So Whats The Answer ?

[Steve]

I totally agree with Anne we need to find out for what reason Joe Public is prepared to part with MORE money than what a pure bred would cost from a registered breeder as well as NO PED CERT....WHY do they do that

Not enough promotion of Pure Bred dogs? BYBer ads easier to find in papers and on supermarket ad boards

They have no idea they can get a pup from a registered breeder for less money and with vet certs for parents, I tell them as I cruise around places like PP.

There is NOT enough promotion of pure breeds except the bad promotion last year. On here...sure...it is a pure breed forum, we all know and love dogs and many of us know breeders and have seen the dogs strutting their stuff.

I will help anyone to find a rescue dog and I will help anyone looking to buy a pure breed, if I don't know the breeders of a particular breed then I will ask other breeders I know and trust who will. The problem is in this instant society people are not prepared to wait and honestly can't understand why they need to wait for a puppy. They don't care about the poor bitch in a cage mated every season...they just see the cute puppy in a glass cage and want it much as they want the latest gadget for the kitchen.

There needs to be more public awareness about farms, pet shops and the pure breed community to assist people to make the right choices.

We need to stop this dumpathon of dogs or at least slow it down.

But they cant get a pup from a registered breeder because we have been breeding less and less and our supply goes no where near the demand.

If purebred breeders are dumped on and accused of puppy farming if they have more than a certain number, if they have more litters than a certain number etc .If council planning laws and mandatory codes make it virtually impossible for small breeders to flourish and keep our dogs in condition we as breeder feel is more suitable to the species then there never will be.

Stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops isnt about going to stop people from dumping dogs if stats from AWL are typical.

Stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops isnt going to stop people who breed puppies in sub standard conditions

Stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops isnt going to make people want our dogs more and if they did we dont have them to sell them anyway.

So lets look at why we dont want puppies sold in pet shops realistically and not because of what we have been peddled.

1. Puppies in pet shops are kept in poor conditions. - Are they? There are regulations for the pen sizes and everything else is pretty much sorted regarding how they are kept and fed and watered whilst in the shop and its not in the shop's best interest in numerous ways to have them kept in poor conditions.

2. It encourages impulse sales - maybe but any place where people can look at a puppy before they buy it can be accused of this.Rescue especially push the concept of buying a dog because you are "saving " it and both operate at least partially on people wanting to take them home to make its life better. One of the recommendations for rescue dogs is to move them into more high built areas to allow the public to see them and many are marketed to push sympathy buttons. Any place including breeders who offer puppies at 8 weeks of age will see a percentage of impulse sales. Breeders know that if someone comes to their homes to look at puppies which are ready to go especially if they have kids with them they will probably go home with a puppy.I dont think impulse sales are unique to pet shops but there is a probablitity because they are in retail areas with foot traffic that the potential for an impulse buy is increased.

3. They buy puppies in poor condition, poorly bred from puppy farmers [those who breed puppies in substandard conditions]. They say they dont that they buy healthy puppies from breeders who are out in the open and complying with mandatory codes and planning laws. In all liklihood some do buy puppies from breeders who cut corners and who breed puppies in sub standard conditions but thats not intheir best interests. Buying sick or un socilised puppies wont keep them in business very long.

this is the one reason most often push as the major reason for stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops in the belief that if we take away that market and make it more difficult for a breeder to sell their stock that they will breed less. I personally think that they will still breed them and simply sell them to different places with different methods and the public will go with them because the demand is still the same. I also think that if mass produced puppies are sold in pet shops rather than out of the back of car boots or from the front offices of battery dog farms there is at least some protection that the pups are parasite free,clean vaccinated, microchipped etc

4. That Puppies which are purchased from pet shops are more likely to end up in pounds. There are few stats available but the ones that are clearly show that this is not the case from at least one shelter [awl ].Whats more if we are going to use this as a valid reason for being against sales of puppies in pet shops then we also have to use it as an argument against people who sell rescue dogs because the stats of these are more than double pet shop sales in that shelter.

5. That the buyer is not educated on what the pup will grow into and they are likely to be living with a dog with management requirements as it grows into an adult which they didnt anticipate. This is one of my big ones - however the same can be said of a rescue pup who's parents are unknown being sold by a rescue group,any cross bred or mixed breed sold by anyone under any conditions.

6. That the transaction is motivated by profit - a quick sale - move em in move em out. But breeders and rescue are each as vulnerable to this as any pet shop is. I know breeders who get pretty desperate to move em out at 8 weeks who hand them over to the first person who turns up.They may not be as motivated to get the money[arguable] but they most definitely can be motivated by finding new homes and getting them moved as much as any pet shop. Moving them out quickly because they can then save another or moving them out quickly because they dont want to be stuck with them without the proper education and screening still brings the same results.Some going into homes where the buyer had no real idea of what they were getting. Breeders and rescue are not necessarily immune to being motivated to make money.

7. That they dont screen their buyers to ensure they really do have adequate fencing and the lifestyle suited to the dog they are choosing.

this is probably a valid argument however, this may be just exactly the reason why people buy a puppy from a pet store over rescue and breeders in the first place.

Lots of breeders dont screen their puppy buyers either - and if AWL are screening their buyers that screening isnt working in preventing surrenders.

8. that the buyer has no contact with the breeder - assuming the breeder is prepared to offer a post sale service and assuming the buyer wants contact with the breeder. The reality is that most breeders dont want to,they dont have to and that goes for registered breeders as well as any other breeder.It is not part of the regs or codes of ethics. If you stop breeders selling pups to pet shops you will still not see those breeders offering after sales service. There are vets, trainers, other breeders, internet forums books etc to replace the breeder in that regard anyway.If something goes wrong even if the breeder does offer support for this many buyers will dodge the breeder if they cant keep them ,they can rehome them without help from a third party or they can place them with a rescue group.Lots of rescue groups dont want the breeders to be part of "saving" their own anyway

So promoting purebreds because they are preditible and it allows people to choose an animal most suited to their lifestyle and therefore less likely to be something they are not prepared for or not being compatible with - no surprises with management issues etc but thats assuming that they do their homework and consider this too before they buy. It can and does still go wrong and people find they cant stand the dog but the risks are lowered. We still have a problem in that we cannot suppy the demand.

if we promote the idea that people should assess their lifestyles and choose a breed which is most likely to be compatible who will breed these compatible breeds of dog?

[Nic.B]

Quote;

‘I totally agree with Anne we need to find out for what reason Joe Public is prepared to part with MORE money than what a pure bred would cost from a registered breeder as well as NO PED CERT....WHY do they do that

Not enough promotion of Pure Bred dogs? BYBer ads easier to find in papers and on supermarket ad boards?’

Think about where pet shops are placed – Major shopping centers, In retail areas of suburbs. Don’t know of any that are out in the middle of nowhere.

Then put cute little puppies right in the front window, so that they can look into the eyes of all who walk past and draw them in, especially children, who then take their parents in. Some people actually believe they are “rescuing’ these puppies and kittens!

Byb’s often sell from the side of the road. Last year I drove past a home only 1km from where I live. Main road, with a ute, cage and 10 lab/kelpie puppies for sale for $50 each on the medium strip a week before Christmas. No Vacc’s, no chips, thin, wormy puppies (I stopped and spoke with them)

At my small local shop I saw a familiar lady who was selling malt x puppies from the back of her car. She sent her 7 children out to ask people if they would like to buy a puppy. Don’t know how much they were, I was numb after being at the pound all day and just had to keep going for my own sanity.

RSPCA have set up a retail out let for their animals. It is wonderful to see families oooing and arrring over recued pets instead of PP just down the way.

The animals are beautifully set up, vet worked, temp tested, have play areas and areas they can retreat to if they feel they need it.

They offer education, advice and take the dogs for walks through the centre to socialise/exercise the dogs, promote and educate people about rescued pets. It’s brilliant! The animals do not stay there overnight and they are open 7 days a week.

It’s working, they plan to set up others just like it in different areas.

[Shmurps]

There is a horrid shop near us. This woman is a BYB and has a network of breeders. I call them underground breeders.

It's one of those places that have terrible signage, windows half covered in newspaper, black boards with this weeks special.

She has been reported several times and a few by me. She has had 100's of complaints and cruelty charges against her in the past yet she is still allows to trade.

Council and animal welfare have been out there 2 or 3 times ,to my knowledge, and last year I was told they were taking her to court to be closed down. I contacted them a few months later to find out when this was going to court and was told it was no longer going to happen.

Last time I went in there, there were over 30 pups all jammed in the display cages. Mainly working breed crosses, SBT crosses and god only know what the others were.

The windows were covered in feces, a rabbit in a tiny hutch with no hay a dirty bowl of water and the ammonia stench was toxic. I was trying to take photo's with my phone but they didn't work.

[~Anne~]

But they cant get a pup from a registered breeder because we have been breeding less and less and our supply goes no where near the demand.

If purebred breeders are dumped on and accused of puppy farming if they have more than a certain number, if they have more litters than a certain number etc .If council planning laws and mandatory codes make it virtually impossible for small breeders to flourish and keep our dogs in condition we as breeder feel is more suitable to the species then there never will be.

Stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops isnt about going to stop people from dumping dogs if stats from AWL are typical.

Stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops isnt going to stop people who breed puppies in sub standard conditions

Stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops isnt going to make people want our dogs more and if they did we dont have them to sell them anyway.

So lets look at why we dont want puppies sold in pet shops realistically and not because of what we have been peddled.

1. Puppies in pet shops are kept in poor conditions. - Are they? There are regulations for the pen sizes and everything else is pretty much sorted regarding how they are kept and fed and watered whilst in the shop and its not in the shop's best interest in numerous ways to have them kept in poor conditions.

2. It encourages impulse sales - maybe but any place where people can look at a puppy before they buy it can be accused of this.Rescue especially push the concept of buying a dog because you are "saving " it and both operate at least partially on people wanting to take them home to make its life better. One of the recommendations for rescue dogs is to move them into more high built areas to allow the public to see them and many are marketed to push sympathy buttons. Any place including breeders who offer puppies at 8 weeks of age will see a percentage of impulse sales. Breeders know that if someone comes to their homes to look at puppies which are ready to go especially if they have kids with them they will probably go home with a puppy.I dont think impulse sales are unique to pet shops but there is a probablitity because they are in retail areas with foot traffic that the potential for an impulse buy is increased.

3. They buy puppies in poor condition, poorly bred from puppy farmers [those who breed puppies in substandard conditions]. They say they dont that they buy healthy puppies from breeders who are out in the open and complying with mandatory codes and planning laws. In all liklihood some do buy puppies from breeders who cut corners and who breed puppies in sub standard conditions but thats not intheir best interests. Buying sick or un socilised puppies wont keep them in business very long.

this is the one reason most often push as the major reason for stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops in the belief that if we take away that market and make it more difficult for a breeder to sell their stock that they will breed less. I personally think that they will still breed them and simply sell them to different places with different methods and the public will go with them because the demand is still the same. I also think that if mass produced puppies are sold in pet shops rather than out of the back of car boots or from the front offices of battery dog farms there is at least some protection that the pups are parasite free,clean vaccinated, microchipped etc

4. That Puppies which are purchased from pet shops are more likely to end up in pounds. There are few stats available but the ones that are clearly show that this is not the case from at least one shelter [awl ].Whats more if we are going to use this as a valid reason for being against sales of puppies in pet shops then we also have to use it as an argument against people who sell rescue dogs because the stats of these are more than double pet shop sales in that shelter.

5. That the buyer is not educated on what the pup will grow into and they are likely to be living with a dog with management requirements as it grows into an adult which they didnt anticipate. This is one of my big ones - however the same can be said of a rescue pup who's parents are unknown being sold by a rescue group,any cross bred or mixed breed sold by anyone under any conditions.

6. That the transaction is motivated by profit - a quick sale - move em in move em out. But breeders and rescue are each as vulnerable to this as any pet shop is. I know breeders who get pretty desperate to move em out at 8 weeks who hand them over to the first person who turns up.They may not be as motivated to get the money[arguable] but they most definitely can be motivated by finding new homes and getting them moved as much as any pet shop. Moving them out quickly because they can then save another or moving them out quickly because they dont want to be stuck with them without the proper education and screening still brings the same results.Some going into homes where the buyer had no real idea of what they were getting. Breeders and rescue are not necessarily immune to being motivated to make money.

7. That they dont screen their buyers to ensure they really do have adequate fencing and the lifestyle suited to the dog they are choosing.

this is probably a valid argument however, this may be just exactly the reason why people buy a puppy from a pet store over rescue and breeders in the first place.

Lots of breeders dont screen their puppy buyers either - and if AWL are screening their buyers that screening isnt working in preventing surrenders.

8. that the buyer has no contact with the breeder - assuming the breeder is prepared to offer a post sale service and assuming the buyer wants contact with the breeder. The reality is that most breeders dont want to,they dont have to and that goes for registered breeders as well as any other breeder.It is not part of the regs or codes of ethics. If you stop breeders selling pups to pet shops you will still not see those breeders offering after sales service. There are vets, trainers, other breeders, internet forums books etc to replace the breeder in that regard anyway.If something goes wrong even if the breeder does offer support for this many buyers will dodge the breeder if they cant keep them ,they can rehome them without help from a third party or they can place them with a rescue group.Lots of rescue groups dont want the breeders to be part of "saving" their own anyway

So promoting purebreds because they are preditible and it allows people to choose an animal most suited to their lifestyle and therefore less likely to be something they are not prepared for or not being compatible with - no surprises with management issues etc but thats assuming that they do their homework and consider this too before they buy. It can and does still go wrong and people find they cant stand the dog but the risks are lowered. We still have a problem in that we cannot suppy the demand.

if we promote the idea that people should assess their lifestyles and choose a breed which is most likely to be compatible who will breed these compatible breeds of dog?

I totally agree. In short - there simply does not appear to be any evidence to support a lot of claims made against pet shops.

It may be an abhorrent thought to many breeders, but is it possible that breeders could work with petshops? Rescues are now beginning to.

Sure, there are bad pet shops and these need to be stopped. Pet shops buying bulk from breeders whose operations mean the adult dogs are kept in abusive situtations and the puppies produced are possible genetic time bombs should also be eliminated.

Why can't we work with the industry to ensure the pups they sell and good quality registered pure bred dogs?

Why can't they sell a puppy after qualifying a potential home just like a rescuer or a good breeder does?

Why can't the current status quo be changed?

Imagine if pet shops only sold pure bred registered dogs.

Quote;

‘I totally agree with Anne we need to find out for what reason Joe Public is prepared to part with MORE money than what a pure bred would cost from a registered breeder as well as NO PED CERT....WHY do they do that

Not enough promotion of Pure Bred dogs? BYBer ads easier to find in papers and on supermarket ad boards?’

Think about where pet shops are placed – Major shopping centers, In retail areas of suburbs. Don’t know of any that are out in the middle of nowhere.

Then put cute little puppies right in the front window, so that they can look into the eyes of all who walk past and draw them in, especially children, who then take their parents in. Some people actually believe they are “rescuing’ these puppies and kittens!

Byb’s often sell from the side of the road. Last year I drove past a home only 1km from where I live. Main road, with a ute, cage and 10 lab/kelpie puppies for sale for $50 each on the medium strip a week before Christmas. No Vacc’s, no chips, thin, wormy puppies (I stopped and spoke with them)

At my small local shop I saw a familiar lady who was selling malt x puppies from the back of her car. She sent her 7 children out to ask people if they would like to buy a puppy. Don’t know how much they were, I was numb after being at the pound all day and just had to keep going for my own sanity.

RSPCA have set up a retail out let for their animals. It is wonderful to see families oooing and arrring over recued pets instead of PP just down the way.

The animals are beautifully set up, vet worked, temp tested, have play areas and areas they can retreat to if they feel they need it.

They offer education, advice and take the dogs for walks through the centre to socialise/exercise the dogs, promote and educate people about rescued pets. It’s brilliant! The animals do not stay there overnight and they are open 7 days a week.

It’s working, they plan to set up others just like it in different areas.

Why can't the same be done with purebred pups?

[Nic.B]

Quote;

'Why can't the same be done with purebred pups? '

I am not sure which part of my post you are refering to Anne?

I have only ever seen/experienced pet shops in high retail areas. The rspca centre is the first of it's kind in a high retail area.

I have never seen anything else, so am unable to compare.

The RSPCA retail rehoming centre, are not buying BYB puppies or farmed puppies for $35 each and adding massive mark ups, as pet shops do. They are not supporting a market where people simply profit and cut corners to maximise their profit. The dogs are already needing a home, fully vet worked, temp tested, have follow up support, have a screening process etc.

They offer proactive education and advice for anyone entering the centre for their own pets as well.

There is no reason why purebreed pups cant be represented the same way, nor other rescue orgs promoting their dogs in the same way. Though it would certainly need to be a great step above what your average pet shop offers if you have the very best interests of the animals at heart and want to move forward for the welfare of companion animals.

The RSPCA centre has a small range of dogs and cats. The puppies ranged from 12 weeks through to adults 5 years of age. There were 6 in total small/ large/ medium breeds. There are no tiny faces pleading through the window.

It was a great mix. The same with the cats and kittens, two littlies and two lovely adult cats.

[Cosmolo]

There is no way that the critical period socialisation needs of puppies are adequately provided for in a pet shop. When i refer to the poor conditions of pet shop pups- this is the biggest thing for me.

In addition, pet shop pups are often harder to train- generally with things like handling- and specifically with something like toilet training.

The information regarding #'s of pet shop pups surrendered should be available- its a question on every surrender form i have ever seen, and i have seen a few.

[~Anne~]

Sorry Nic, I mean in general. Why can't purebred pups be sold from a shop front (aka a pet shop) with similar controls like the RSPCA shop fronts?

There is no way that the critical period socialisation needs of puppies are adequately provided for in a pet shop. When i refer to the poor conditions of pet shop pups- this is the biggest thing for me.

As pet shops currently are, maybe this is so. Obviously there would need to be changes.

In addition, pet shop pups are often harder to train- generally with things like handling- and specifically with something like toilet training.

Where is the evidence for this calim though?

The information regarding #'s of pet shop pups surrendered should be available- its a question on every surrender form i have ever seen, and i have seen a few.

The question is certainly relevant, but if you look at the sources of dogs in pounds where stats are compiled, pet shops are not top of the list you will find.

My view is that we just keep repeating a mantra without actually looking for evidence. The evidence when it is sought out, seems to point us in different directions as the AWL study showed that Steve refers to in this thread.

It is a bit like the desexing debate of animals in welfare situations. After researching this thoroughly, I really can't find any evidecne that shows desexing programs stops animals ending up in shelters or prevents them being abused. In fact, several studies show that the numbers coming in to shelters did not change even after intensive desexing campaigns. Obviously, this is another area of discussion, but as a rescuer, I have spent several years repeating the same thing as everyone else "desexed dogs are safe, desexed dogs stop dogs ending up in pounds" without questioing anything.

Is the same thing happening with pet shops? Should we start to view the situation in a different light as some in the rescue arena now are?

Can pet shops become our allies when it comes to promoting the purebred dog? Is this a better way of dealing with the pet shop issue?

I could be following a completely wrong train of thought, but I think we all need to go back to basics and look at companion animals, welfare and breeding in a fresh and bare bones light.

[poodlefan]

Yes but in that situation the people who were responsible for caring for the animal from birth or almost birth have taken the responsibility for finding it a home and they can educate the buyer and screen them within reason too.

Im not sure how I should word it but what Im trying to say is I dont think pet shops are automatically evil due to conditions etc but I dont think they can do what a breeder does in being able to offer back up , and education and support for the dog or the buyer.

For me that's the crux of the issue, but the inability to carefully raise pups, match pups to their new owners, create a reasonable level of expectation and understanding and provide the back up support , is not strictly limited to pet shops either.

It goes beyond that lack of back up support for me.

Petshops have pups during their first critical socialisation period. They house them inadequately (space, fresh air and sunlight aren't available) and that can lead to long term issues with toilet training, temperament and physical development. They expose them to the general public when they are not fully vaccinated and I understand losses can be quite high. Litter splitting across several points of sale adds to the mortality rate.

Issues as to whom and how the pups are sold come second to me behind the welfare of the animals. Nothing about transporting and housing these very young pups is "best practice" from that perspective. That's not subjective, those are cold hard facts.

Edited November 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[asal]

Sorry Nic, I mean in general. Why can't purebred pups be sold from a shop front (aka a pet shop) with similar controls like the RSPCA shop fronts?

There is no way that the critical period socialisation needs of puppies are adequately provided for in a pet shop. When i refer to the poor conditions of pet shop pups- this is the biggest thing for me.

As pet shops currently are, maybe this is so. Obviously there would need to be changes.

In addition, pet shop pups are often harder to train- generally with things like handling- and specifically with something like toilet training.

Where is the evidence for this calim though?

The information regarding #'s of pet shop pups surrendered should be available- its a question on every surrender form i have ever seen, and i have seen a few.

The question is certainly relevant, but if you look at the sources of dogs in pounds where stats are compiled, pet shops are not top of the list you will find.

My view is that we just keep repeating a mantra without actually looking for evidence. The evidence when it is sought out, seems to point us in different directions as the AWL study showed that Steve refers to in this thread.

It is a bit like the desexing debate of animals in welfare situations. After researching this thoroughly, I really can't find any evidecne that shows desexing programs stops animals ending up in shelters or prevents them being abused. In fact, several studies show that the numbers coming in to shelters did not change even after intensive desexing campaigns. Obviously, this is another area of discussion, but as a rescuer, I have spent several years repeating the same thing as everyone else "desexed dogs are safe, desexed dogs stop dogs ending up in pounds" without questioing anything.

Is the same thing happening with pet shops? Should we start to view the situation in a different light as some in the rescue arena now are?

Can pet shops become our allies when it comes to promoting the purebred dog? Is this a better way of dealing with the pet shop issue?

I could be following a completely wrong train of thought, but I think we all need to go back to basics and look at companion animals, welfare and breeding in a fresh and bare bones light.

ok havent read the rest of the thread, but when i was a kid, petshops were just about the only place u found a pup unless there was a roadside sign. and they grew up great dogs.

its the attitude of people today thats the problem, the throwaway society is just that.

the place to start is kindergarten. its a fact, educate them before they are 7 and you DO have them for life.

where do u think all the greenie teachings started? i know my child came home spouting greenie from kindi. we need to start pet education early,

[Cosmolo]

While i realise its not a scientific study, the evidence regarding pet shops inability to socialise pups properly during their critical period is right in front of me every day, across a wide range of dogs of all breeds.

However, there are many scientific studies documenting the importance of this critical period of opportunity and it can clearly be inferred from those that pet shop pups do not receive even the basics of correct socialisation during their critical period.

[~Anne~]

While i realise its not a scientific study, the evidence regarding pet shops inability to socialise pups properly during their critical period is right in front of me every day, across a wide range of dogs of all breeds.

However, there are many scientific studies documenting the importance of this critical period of opportunity and it can clearly be inferred from those that pet shop pups do not receive even the basics of correct socialisation during their critical period.

There are too many variables, and as you said, there is no study. How can you be so sure that what you believe to be right, is right?

As stated earleir, actual collections of statistics currently taking place are challenging long held beliefs.

Variables that would affect the outcome spring to mind like - how long does a pet shop puppy stay in a pet shop before it is sold? Are all pet shops equal in their neglected care? What of puppies bred and sold by breeders that are not socialised properly - surely there are just as many? Why are they different or not noticed?

Edited November 14, 2010 by ~Anne~

[poodlefan]

While i realise its not a scientific study, the evidence regarding pet shops inability to socialise pups properly during their critical period is right in front of me every day, across a wide range of dogs of all breeds.

However, there are many scientific studies documenting the importance of this critical period of opportunity and it can clearly be inferred from those that pet shop pups do not receive even the basics of correct socialisation during their critical period.

You, and a lot of other trainers Cosmolo.

Of course, its not just the period of time they spend in the pet shop that creates the issues. I've read studies that indicate that the critical period for socialising pups to humans starts at 3 weeks.

Pups born and raised in "non-domestic" situations simply don't get the exposure to people that they need. That can lead to life long issues with strangers. The RSPCA, before they start telling breeders to get the whelping boxes out of the family home, should chew on that for a while.

My signature says what it says for a reason.

[Rusky]

Of course, its not just the period of time they spend in the pet shop that creates the issues. I've read studies that indicate that the critical period for socialising pups to humans starts at 3 weeks

I think you will find it is as soon as they open their eyes and even before birth even with tummy rubs and talking Much like mums now know to talk and sing and read to their unborn baby I did that anyway instinctively but now it is in all the books....

pet shop pups do have issues with peeing in the right place it is a common problem. I absolutely hate to see mixed litters in the shop window together and when you speak to staff about a bully puppy they have no idea what you are talking about. I don't know what the answer is, I don't think anyone does but certainly pet shop purchases take the lion share of surrender, we don't know about the pound as often there is no history which is why compulsary chipping really should be the first step.

Having said all that I know someone really well who bought the knock down price puppy who had been there too long and was probably off to the back room and that wee puppy( even though peeing is still a problem sometimes but much improved) is a sweet social dog, loves everyone.

[Greytmate]

I totally agree with Anne we need to find out for what reason Joe Public is prepared to part with MORE money than what a pure bred would cost from a registered breeder as well as NO PED CERT....WHY do they do that ;)

Not enough promotion of Pure Bred dogs? BYBer ads easier to find in papers and on supermarket ad boards?

Well bred dogs are undervalued for a start. The high prices achieved for substandard dogs shows what people are prepared to pay if they think they are getting what they need in a dog.

Pet shops do promote themselves with their retail presence. Some puppy farms promote themselves through an online presence. But promotion is only a part of their marketing strategy.

Promotion alone isn't enough. Purebreeds need a marketing campaign too.

One of the problem is that there is such a blur between puppy farmers, backyard breeders, cross breeders and registered breeders, with many unethical registered breeders and also many unregistered breeders who are attempting but failing to be ethical through lack of education.

You cannot market "purebreed dogs" as a preferable 'brand', when there is no quality control.

You can market "MDBA" as a preferable 'brand', because there is quality control. (Well you could, if MDBA wasn't such a lame name)

There has to be an incentive to do this, and I believe it is possible to put an incentive in place.

None of the pet shops or puppy farms are running very sophisticated marketing campaigns, it wouldn't be hard to do a better one for a better quality product.

Forget trying to legislate on the basis of ethics. That will never succeed, because you cannot restrain people's right to trade. But there is sound science behind why an ethical breeder's practices work, and why pet shops and most puppy farms don't work, and that can be used to push for change.

[Sheridan]

O.K. But do you think promoting our dogs as pets will make any difference to pet shops selling puppy mill dogs? Are you coming at it from - the public buy from pet shops but would prefer to buy from us if we strutted our stuff more? Problem is we dont breed anywhere near enough to fill the demand. I dont see pet shops as any form of competition.

While there may not be enough dogs to fill a demand, particularly for the less popular and rarer breeds, it isn't just about demand or competition. To me, it's also about promoting quality over quantity. Joe Public may think that pet shops and BYBs are the place to go because of various reasons, not least of which is the image of the pedigree as only a show dog. That perception has to change. I've spoken before to howls of 'How dare you!' and flaming (including from you, Steve) about the terminology that's used such as 'pet quality'. Referring to a dog as 'pet quality' gives the impression of lesser quality. Now, don't start on about how it doesn't mean that because I know that and other people on DOL know that but the vast majority of Joe Public are not DOLers and aren't savvy. It's about marketing and (again) like it or not, marketing is everything.

[Steve]

While i realise its not a scientific study, the evidence regarding pet shops inability to socialise pups properly during their critical period is right in front of me every day, across a wide range of dogs of all breeds.

However, there are many scientific studies documenting the importance of this critical period of opportunity and it can clearly be inferred from those that pet shop pups do not receive even the basics of correct socialisation during their critical period.

O.k. Lets look at this a minute.

Surely the general idea from the pet shop point of view is to move these dogs out as quickly as possible. I remember once checking on some beagle pups which were in a pet shop in Penrith. They had come in on the Monday and by Thursday 8 were sold. I dont think that holding these pups for 4 days in a pet shop woul dimpact at all on how easy they woul dbe to train or live the same lives as any pup from any regsitered breeder. In fact I know lots of breeders would rarely handle their pups because they work or because they need to keep em in one spot etc. How long has a pup got to be in a pet shop to suffer to a point where it is altered and more difficult to train.

What is it that a pet shop does which can be guaranteed not to be happening in any home with a litter in anywhere which would impact on trainability? Lots of peopel take a new pup home and dont socialise it due to worries about vaccinations etc and it would see less animals and less people than a pet shop so what am I missing?

[poodlefan]

While i realise its not a scientific study, the evidence regarding pet shops inability to socialise pups properly during their critical period is right in front of me every day, across a wide range of dogs of all breeds.

However, there are many scientific studies documenting the importance of this critical period of opportunity and it can clearly be inferred from those that pet shop pups do not receive even the basics of correct socialisation during their critical period.

O.k. Lets look at this a minute.

Surely the general idea from the pet shop point of view is to move these dogs out as quickly as possible. I remember once checking on some beagle pups which were in a pet shop in Penrith. They had come in on the Monday and by Thursday 8 were sold. I dont think that holding these pups for 4 days in a pet shop woul dimpact at all on how easy they woul dbe to train or live the same lives as any pup from any regsitered breeder. In fact I know lots of breeders would rarely handle their pups because they work or because they need to keep em in one spot etc. How long has a pup got to be in a pet shop to suffer to a point where it is altered and more difficult to train.

What is it that a pet shop does which can be guaranteed not to be happening in any home with a litter in anywhere which would impact on trainability? Lots of peopel take a new pup home and dont socialise it due to worries about vaccinations etc and it would see less animals and less people than a pet shop so what am I missing?

For the most part, I think pups spend far longer in a pet shop than that and probably the most important issue is where they are whelped and how they are raised. Certainly most are in the shops not long after 5 weeks of age.

[Steve]

Alright - if we assume - worst case they get to the pet shop at around 5 weeks and stay till they are 10 weeks old - define socialised.What would you expect the person who had control of these pups did in that time frame to ensure they were well adjusted.

[poodlefan]

Alright - if we assume - worst case they get to the pet shop at around 5 weeks and stay till they are 10 weeks old - define socialised.What would you expect the person who had control of these pups did in that time frame to ensure they were well adjusted.

I'd be wanting them:

* given space to run and play with littermates - to develop physcially and to practice behaviours that help them learn dog speak. I would NOT want them housed with other litters, and to bully or be bullied without any possiblity of escape or respite - I see that in those glass cases all the time. Those pups must be Vitamin D deficient quite quickly.

* started on toilet training. NOT forced to eat, sleep and eliminate in toxic fume emitting shredded copy paper.

* I'd want them on four feet, being encouraged to approach and receive affection from a range of people - NOT shoved into peoples arms and manhandled by anyone including kids.

Those breeds that require life long grooming should have had their first groom by the time they head for new homes and should be accustomed to handling also.

[casowner]

If pups are going into shops at 5 weeks they need to be reported, they must be 7 weeks of age before they can be sold ( I believe that may be increased to 8) in SA. It is also recommended that they are kept no longer than 21 days - there is no provision however for what happens then and it is a recommendation only. If Legislation exists and it is being broken then pressure needs to be put on the Governing bodies to act on breaches, laws will only be obeyed if they are infact enforced and there is a visible presence from those that govern them. Toothless tigers don't instill the same sort of fear and respect as the one that is hungry and has a full set of canines.

Pet Shop Legislation SA