So Whats The Answer ?

[Steve]

Same situation here as in the puppy farm thread. Given that it seems this is something which is constantly being pushed its time we looked at it - debated the issues and came up with plan of action of our own which is not driven by animal rights and considers alternatives and actions which dont include law changes.

I am against anyone buying a dog or kitten from anyone who is not the person who bred it for a variety of reasons - so lets go - what do you guys see as the answer - but its no fun and prohibitive if we go the way others are and demand new laws - lets look for viable actions and alternatives.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Steve

[Staranais]

I am against anyone buying a dog or kitten from anyone who is not the person who bred it for a variety of reasons

Really? I find that hard to believe Steve, but would be interested to know your reasons.

In that case, that would mean any cat & dog whose breeder can't be identified must either be PTS or given away free? That would pretty much be the nail in the coffin of rescues, since they can't survive on nothing.

[Steve]

I am against anyone buying a dog or kitten from anyone who is not the person who bred it for a variety of reasons

Really? I find that hard to believe Steve, but would be interested to know your reasons.

In that case, that would mean any cat & dog whose breeder can't be identified must either be PTS or given away free? That would pretty much be the nail in the coffin of rescues, since they can't survive on nothing.

Sorry you're right - I meant as puppies.

I think anyone who takes less money for the pup than they could get if they sell it themselves is usually doing so to remain anon ,duck responsibility and because they dont care enough about what comes next.

I think that the people who sell the dog should know enough about the dog and the breed to be able to educate the buyer on what they are getting including how both parents behave. there's more but Ill come back gotta run.

[Staranais]

Sorry you're right - I meant as puppies.

I think anyone who takes less money for the pup than they could get if they sell it themselves is usually doing so to remain anon ,duck responsibility and because they dont care enough about what comes next.

I think that the people who sell the dog should know enough about the dog and the breed to be able to educate the buyer on what they are getting including how both parents behave. there's more but Ill come back gotta run.

OK that makes more sense, and on the whole I agree with you. But... what about rescue puppies and kittens? I have a friend fostering some orphan baby kittens for the SPCA right now. Should they be given away for free, or PTS, or kept until they are adults before they can be sold? Or can the SPCA sell them when they are 8 weeks old?

Perhaps genuine rescues should be exempt from the rules of only breeders being allowed to sell puppies and kittens.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Sorry you're right - I meant as puppies.

I think anyone who takes less money for the pup than they could get if they sell it themselves is usually doing so to remain anon ,duck responsibility and because they dont care enough about what comes next.

I think that the people who sell the dog should know enough about the dog and the breed to be able to educate the buyer on what they are getting including how both parents behave. there's more but Ill come back gotta run.

OK that makes more sense, and on the whole I agree with you. But... what about rescue puppies and kittens? I have a friend fostering some orphan baby kittens for the SPCA right now. Should they be given away for free, or PTS, or kept until they are adults before they can be sold? Or can the SPCA sell them when they are 8 weeks old?

Perhaps genuine rescues should be exempt from the rules of only breeders being allowed to sell puppies and kittens.

perhaps but it does raise an issue that has been bothering me for a while.

why do rescues/pounds allow cats and dogs to have puppies and kittens when this is just increasing the problem?

[Staranais]

Sometimes it's not an option since the bubbies are already born. The friend I mentioned, she currently is fostering one mumma cat that was dumped with four tiny babies, and also has two tiny orphans kitties that were apparently found with a dead mother.

But I do think that you do have a point, in that sometimes aborting a pregnant animal is a better option than letting it have babies that also have to be rehomed.

[Shmurps]

I promote reg, ethical breeders and rescue when I am asked.

However I believe that the reg, ethical breeders need to be promoted more.

"Meet the pure breeds and Breeders" At a pet store that doesn't sell animals or promos at Town fairs for example. Rescue and breed specific rescues do it all the time.

There are so many pure breeds that people don't even know they exist.

May be a doco.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Sometimes it's not an option since the bubbies are already born. The friend I mentioned, she currently is fostering one mumma cat that was dumped with four tiny babies, and also has two tiny orphans kitties that were apparently found with a dead mother.

But I do think that you do have a point, in that sometimes aborting a pregnant animal is a better option than letting it have babies that also have to be rehomed.

thank you yes i understand that situation. the situation i don't understand is allowing pregnant animals to whelp (don't know the word for cats)

[Steve]

Yes but inthat situation the people who were responsible for caring for the animal from birth or almost birth have taken the responsibility for finding it a home and they can educate the buyer and screen them within reason too.

Im not sure how I should word it but what Im trying to say is I dont think pet shops are automatically evil due to conditions etc but I dont think they can do what a breeder does in being able to offer back up , and education and support for the dog or the buyer. If rescue are whelping pregnant dogs they should be doing what breeder should be doing and neither one should be using emotional crap to get a sale. Bassed onthe stats from AWL where returns from rescue are higher than either breeders [ any breeders] or pet shops there is a can of worms there.

[WreckitWhippet]

Yes but in that situation the people who were responsible for caring for the animal from birth or almost birth have taken the responsibility for finding it a home and they can educate the buyer and screen them within reason too.

Im not sure how I should word it but what Im trying to say is I dont think pet shops are automatically evil due to conditions etc but I dont think they can do what a breeder does in being able to offer back up , and education and support for the dog or the buyer.

For me that's the crux of the issue, but the inability to carefully raise pups, match pups to their new owners, create a reasonable level of expectation and understanding and provide the back up support , is not strictly limited to pet shops either.

[mushka]

"Meet the pure breeds and Breeders" At a pet store that doesn't sell animals or promos at Town fairs for example. Rescue and breed specific rescues do it all the time.

I really like this idea. I would love it if breeders and their dogs were more accessible outside of the show/trial arena.

[Florise]

I really like this idea. I would love it if breeders and their dogs were more accessible outside of the show/trial arena.

Dogs Victoria had actually arranged such an event for tomorrow, called Meet the Dogs of Melbourne, at Federation Square, but it has been cancelled because of forecast heavy rain. I am sure it will be reschedlued.

[~Anne~]

Yes but inthat situation the people who were responsible for caring for the animal from birth or almost birth have taken the responsibility for finding it a home and they can educate the buyer and screen them within reason too.

Im not sure how I should word it but what Im trying to say is I dont think pet shops are automatically evil due to conditions etc but I dont think they can do what a breeder does in being able to offer back up , and education and support for the dog or the buyer.

Why can't they though? Why can't a pet shop ultimately offer the same level of education and support? They don't at the moment, we know that, but then neither do a lot of other people including breeders.

If rescue are whelping pregnant dogs they should be doing what breeder should be doing and neither one should be using emotional crap to get a sale. Bassed onthe stats from AWL where returns from rescue are higher than either breeders [ any breeders] or pet shops there is a can of worms there.

Totally agree. I think it certainly indicates a failing in re-homed animals in that instance.

I am against the idea of aborting pups just because 'they shouldn't be re-homed'.

There is no over abundance of dogs, so why not allow them to whelp and re-home the pups?

[espinay2]

One idea that keeps tossing around half formed in my brain is the idea of a 'pet finder service' offered by Pet stores. It could have several roles (which may be conflicting I guess - as I said half formed) - where the breeder (a) acts as a 'broker' putting the pet buyer in touch with breeders through listings at their store, with the breeder perhaps paying a fee for the listing or a percentage of sales, or alternately (b) they provide a service to owners where they help match them with a suitable pet ('find the right pet for your lifestyle - let us help you etc etc), then provide them with contacts to purchase the pets. Whether the buyer would pay a fee to the pet store for the service, and/or the breeder pays a fee for a listing or referral to them I don't know. I gues wht I am thinking of is a system where the breeder is known and maintains control of the pups, but the pet store acts as a paid 'go between'.

[Esky the husky]

Not sure how keen the money grubbing pet shops would be on giving up their sales though.

I think we really need to hammer home the message that a dog is a family member, not a spur of the moment purchase.

And they should research what would suit their needs.

I think the meet the dogs days would help

[moosmum]

Sorry folks, but I'm going to say education yet again.

I firmly believe that animal studies,with a focus on responsible domestic animal ownership is long over due as part of the school cirriculum(sp?)

Plants are studied as part of basic science,from propagation to to photosynthesis and more.

Animals have never been included in this,possibly because at one time every one had some experience with animals in their own homes or close by.Thats no longer the case and it shows.

The 1st thread in this series mentioned examples already,but to give another,I was once asked when milking my goats if the billy goat could be milked too! :D And this from a country raised woman with 2 children.And yes,she was serious.

The benefits of knowing what you want or are trying to acheive with a pet is naturaly going to promote a knowledge of an animals purpose/back ground as best practice.

Edited to add: I understand you are after more immediate sugestions Steve,so I will drop it (for these threads.

Edited November 13, 2010 by moosmum

[shortstep]

I would like to see a very aggressive campaign to boycott all shops that sell cats and dogs (C/D).

But not just a call for people to stop buying C/D at pet shops, it needs to be much more. We need to attack all of their business and give them lots of reasons to change their practice.

All breeders need to write and sigh petitions saying they will boycott their store and send all their puppy buyers to other stores that do not sell C/D. We need to also say that we will be actively promoting the stores that do not sell C/D.

All owners need to write and sigh petitions saying they will boycott their store and shop at other stores that do noty sell C/D. We need to also say that we will be actively promoting stores that do not sell C/D.

We need to send the petition to everyone we know, friends family, groups clubs, (even none dog related).

Come up with a breeders/owners signature list Certificate that give their approval to Store ___XYZ____ for it's refusal to sell cats of dogs. Which can be displayed on their wall.

Tell pet shops that do not sell cats of dogs that you will link to them on your web site with your approval of their practice of not selling dogs or cats.

Do all this in person as often as possible too.

We did this with a local pet shop in my town about 20 years ago. It only took about 3 weeks of constant pressure for them to decide it was best to change their policy.

Then we rewarded them as best we could. We had rescue groups come with dogs, we got a vaccinations clinic at reduced rates to take place in their shop to reward them with more walk in customers, we also have dog days where breeders would come to the shop and showcase their breed. We did a breeders bulletin board in the shop that listed KC breeders in the local area. We told our puppy buyers, friends and everyone we could think of to drop in and support the shop for it's new policy of not selling puppies (and to tell the owner when they visited that that was why they were there to shop). It was not long and they said they had improved sales of puppy items, upgrade foods and all pet supplies and they were very happy.

Edited November 13, 2010 by shortstep

[Shazzapug]

Sorry folks, but I'm going to say education yet again.

I firmly believe that animal studies,with a focus on responsible domestic animal ownership is long over due as part of the school cirriculum(sp?)

Plants are studied as part of basic science,from propagation to to photosynthesis and more.

Animals have never been included in this,possibly because at one time every one had some experience with animals in their own homes or close by.Thats no longer the case and it shows.

The 1st thread in this series mentioned examples already,but to give another,I was once asked when milking my goats if the billy goat could be milked too! :D And this from a country raised woman with 2 children.And yes,she was serious.

The benefits of knowing what you want or are trying to acheive with a pet is naturaly going to promote a knowledge of an animals purpose/back ground as best practice.

Edited to add: I understand you are after more immediate sugestions Steve,so I will drop it (for these threads. ;)

Sorry off topic....Hate to get technical but you can actually milk a billy goat....I will get the ladies name and stud if you like.

[moosmum]

Sorry folks, but I'm going to say education yet again.

I firmly believe that animal studies,with a focus on responsible domestic animal ownership is long over due as part of the school cirriculum(sp?)

Plants are studied as part of basic science,from propagation to to photosynthesis and more.

Animals have never been included in this,possibly because at one time every one had some experience with animals in their own homes or close by.Thats no longer the case and it shows.

The 1st thread in this series mentioned examples already,but to give another,I was once asked when milking my goats if the billy goat could be milked too! And this from a country raised woman with 2 children.And yes,she was serious.

The benefits of knowing what you want or are trying to acheive with a pet is naturaly going to promote a knowledge of an animals purpose/back ground as best practice.

Edited to add: I understand you are after more immediate sugestions Steve,so I will drop it (for these threads. ;)

Sorry off topic....Hate to get technical but you can actually milk a billy goat....I will get the ladies name and stud if you like. ;)

:D I will pass on that one thanks.I hope the goats are de- scented! Pungent milk.

[Shazzapug]

Sorry folks, but I'm going to say education yet again.

I firmly believe that animal studies,with a focus on responsible domestic animal ownership is long over due as part of the school cirriculum(sp?)

Plants are studied as part of basic science,from propagation to to photosynthesis and more.

Animals have never been included in this,possibly because at one time every one had some experience with animals in their own homes or close by.Thats no longer the case and it shows.

The 1st thread in this series mentioned examples already,but to give another,I was once asked when milking my goats if the billy goat could be milked too! ;) And this from a country raised woman with 2 children.And yes,she was serious.

The benefits of knowing what you want or are trying to acheive with a pet is naturaly going to promote a knowledge of an animals purpose/back ground as best practice.

Edited to add: I understand you are after more immediate sugestions Steve,so I will drop it (for these threads. ;)

Sorry off topic....Hate to get technical but you can actually milk a billy goat....I will get the ladies name and stud if you like. ;)

:D I will pass on that one thanks.I hope the goats are de- scented! Pungent milk.

Oh dog no, wouldnt touch the stuff.