinence worsened considerably over this winter when her swimming exercise regime came to a grinding halt (our irrigation channel was drained) and I suspected that it might have impacted on the strength of her pelvic floor muscles. I have now been able to resume her swimming and was curious to see if that might help her incontinence...I can easily get her to do vigorous tail wagging for that matter! I only have to look at her!

The natural remedies certainly hold some merit and I plan to look into them. Thank you so much for your feedback. I really do appreciate it.

w2s

[noisymina]

Glad she's a tail wagger, then.

It's all worth a try.

Let us know how you go!

[becks]

I use herbs for one of mine (I know they work, as when she doesn't have them, the problem returns) they are from csjk9.com - you can see what herbs are included from their, I think agrimony is the 'active' ingredient.

Previously other bitches have had stilboestrol, propalin +/- incurin.

Some can be slowly weaned off the treatment, some may need a boost in treatment at the time they would have been in season - one of mine was like this and had the incurin to boost the propalin at this time.

[woody2shoes]

I use herbs for one of mine (I know they work, as when she doesn't have them, the problem returns) they are from csjk9.com - you can see what herbs are included from their, I think agrimony is the 'active' ingredient.

Previously other bitches have had stilboestrol, propalin +/- incurin.

Some can be slowly weaned off the treatment, some may need a boost in treatment at the time they would have been in season - one of mine was like this and had the incurin to boost the propalin at this time.

Thanks becks. Is only the one girl on the herbal treatment? Have you tried it on any others with success?

I like the concept of the 6 monthly boost too. It's good to have other options to fall back on, just in case.

I also spoke to my vet today about the possible use of Suprelorin implants. These are all just options. He said he'd read up on it and let me know...

Fingers crossed that something positive comes out of all this. Many thanks to everyone...

[woody2shoes]

I use herbs for one of mine (I know they work, as when she doesn't have them, the problem returns) they are from csjk9.com - you can see what herbs are included from their, I think agrimony is the 'active' ingredient.

I have looked up the product you are using - Hold It - it certainly sounds promising.

Can you please tell me how you sourced it? Was it through their website or is there an Australian distributor?

Thanks in advance.

w2s

[becks]

I'm in the UK, so that's how I get it sourced! :D there are other UK suppliers who maybe able to send it to Oz, if you wanted to try it.

I just have the one girl on it, the other one it didn't work for. The 3rd bitch was before i found the herbs.

Why are you interested in using the suprelorin instead of propalin?

[woody2shoes]

I'm in the UK, so that's how I get it sourced! there are other UK suppliers who maybe able to send it to Oz, if you wanted to try it.

I just have the one girl on it, the other one it didn't work for. The 3rd bitch was before i found the herbs.

Why are you interested in using the suprelorin instead of propalin?

Oh, that's a shame...it did look as though it might be worth a try but I imagine that getting it in from the UK might not be all tha viable. I did try to find a similar product here online but there didn't seem to be anything...

I hadn't considered Suprelorin as an alternative till someone suggested it to me very recently. I had hoped to get Gidget to the stage where she could be medication free but that is sounding less and less likely. So, given that she will more than likely have to be on something for the rest of her life, I'd like to make it as easy and affordable as possible. The Propalin is quite expensive and, needs to be given twice daily. If the Suprelorin implant works, it is approximately one fifth the cost and she would only be treated once or at worst, twice a year. It just makes sense from every angle.

I have another girl with Addison's disease who is also medicated daily so I now have to factor in regular (and sizeable) vet bills, ones I certainly hadn't anticipated. With 9 dogs at home, I need to make sure they all get the treatment they need to be happy and healthy.

Thanks for your input becks. I'm glad the hebal supplement worked for one of your girls. That's one less to worry about. :D

w2s

[rose of tralee]

I've just flicked through fast to see mention of usual diet. Apples may not be apples of course....our old (13.5 yo) Dal improved to an extent I would not have thought possible with no other treatment when dry food and grains were removed. She remained dry apart from inconsequential amounts in a deep sleep until she died at 14.

Very taken by the idea of pelvic floor exercises.

[woody2shoes]

I've just flicked through fast to see mention of usual diet. Apples may not be apples of course....our old (13.5 yo) Dal improved to an extent I would not have thought possible with no other treatment when dry food and grains were removed. She remained dry apart from inconsequential amounts in a deep sleep until she died at 14.

Very taken by the idea of pelvic floor exercises.

In the early stages of trying to manage Gidget's incontinence, I changed my feeding regime - not so much her diet. I can't remove kibble altogether but I now feed her the bulk of her food in the morning and only a very small amount at night when I feed the others (just a token gesture). This means she needs less water prior to being indoors for the night. I also restrict how much water she has access too before bed. If she needs a drink, she can have one. I just don't let her stand there and drink copious amounts.

All those things have helped in the long run.

I agree - the pelvic floor idea is one I am definitely working on too!