So Whats The Answer ?

[Steve]

There are so many elements to pet surrender. God it is overwhelming at times

I am sorry if this is off topic as this thread is specifically about pet shops; Though the surrender rate rises dramatically at certain times of the year. Christmas/New Year is the worst (At HP this went on until March) to say it was a living nightmare is very much an understatement, school holidays, Easter.

It is simply not a coincidence as it happens year after year. Hundreds and hundreds of great family pets.

A campaign is desperately needed in early November educating people to make arrangements for their pets while they are making arrangements for their holiday instead of leaving it to the day before, and dumping the dogs and cat.

Perhaps people can consider boarding, having a house sitter, a neighbor or family member minding the animals (I have done that 100 times for friends and family), hire a pet service to feed and exercise twice a day or consider pet friendly accommodation. Or if you're like me stay home as you are surrounded by animals.

Also other crucial education is to ensure chip details are up to date before you go away. I have seen so many dogs impounded where the details were out of date, the owners were away and not contactable. Some of these dogs only got out by the skin of their teeth, hours before pts when the owners returned and started looking.

This Christmas is probably a good time to begin a survey (If approved) I am not sure re reason for surrender, as many people are dishonest.

Call me skeptical though I find it hard to believe that there is a dramatic rise in surrenders during the holidays yet the same pathetic reasons for surrender are used. No one comes in and says "I am going on holidays and have made no arrangements for my pets"

The only time I have ever said something to someone surrendering their dog was when a guy came in with his dog, I found out as much a possible about the dog before taking her pic. He said "You will find a good home for her wont you" I was polite, though stated that pts was tomorrow, there were 20 other dogs on that list, so she would have to take her chances along with all of the others. He surrendered her, though to his credit he then came back 1 hour later and picked her up.

It is a great combination of things IMO that lead to the demise of family pets in pounds and shelters, all need to be addressed, and change is long overdue.

Nic Lots of questions and issues in this I want to talk about but in a minute I will put up a new topic to chat about this one as I think its a separate subject which deserves lots of space of its own.

[~Anne~]

I think you are saying that most surrenders to rescues are animals purchased from pet shops

yes but by question and answer as there is no compulsary chipping here in WA.

I don't know what the answer is, I really don't. I think in the last thread I said something like you can't control people...So even though no one wants more laws I am sorry but they are needed. If a dog is chipped to Joe Blog in a compulsary chipping programme then they are responsible and they should collect the dog/puppy and be responsible for the welfare of that animal.

Good breeders take care of their dogs and their puppies future and if the rest don't then someone needs to make them responsible.I don't care if they are the pure breed community, the backyard crew or the farmers, they should all be equally responsible for their own breeding. I don't know if the pet shops are responsible for all the deaths but they give an outlet for sale much like gumtree and other online sales rooms.

You know I was told yesterday that one particular pound were euthanaising 90 dogs today, that is bloody shocking, so whoever is breeding them need to be making sure they are going to a place they are loved and cared for. I am honestly trying to keep emotion out of this thread but gee it is hard.

Poor bloody dogs and the ones I feel for the most...the cross breeds that aren't cute and fluffy, the poor staffy cross, kelpie cross, bully cross cos they get the last chance which is often no chance and they die in their thousands every year. I know "pure" dogs die but they do have a much better chance as there is often someone looking for that particular type of dog.

Yes, I know exactly where you are coming from.

I deliberately keep trying to only look at the logic and not the emotional side because it is important that we find the answers and stop unneccessary killing, the throw-away mindset, and the demise of the purebred dog.

[~Anne~]

This" Us Vs THEM" IMO is where we all get ourselves in strife.Every one trying to not just see things done ethicaly,but to "bring tha bastards down" I believe pet shops CAN be run ethicaly,and no doubt some are.So why persecute all pet shops?

I do think its quite posible to work with pet shops,and them to work with ethical breeders,if creative thought is is used.

conztruct,

I agree with your 1st sentence,but the generalizations in your examples are hardly fair in the way this is worded.

You lump Registered ,ethical breeders into one very positive basket,that seems to insinuate all registerd breeders fit in there too.They don't automaticaly and there are many pure breeders telling their " consumers" anything about health,size and fitness to make a sale.Many of whom are motivated by profit.

These are the people who have repeatedly given ammo' to those persecuting pure breeders.

Them you lump all BYBs in the same category as puppy farmers or pet shops as being purely profit motivated and with no ethics or on going care.Sorry,but just because you will not hear about them on dole,does not mean they are non exsistent.Maybe harder to find,but these divisive attitudes are helping no one.So often you see newbies to DOL being crucified before they have a chance to learn better,.Wouldn't it be better if we can assume if they are interested enough to come here,its because of a genuine desire to learn?

In your pragraph where you ask,What is the solution?

I find your solution very offensive.

Who cares? Every one except the registered,ethical breeders who you insinuate includes ALL of the registerd breeders!

When registerd breeders can claim no one in their ranks is profit motivated,that all stock is clear of genetic health problems,that all puppy buyers are provided with on going care and life time guarantees etc,and includes no puppy farmers then people might listen to these arguments.

Attitudes like this are what is turning people away in droves from pure breed dogs,and great informative sites like DOL.It is elitist, arrogant and damaging.

The puppy industry should be very different re:protectionism.Otherwise it becomes nothing more than that..An industry.

Great realistic post!

[~Anne~]

This" Us Vs THEM" IMO is where we all get ourselves in strife.Every one trying to not just see things done ethicaly,but to "bring tha bastards down" I believe pet shops CAN be run ethicaly,and no doubt some are.So why persecute all pet shops?

I do think its quite posible to work with pet shops,and them to work with ethical breeders,if creative thought is is used.

conztruct,

I agree with your 1st sentence,but the generalizations in your examples are hardly fair in the way this is worded.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages.

My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders.

As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target.

I hope you have a lovely night

I took it more as a generalisation, not specific to you.

I know it is a hard biscuit to swallow, but it is partly truth and it is one reason why the purebred dogworld is in the decline it is. Obviously there are many other factors as well and please note, I have said it is one of, not 'the' reason.

[~Anne~]

There are so many elements to pet surrender. God it is overwhelming at times

I am sorry if this is off topic as this thread is specifically about pet shops; Though the surrender rate rises dramatically at certain times of the year. Christmas/New Year is the worst (At HP this went on until March) to say it was a living nightmare is very much an understatement, school holidays, Easter.

It is simply not a coincidence as it happens year after year. Hundreds and hundreds of great family pets.

A campaign is desperately needed in early November educating people to make arrangements for their pets while they are making arrangements for their holiday instead of leaving it to the day before, and dumping the dogs and cat.

Perhaps people can consider boarding, having a house sitter, a neighbor or family member minding the animals (I have done that 100 times for friends and family), hire a pet service to feed and exercise twice a day or consider pet friendly accommodation. Or if you’re like me stay home as you are surrounded by animals.

Also other crucial education is to ensure chip details are up to date before you go away. I have seen so many dogs impounded where the details were out of date, the owners were away and not contactable. Some of these dogs only got out by the skin of their teeth, hours before pts when the owners returned and started looking.

This Christmas is probably a good time to begin a survey (If approved) I am not sure re reason for surrender, as many people are dishonest.

Call me skeptical though I find it hard to believe that there is a dramatic rise in surrenders during the holidays yet the same pathetic reasons for surrender are used. No one comes in and says “I am going on holidays and have made no arrangements for my pets”

The only time I have ever said something to someone surrendering their dog was when a guy came in with his dog, I found out as much a possible about the dog before taking her pic. He said “You will find a good home for her wont you” I was polite, though stated that pts was tomorrow, there were 20 other dogs on that list, so she would have to take her chances along with all of the others. He surrendered her, though to his credit he then came back 1 hour later and picked her up.

It is a great combination of things IMO that lead to the demise of family pets in pounds and shelters, all need to be addressed, and change is long overdue.

Another great post. I so agree about the need for a campaign around this time of year to educate about alternatives.

[Shmurps]

Agreed.

Then we will have the Xmas present puppy that no one wants when the holidays are over or when the next holidays come along.

Pet shops do have more pups in the window in December.

[SpikesPuppy]

One idea that keeps tossing around half formed in my brain is the idea of a 'pet finder service' offered by Pet stores. It could have several roles (which may be conflicting I guess - as I said half formed) - where the breeder (a) acts as a 'broker' putting the pet buyer in touch with breeders through listings at their store, with the breeder perhaps paying a fee for the listing or a percentage of sales, or alternately (b) they provide a service to owners where they help match them with a suitable pet ('find the right pet for your lifestyle - let us help you etc etc), then provide them with contacts to purchase the pets. Whether the buyer would pay a fee to the pet store for the service, and/or the breeder pays a fee for a listing or referral to them I don't know. I gues wht I am thinking of is a system where the breeder is known and maintains control of the pups, but the pet store acts as a paid 'go between'.

Havent read anything yet but I believe something similar exists. We had someone enquire about smooth collies who had been directed to the breed by a 'pet match maker', someone who visited them at their home and discussed the various breeds etc then gave them contacts to investigate.

I wonder if something like this could take off?? Someone who helps you out from choosing the breed to bringing Puppy home?!

[Cosmolo]

Spikespuppy, there are services like that (including one that we do) but they rely pretty heavily on referral from places where people go to purchase a pet because you need to get in before they have the pup. Problem is, the breeders i have spoken to would not support it and the pet shops selling animals certainly wouldn't- even with kick backs.

[moosmum]

This" Us Vs THEM" IMO is where we all get ourselves in strife.Every one trying to not just see things done ethicaly,but to "bring tha bastards down" I believe pet shops CAN be run ethicaly,and no doubt some are.So why persecute all pet shops?

I do think its quite posible to work with pet shops,and them to work with ethical breeders,if creative thought is is used.

conztruct,

I agree with your 1st sentence,but the generalizations in your examples are hardly fair in the way this is worded.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages.

My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders.

As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target.

I hope you have a lovely night

[Steve]

Spikespuppy, there are services like that (including one that we do) but they rely pretty heavily on referral from places where people go to purchase a pet because you need to get in before they have the pup. Problem is, the breeders i have spoken to would not support it and the pet shops selling animals certainly wouldn't- even with kick backs.

we would support it and Im aware of many pet shops which would go with it too - we can always fix that if we decide its a good approach anyway

Edited November 15, 2010 by Steve

[SpikesPuppy]

Spikespuppy, there are services like that (including one that we do) but they rely pretty heavily on referral from places where people go to purchase a pet because you need to get in before they have the pup. Problem is, the breeders i have spoken to would not support it and the pet shops selling animals certainly wouldn't- even with kick backs.

we would support it and Im aware of many pet shops which would go with it too - we can always fix that if we decide its a good approach anyway

Out of curiosity, Cosmolo, have you advertised the service anywhere??

Perhaps advertising on sites like DOL, the relevant CCs, PetLink, in the papers etc. Put up a few signs in vets, local supermarkets etc. Make it accessible to everyday Joe.

I had never heard of anything like it until this person mentioned it when asking about Smooths.

Why do breeders necessarily need to support it? Even helping someone to choose the right breed of dog will IMO reduce the number of dumped animals. Choosing the right breed is the first step to a happy relationship with your dog.

I would support it 110% for the record.

[moosmum]

This" Us Vs THEM" IMO is where we all get ourselves in strife.Every one trying to not just see things done ethicaly,but to "bring tha bastards down" I believe pet shops CAN be run ethicaly,and no doubt some are.So why persecute all pet shops?

I do think its quite posible to work with pet shops,and them to work with ethical breeders,if creative thought is is used.

conztruct,

I agree with your 1st sentence,but the generalizations in your examples are hardly fair in the way this is worded.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages.

My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders.

As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target.

I hope you have a lovely night

Sorry Conztruct, that you took my reply so personaly.Yes,it is a frustrating situation,and we all tend to be blunt to get our message accross with out confusing the readers.

However,I did find your solution an offensive one,and set out to explain why.

I did not label you,but the attitudes that I do see as dangerous.

My assuptions about what you seemed to be insinuating seemed to me fair given the way you set it out in black and white.

We all have to be so careful that what we say,me included.

Its not my intention to belittle you,but point out a too common problem here that drives away the very people we hope to educate and brings division so that the dog world is fractured with every one working against every one else.

[conztruct]

This" Us Vs THEM" IMO is where we all get ourselves in strife.Every one trying to not just see things done ethicaly,but to "bring tha bastards down" I believe pet shops CAN be run ethicaly,and no doubt some are.So why persecute all pet shops?

I do think its quite posible to work with pet shops,and them to work with ethical breeders,if creative thought is is used.

conztruct,

I agree with your 1st sentence,but the generalizations in your examples are hardly fair in the way this is worded.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages.

My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders.

As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target.

I hope you have a lovely night

Sorry Conztruct, that you took my reply so personaly.Yes,it is a frustrating situation,and we all tend to be blunt to get our message accross with out confusing the readers.

However,I did find your solution an offensive one,and set out to explain why.

I did not label you,but the attitudes that I do see as dangerous.

My assuptions about what you seemed to be insinuating seemed to me fair given the way you set it out in black and white.

We all have to be so careful that what we say,me included.

Its not my intention to belittle you,but point out a too common problem here that drives away the very people we hope to educate and brings division so that the dog world is fractured with every one working against every one else.

No need to apologise - no offence taken. The only reason I said anything was due to the elitist, arrogant tag which I didn't necessarily find offensive but wanted to quickly correct.

I always make it my policy to check my assumptions (whether I perceive them to be fair or not) are indeed correct but everyone works differently - the assumptions you made were not correct and do not reflect my opinion and I did not want to be "guilty" by association in relation to your general comments in the response.

I apologise to all the other posters for the completely OT post.

I think the decline in the purebred dog world (which is a hobby basically for most except a few of the larger scale more professional breeders) is largely a sign of the times and something that is being experienced in a whole range of areas. A lot of people are very impulsive now and aren't prepared to research, don't want to wait and let's face it are looking for the best price too. I don't think it's so much anything people who supply dogs of any kind are doing right or wrong, but just the way people are now - educating them to behave differently is extremely difficult because you are looking at changing a culture that is facilitated in just about every aspect of society now.

[SilverHaze]

There are a number of issues i see standing in the way of there ever being a solution that is satisfactory to all.

Firstly registered ethical breeders are just not breeding enough. The supply of "good" dogs just isn't there. Until there is a much greater supply, there will always be a large market for puppy farmers/byb/pet shops.

And that large market will still be there even if we do breed more, for the simply fact that a large amount of the people who go looking for a pet, probably shouldn't be getting one in the first place. Or they have their heart set on a completly unsuitable breed/species, and it doesn't matter what anyone says - they will obtain that pet.

You can't have your cake and eat it too unfortuantly - you can't have the whole population going to registered ethical breeders, only for them to be told you can't have one of our dogs. So someone has to give. And i won't give on where my puppies go.

You can make it as desirable as possible for the general public to want a pure bred dog, but if they can't obtain that dog - in time they will begin to look else where.

Sorry if this doesn't offer any solutions - i think you can minimise the problem to a certain extent, but you will never be able to get rid of pet shops/byb/puppy farms altogether because they will always have a market - and so the cycle continues

[Souff]

Silverhaze,

It might not offer any solutions, but it makes a whole lot of sense and might help some to understand the bigger picture.

Souff

[moosmum]

This" Us Vs THEM" IMO is where we all get ourselves in strife.Every one trying to not just see things done ethicaly,but to "bring tha bastards down" I believe pet shops CAN be run ethicaly,and no doubt some are.So why persecute all pet shops?

I do think its quite posible to work with pet shops,and them to work with ethical breeders,if creative thought is is used.

conztruct,

I agree with your 1st sentence,but the generalizations in your examples are hardly fair in the way this is worded.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages.

My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders.

As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target.

I hope you have a lovely night

Sorry Conztruct, that you took my reply so personaly.Yes,it is a frustrating situation,and we all tend to be blunt to get our message accross with out confusing the readers.

However,I did find your solution an offensive one,and set out to explain why.

I did not label you,but the attitudes that I do see as dangerous.

My assuptions about what you seemed to be insinuating seemed to me fair given the way you set it out in black and white.

We all have to be so careful that what we say,me included.

Its not my intention to belittle you,but point out a too common problem here that drives away the very people we hope to educate and brings division so that the dog world is fractured with every one working against every one else.

No need to apologise - no offence taken. The only reason I said anything was due to the elitist, arrogant tag which I didn't necessarily find offensive but wanted to quickly correct.

I always make it my policy to check my assumptions (whether I perceive them to be fair or not) are indeed correct but everyone works differently - the assumptions you made were not correct and do not reflect my opinion and I did not want to be "guilty" by association in relation to your general comments in the response.

I apologise to all the other posters for the completely OT post.

I think the decline in the purebred dog world (which is a hobby basically for most except a few of the larger scale more professional breeders) is largely a sign of the times and something that is being experienced in a whole range of areas. A lot of people are very impulsive now and aren't prepared to research, don't want to wait and let's face it are looking for the best price too. I don't think it's so much anything people who supply dogs of any kind are doing right or wrong, but just the way people are now - educating them to behave differently is extremely difficult because you are looking at changing a culture that is facilitated in just about every aspect of society now.

I agree,and think most of the issues being discussed come back to changing peoples attitudes and how they see pets as more acessories than living beings with their own personalities, needs and and at the risk of sounding anthropmorphic,feelings.

[SpikesPuppy]

There are a number of issues i see standing in the way of there ever being a solution that is satisfactory to all.

Firstly registered ethical breeders are just not breeding enough. The supply of "good" dogs just isn't there. Until there is a much greater supply, there will always be a large market for puppy farmers/byb/pet shops.

And that large market will still be there even if we do breed more, for the simply fact that a large amount of the people who go looking for a pet, probably shouldn't be getting one in the first place. Or they have their heart set on a completly unsuitable breed/species, and it doesn't matter what anyone says - they will obtain that pet.

You can't have your cake and eat it too unfortuantly - you can't have the whole population going to registered ethical breeders, only for them to be told you can't have one of our dogs. So someone has to give. And i won't give on where my puppies go.

You can make it as desirable as possible for the general public to want a pure bred dog, but if they can't obtain that dog - in time they will begin to look else where.

Sorry if this doesn't offer any solutions - i think you can minimise the problem to a certain extent, but you will never be able to get rid of pet shops/byb/puppy farms altogether because they will always have a market - and so the cycle continues

Very well said!!!

Sad but true.

[Steve]

I think - if we stop making them feel they are constantly under attack causing them to get mad and dig the heels in we should take a wider view of it.

The goal is to have pet shops stop selling live animals.

So far we have been told that they source their puppies from puppy farms - they say they dont and Im not seeing any evidence to prove they are - Keeping in mind the definition of a puppy farm is someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions - though based on history and human nature I have no doubt that some do. Buying sick puny puppies is not good for business anyway.

First - We need information on how much a pet shop makes out of a puppy sale - if its just the puppy we are looking at. Not what the buyer also buys to go with the puppy.

Then we need to reward and promote those pet shops which dont sell live animals unless the breeder is involved in the sale.

We need to look at ways we can generate business for pet shops to replace the money they are making from selling live animals.

For those who refuse to budge we need to put together strategies to try to cover some of the things they would normally get if they were purchasing from a breeder.

Ive got lots of ideas on what these can be but I dont think banging a drum and screeching for new laws to stop sales of live pets in pet shops backed up by figures which are at best guesswork and easily refuted is the answer.

Time we made friends with them.

[moosmum]

I think - if we stop making them feel they are constantly under attack causing them to get mad and dig the heels in we should take a wider view of it.

The goal is to have pet shops stop selling live animals.

So far we have been told that they source their puppies from puppy farms - they say they dont and Im not seeing any evidence to prove they are - Keeping in mind the definition of a puppy farm is someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions - though based on history and human nature I have no doubt that some do. Buying sick puny puppies is not good for business anyway.

First - We need information on how much a pet shop makes out of a puppy sale - if its just the puppy we are looking at. Not what the buyer also buys to go with the puppy.

Then we need to reward and promote those pet shops which dont sell live animals unless the breeder is involved in the sale.

We need to look at ways we can generate business for pet shops to replace the money they are making from selling live animals.

For those who refuse to budge we need to put together strategies to try to cover some of the things they would normally get if they were purchasing from a breeder.

Ive got lots of ideas on what these can be but I dont think banging a drum and screeching for new laws to stop sales of live pets in pet shops backed up by figures which are at best guesswork and easily refuted is the answer.

Time we made friends with them.

I agree.

Besides,divide and conquer is working too well for those who want to impose ever more legislation.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I think - if we stop making them feel they are constantly under attack causing them to get mad and dig the heels in we should take a wider view of it.

The goal is to have pet shops stop selling live animals.

So far we have been told that they source their puppies from puppy farms - they say they dont and Im not seeing any evidence to prove they are - Keeping in mind the definition of a puppy farm is someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions - though based on history and human nature I have no doubt that some do. Buying sick puny puppies is not good for business anyway.

First - We need information on how much a pet shop makes out of a puppy sale - if its just the puppy we are looking at. Not what the buyer also buys to go with the puppy.

Then we need to reward and promote those pet shops which dont sell live animals unless the breeder is involved in the sale.

We need to look at ways we can generate business for pet shops to replace the money they are making from selling live animals.

For those who refuse to budge we need to put together strategies to try to cover some of the things they would normally get if they were purchasing from a breeder.

Ive got lots of ideas on what these can be but I dont think banging a drum and screeching for new laws to stop sales of live pets in pet shops backed up by figures which are at best guesswork and easily refuted is the answer.

Time we made friends with them.

I agree.

Besides,divide and conquer is working too well for those who want to impose ever more legislation.

x3