So Whats The Answer ?

[Jed]

Government can ban the sale of pups from pet shops.

steve

So far we have been told that they source their puppies from puppy farms - they say they dont and Im not seeing any evidence to prove they are - Keeping in mind the definition of a puppy farm is someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions - though based on history and human nature I have no doubt that some do. Buying sick puny puppies is not good for business anyway.

Large shops source from puppy farms. That is the only way they can keep an constant supply of pups.

First - We need information on how much a pet shop makes out of a puppy sale - if its just the puppy we are looking at. Not what the buyer also buys to go with the puppy.

3 times purchase price for shops in busy shopping centres. 2 times purchase price in smaller centres. Small independent stores double the purchase price. If the pup has been there too long, price will reduce. Sllight difference between pure and x bred dogs, but that is the rule of thumb

Don't believe me? ir's easy to find out. Same way you would find out what any store pays for anything. You will find I am correct.

None of this is important, if RSPCA continues to push to ban puppy farms, the gov MAY ban the sale of pups from pet shops. Only way to do it. Without pet shops, half or more than half of puppy farms trade would disappear and if they were unprofitable, they would close. They are businesses, NOT dog lovers

Nothing will happen because the government will not grasp the nettle and ban the sales of pups in pet shops. Neither will the RSPCA push for it.

[SpikesPuppy]

How about, not banning puppies in pet shops (although that would be the ideal) but require them to work under a license and have a liason puppy sales expert on staff for all puppy sales. Someone to discuss the breeds available and assess their suitability etc.

Or at the very least, as in child care centers now, all staff must have minimum qualifications to process a puppy sale.

I would also like to see stricter rules brought in regarding how breeds are labelled, especially when it comes to the Husky/Malamute pups for example(someone buys a 'Husky' puppy that turns out to be a Malamute) and the Maremma pups sold as Golden Retrievers etc. Also mis-labeling of dogs as pure bred when they are not (saw Pure bred Poodles last week, then under that label in tiny typeset 'Toy x Mini'). I know there are channels available now but this kind of thing needs to stop getting through in the first place.

I mean, it would be illegal for me to sell 500g jars of peanut butter which were in reality only 300g. Why not the same when it comes to live animals??

[Steve]

Government can ban the sale of pups from pet shops.

steve

So far we have been told that they source their puppies from puppy farms - they say they dont and Im not seeing any evidence to prove they are - Keeping in mind the definition of a puppy farm is someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions - though based on history and human nature I have no doubt that some do. Buying sick puny puppies is not good for business anyway.

Large shops source from puppy farms. That is the only way they can keep an constant supply of pups.

First - We need information on how much a pet shop makes out of a puppy sale - if its just the puppy we are looking at. Not what the buyer also buys to go with the puppy.

3 times purchase price for shops in busy shopping centres. 2 times purchase price in smaller centres. Small independent stores double the purchase price. If the pup has been there too long, price will reduce. Sllight difference between pure and x bred dogs, but that is the rule of thumb

Don't believe me? ir's easy to find out. Same way you would find out what any store pays for anything. You will find I am correct.

None of this is important, if RSPCA continues to push to ban puppy farms, the gov MAY ban the sale of pups from pet shops. Only way to do it. Without pet shops, half or more than half of puppy farms trade would disappear and if they were unprofitable, they would close. They are businesses, NOT dog lovers

Nothing will happen because the government will not grasp the nettle and ban the sales of pups in pet shops. Neither will the RSPCA push for it.

Are you saying that the only way pet shops can source their puppies is by buying from someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions?

The RSPCA is not pushing to ban commercial breeders more than they are any other breeder. Law changes which have been promised to curb people breeding in sub standard conditions dont mention pet shops. Government can do anything but in this country before they do they will need to consider federal laws and facts and not emotive animal rights led propoganda which is so easy to refute.Way before they ban them they will introduce more laws to regulate them and take away the element of anonymity of the breeder in my opinion.

Either way other people can carry on if they like about more laws and chant "ban the sales of pets in pet shops" but Im not backing any law changes and Im looking for

alternatives for the purposes of this discussion.

[~Anne~]

Time we made friends with them.

Steve, I met a couple of pet shop representatives at a Clover Moore rally. They are objective in their views (as much as a pet shop owner can be) and seem to understand where many animal welfare enthusiasts are coming from. They are also willing to extend the olive branch it seems to sit down and discuss things. They actually care about the welfare of animals as much as anyone here does.

I haven't had contact with them for a long while, but I am happy to forward on some details to see if they may be able to assist in providing infomration about the things you are asking.

Email me if you want more detail.

[annette.tas]

I haven't read the whole thread as I'm in a rush (will do later), but I think requiring pet stores to conduct their puppy/kitten sales like a rehoming/adoption would be an alternative to indiscriminate sales, and much more likely to be accepted by retail organisations or whoever needs to enforce it.

Eg: pups/kittens to have min. first vacc + microchip, desexing voucher, printed medical history for each animal detailing treatments (worming, fleas, vet stuff), legal adoption contract that stipulates certain conditions such as 7 - 14 day grace period, and that the animal be offered/returned to the pet store at such time the owner can no longer keep/care for the animal.

I think this would encourage people to respect the 'buying' process more, and put off a lot of idiots. It also challenges the pet stores to take a more active role in screening buyers (eg. they wouldnt want the animal returned after a week of being at the wrong home).

These processes in themselves would put off many unscrupulous pet stores from selling puppies and kittens in the first place.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i do not think banning pet shop sales is the answer and we don't need more laws.

how do we know that some registered breeders aren't supplying pet shops?

i would prefer a closer liaison between the public, the authorities and breeders so the standard of puppies being sold was higher and their welfare was at the forefront for the life of the dog

[Sheridan]

Time we made friends with them.

Steve, I met a couple of pet shop representatives at a Clover Moore rally. They are objective in their views (as much as a pet shop owner can be) and seem to understand where many animal welfare enthusiasts are coming from. They are also willing to extend the olive branch it seems to sit down and discuss things. They actually care about the welfare of animals as much as anyone here does.

I haven't had contact with them for a long while, but I am happy to forward on some details to see if they may be able to assist in providing infomration about the things you are asking.

Email me if you want more detail.

As long as it doesn't infringe on their raking in the $$$, no doubt.

[~Anne~]

Time we made friends with them.

Steve, I met a couple of pet shop representatives at a Clover Moore rally. They are objective in their views (as much as a pet shop owner can be) and seem to understand where many animal welfare enthusiasts are coming from. They are also willing to extend the olive branch it seems to sit down and discuss things. They actually care about the welfare of animals as much as anyone here does.

I haven't had contact with them for a long while, but I am happy to forward on some details to see if they may be able to assist in providing infomration about the things you are asking.

Email me if you want more detail.

As long as it doesn't infringe on their raking in the $$$, no doubt.

Some people have the ability to look at profit and the care of animals Sheridan... rescuer, breeders and pet shops. Animals are sold for money in each and every case. And please don't try and tell me that none of them apart from the petshop owner thinks of the outlay vs income generated.

Edited November 16, 2010 by ~Anne~

[Nekhbet]

my biggest problems with pet stores is that they make animals look like another product. It;s in the window, but it and it's accessories WOW! Even comes with a warranty! What a sad society we are.

animals are complex creatures with their own needs. Those needs are not being in glass boxes during critical period.

As for toilet training problems - yes many do come with them especially PP pups crammed into tiny enclosures that have no choice but to learn to shit where they sleep and eat. If you have never seen a pet store pup with a problem then you have not seen enough dogs. I've seen plenty from puppy farms, pet stores and BYBers - aggressions, lack of understanding of basic canine body language which then snowballs into fear, anxiety, anti-social behaviours, no bite inhibition etc the list goes on. My own cousin owns a 'mini maltese' that is so panicked and freaked out from life in a box if you try and touch it the dog throws itself away. If anything changes it cannot cope. Yup, great pet.

A puppy or kitten is not a product, it needs to be outside with fresh air, exploring the world, feeling, touching, seeing, listening, running about. Not locked in an artificially lit environment with kids bashing on the glass and the only 'learning' they have is when the staff push them aside to clean or if a customer handles them. Many of these pups come from shitty breeders in the first place who cannot be bothered doing most things right then we cram then into a pet store until someone buys them or they get rotated around chain stores. No store will take a nervous pup off display that cannot handle its surroundings, no pet store will do some basic groundwork of toilet training puppies, bite inhibition and socialising with singletons etc yet they charge you more then someone who has. Look at many of the stores - they mainly focus on puppies and kittens and their 'accessories' are slim to none - again perpetuating the idea to the consumer all you need is puppy, food, leash, collar and it's all happy families. Eeeep WRONG.

I dont believe reg breeders should take the place of byb in pet store windows. If you they want a puppy or kitten people need to get off their lazy consumer arses and go research and find a breeder. Buy a pup or kitten from someone with pride in their breeding and animals that have lived like they should have, NOT like a product.

Pedigree breeders need to advertise more then they do, there also needs to be education about the benefits of pups raised in a home environment, basic training and socialisation done etc and people will see the value in it.

[SpikesPuppy]

i do not think banning pet shop sales is the answer and we don't need more laws.

how do we know that some registered breeders aren't supplying pet shops?

Some do, most definitely.

[Sheridan]

my biggest problems with pet stores is that they make animals look like another product. It;s in the window, but it and it's accessories WOW! Even comes with a warranty! What a sad society we are.

animals are complex creatures with their own needs. Those needs are not being in glass boxes during critical period.

As for toilet training problems - yes many do come with them especially PP pups crammed into tiny enclosures that have no choice but to learn to shit where they sleep and eat. If you have never seen a pet store pup with a problem then you have not seen enough dogs. I've seen plenty from puppy farms, pet stores and BYBers - aggressions, lack of understanding of basic canine body language which then snowballs into fear, anxiety, anti-social behaviours, no bite inhibition etc the list goes on. My own cousin owns a 'mini maltese' that is so panicked and freaked out from life in a box if you try and touch it the dog throws itself away. If anything changes it cannot cope. Yup, great pet.

A puppy or kitten is not a product, it needs to be outside with fresh air, exploring the world, feeling, touching, seeing, listening, running about. Not locked in an artificially lit environment with kids bashing on the glass and the only 'learning' they have is when the staff push them aside to clean or if a customer handles them. Many of these pups come from shitty breeders in the first place who cannot be bothered doing most things right then we cram then into a pet store until someone buys them or they get rotated around chain stores. No store will take a nervous pup off display that cannot handle its surroundings, no pet store will do some basic groundwork of toilet training puppies, bite inhibition and socialising with singletons etc yet they charge you more then someone who has. Look at many of the stores - they mainly focus on puppies and kittens and their 'accessories' are slim to none - again perpetuating the idea to the consumer all you need is puppy, food, leash, collar and it's all happy families. Eeeep WRONG.

I dont believe reg breeders should take the place of byb in pet store windows. If you they want a puppy or kitten people need to get off their lazy consumer arses and go research and find a breeder. Buy a pup or kitten from someone with pride in their breeding and animals that have lived like they should have, NOT like a product.

Pedigree breeders need to advertise more then they do, there also needs to be education about the benefits of pups raised in a home environment, basic training and socialisation done etc and people will see the value in it.

Wasn't there a thread recently about PP puppies lying in their own faeces? The apologists for pet shops don't seem to take into account the issues with the lack of socialisation before or after the poor creatures arrive in their glass cages.

[conztruct]

Don't know if it would work as there would be a lot of complexities to work out but I'm sure someone on here earlier suggested that maybe rather than pet shops having animals in the shop they can have advertisements, videos, pictures, etc and arrange the referrals to the supplier. This could include the full range of options and perhaps some information about things to know about all the different suppliers - I don't mean anything damaging or biased - just a few facts. The pet shop maybe gets a referral fee or the suppliers pay to be on their register.

Whilst this could potentially create a whole new raft of issues, the advantage I see is that the consumer would need to go to the supplier to purchase their animal. By seeing the environment that the animal comes from it may assist them in making a more informed decision, especially if they don't like what they see.

I have no idea if this even goes close to being an answer because I don't think it's that simple but it may do a little to reduce some of the impulsiveness of the impulse purchase.

The advantage for the pet shop is that they are not required to have the animals on-site and this would reduce some costs for them.

I think the solution is a whole range of things and never absolute but a lot of the suggestions and discussion have provided some methods that may help to chip away at the issues.

[aussielover]

The main problem I have with petshop animals is that they have not been raised in a loving family home, they are forced to sleep in their own urine and faeces, they get very limited opportunity to exercise and interact with people, all of which increases the likelihood of behaviour problems and potential "dumpage" later on.

I also see a lot of people with the attitude that they "rescued" a dog from a petshop.

Perhaps petshops only selling pound/rescue dogs would be the way to go BUT then would that just encourage more people to dump unwanted puppies/kittens/dogs etc at the pound????

The primary difference between a petshop/puppyfarm and a responsible breeder is that petshops and puppy farmers do it for the money, responsible breeder do it for the breed, money is a secondary concern.

A petshop and puppyfarm is a BUSINESS a responsible breeder usually breeds as a hobby (though they may be regisitered as a business as well)

[Nekhbet]

conztruct there are plenty of stores that stock no animals and do quite well. If people want a pet they are referred to the states breed club, registration body or website of breeders. Nothing wrong with that at all, in fact people may realise that there are more breeders then they think.

I often get people 'I looked for a registered breeder but couldnt find one at all' and then I zip them off at least a dozen breeders within a couple of hours drive from them ... Breed registries are NOT making breeders accessible enough. The fact that most people think dogs and cats come from the trading post or a pet shop unless you want a show dog is really sad. There are still so many that go 'oh it's only a pet, what does it matter'

what the heck do you registered breeders pay all your fees for then?

[SpikesPuppy]

conztruct there are plenty of stores that stock no animals and do quite well. If people want a pet they are referred to the states breed club, registration body or website of breeders. Nothing wrong with that at all, in fact people may realise that there are more breeders then they think.

I often get people 'I looked for a registered breeder but couldnt find one at all' and then I zip them off at least a dozen breeders within a couple of hours drive from them ... Breed registries are NOT making breeders accessible enough. The fact that most people think dogs and cats come from the trading post or a pet shop unless you want a show dog is really sad. There are still so many that go 'oh it's only a pet, what does it matter'

what the heck do you registered breeders pay all your fees for then?

Jack shit to put it simply. We get very little from out Canine Councils. Every year I pay my renewal (over $100), I sigh and wonder why I'm doing it.

The canine councils should get together with the pet stores and have a stand with their breed brochures on it. The pet shops could still get their money from mongrels but those seeking a pure bred could find one too.

You have to remember too that many people still do not use the Internet. I remember the classifieds being full of puppies for sale, many 'pure bred with papers' etc but these days, there's one or 2 puppy ads and that's it.

[shortstep]

referrals to the supplier. This could include the full range of options and perhaps some information about things to know about all the different suppliers -

Are breeders now to be called suppliers?

Or am I confused and do not understand what you are talking about and suppliers are something else?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

perhaps working with pet shops which sell puppies could mean that the puppies would be looked after appropriately taking into account their developmental requirements.

if the puppies were looked after better and they were good quality pups, would there still be an issues?

[Sheridan]

Jack shit to put it simply. We get very little from out Canine Councils. Every year I pay my renewal (over $100), I sigh and wonder why I'm doing it.

The canine councils should get together with the pet stores and have a stand with their breed brochures on it. The pet shops could still get their money from mongrels but those seeking a pure bred could find one too.

You have to remember too that many people still do not use the Internet. I remember the classifieds being full of puppies for sale, many 'pure bred with papers' etc but these days, there's one or 2 puppy ads and that's it.

It's more likely that if pet shops realise that purebreds are actually popular, they'll get that 'stock' from their puppyfarm suppliers.

[SpikesPuppy]

Jack shit to put it simply. We get very little from out Canine Councils. Every year I pay my renewal (over $100), I sigh and wonder why I'm doing it.

The canine councils should get together with the pet stores and have a stand with their breed brochures on it. The pet shops could still get their money from mongrels but those seeking a pure bred could find one too.

You have to remember too that many people still do not use the Internet. I remember the classifieds being full of puppies for sale, many 'pure bred with papers' etc but these days, there's one or 2 puppy ads and that's it.

It's more likely that if pet shops realise that purebreds are actually popular, they'll get that 'stock' from their puppyfarm suppliers.

Maybe. But I'd rather see the pure breeds in pet stores- at the very least they will be more predictable and theoretically less people will make the wrong choice.

Look, I don't like pet shops selling puppies (or kitties or goldfish or rats), but atthe same time, I am uncomfortable with bans on live animal sales etc. I really don't see why we as pure breed fanciers get to dictate where every puppy is sold or how it is bred (within reason) etc. Likewise, if someone wants a designer mongrel that is their choice and I don't believe I or anyone else has tw right to say no, that is wrong. I feelthat is elitist and wrong. Which is why I maintain that we need to promote our 'product' further and be more accessible and make the consumer decide to buy a pure breed puppy from a reputable source.

And NOT ALL pet store puppies are nutbags. We have owned 2 pet store dogs, the first a SWF who was nuts, full of temperament and health problems. But I cannot state with certainty that the temperament problems were not caused by our mismanagement and mistakes in raising him. The 2nd pet store dog was my Heart boy and a more loyal, loving, easygoing animal you could not find. He was calm, cool and collected even as a puppy. This is no to advocate pet stores but merely to try and erase the misconception that all pet shop puppies are feral mongrels with poor temperaments and mental problems etc.

Just thinking out loud, brainstorming ideas.

[Jed]

Government can ban the sale of pups from pet shops.

steve

So far we have been told that they source their puppies from puppy farms - they say they dont and Im not seeing any evidence to prove they are - Keeping in mind the definition of a puppy farm is someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions - though based on history and human nature I have no doubt that some do. Buying sick puny puppies is not good for business anyway.

Large shops source from puppy farms. That is the only way they can keep an constant supply of pups.

First - We need information on how much a pet shop makes out of a puppy sale - if its just the puppy we are looking at. Not what the buyer also buys to go with the puppy.

3 times purchase price for shops in busy shopping centres. 2 times purchase price in smaller centres. Small independent stores double the purchase price. If the pup has been there too long, price will reduce. Sllight difference between pure and x bred dogs, but that is the rule of thumb

Don't believe me? ir's easy to find out. Same way you would find out what any store pays for anything. You will find I am correct.

None of this is important, if RSPCA continues to push to ban puppy farms, the gov MAY ban the sale of pups from pet shops. Only way to do it. Without pet shops, half or more than half of puppy farms trade would disappear and if they were unprofitable, they would close. They are businesses, NOT dog lovers

Nothing will happen because the government will not grasp the nettle and ban the sales of pups in pet shops. Neither will the RSPCA push for it.

Are you saying that the only way pet shops can source their puppies is by buying from someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions? The RSPCA is not pushing to ban commercial breeders more than they are any other breeder. Law changes which have been promised to curb people breeding in sub standard conditions dont mention pet shops. Government can do anything but in this country before they do they will need to consider federal laws and facts and not emotive animal rights led propoganda which is so easy to refute.Way before they ban them they will introduce more laws to regulate them and take away the element of anonymity of the breeder in my opinion.

Either way other people can carry on if they like about more laws and chant "ban the sales of pets in pet shops" but Im not backing any law changes and Im looking for

alternatives for the purposes of this discussion.

In response to the piece I have bolded (above). That is not what I said, please re-read my post.

Headlines - all over Australia. RSPCA & Biosecurity Qld raid Kingaroy puppy farm - two hundred and something dogs seized. People on this forum fostered some of the dogs.

Ruth Schloss was a supplier to pet shops. Whether you consider this operation "substandard conditions" is your call.

I'm not chanting anything. My belief is that the sale of pups from pet shops should be banned for a whole lot of reasons which have already been discussed in this thread.. You asked for information, I gave it to you.