Stop The Use Of Pound Animals For Experiments At Queensland University

[WoofnHoof]

Not really like I said I think that it's political they don't want a sh!t fight about an aerial cull so they come up with some outrageous scheme to get people to agree to aerial culling.

Why dont they have the balls to just say - right we're having an aerial cull rather than subject these wild animals to terror in transporting them and that's all there is to it.

Because they know damn well that it's not the best they can do it's just the easiest and cheapest. Management of feral horses is difficult but really it's not about the environment or animal welfare it's about freeing up grazing land, if government wanted a humane solution they would put money into researching it. I don't believe they had any intention of trucking those horses to Qld it's not financially viable and most of the animals would be dead or useless as meat by the time they got here anyway.

Interesting points I'd like to ask you about - how about a new thread so we stop derailing this one.

Sounds like a plan

[Aussienot]

Interesting points I'd like to ask you about - how about a new thread so we stop derailing this one.

I'm pretty sure this thread went way off the rails a long time ago . . .

[raz]

Interesting points I'd like to ask you about - how about a new thread so we stop derailing this one.

I'm pretty sure this thread went way off the rails a long time ago . . .

Sure but I want to ask Woof questions about the brumbies and might be best if we start a new thread about it - or I can go back to the thread in OT. There's a plan - see you in there, Woof.

[mita]

As suggested previously, put the energy into helping rehome the gorgeous ex-pound dogs & cats for adoption from the University of Qld.

Here's a cracker of a little dog. Griffin X, called Lois. I think she's got amazing looks. With her comes all the good things UQ puts in...best of vet care (desexing, vaccination, worming etc), the best of socialisation (loads of UQ 'friends' to play with), & the best of training (yep, Lois has lessons).

She'll be available mid-December. I think UQ would do interstate adoption:

http://www.petrescue.com.au/view/92366

Edited December 6, 2010 by mita

[Shmurps]

OGAN CITY COUNCIL FAILS ITS DUTY OF CARE TO HOMELESS PETS

MEDIA RELEASE 22 November 2010; Non Human Rescue

LOGAN CITY COUNCIL FAILS ITS DUTY OF CARE TO HOMELESS PETS

PUBLIC RALLY 27 NOVEMBER 2010

NHRO is disappointed to learn of Logan City Council’s decision to continue providing pound pets to Queensland University.

Chairperson, Kisha Giannangelo, said today “Abandoned pets in pounds and shelters have already suffered the fear and distress of losing their family/carers and familiar territory. Their use in research and teaching is the ultimate betrayal and as a society we should never condone that.”

Students can become compassionate and competent veterinarians without having to kill those they are training to protect. They can gain valuable experience operating under strict supervision on pets that will actually benefit from the surgery, i.e. supervised desexing programs. This way they will also gain experience in observing and monitoring post-operative recovery which is a key component of health care.

The fact that veterinary schools in the UK, North America as well as Sydney, Melbourne and WA Universities are able to produce well-qualified veterinarians without relying on terminal surgery labs demonstrates that they are able to achieve the same outcome by more humane means.

RSPCA QLD says “we are opposed to providing dogs for non-recovery surgery or for any form of research. (We do allow final year vet students to desex our rehomeable dogs under supervision and they are returned to us for rehoming.) RSPCA encourages the use of alternative teaching methods (replacement) and reduction of numbers (Reduction) by ensuring students do initial practice on cadavers or simulated animals.”

Andrew Knight PhD, MRCVS, Fellow, Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics says “Starting as a new graduate vet is an enormously stressful experience. Suddenly, you have full responsibility for the lives of your patients. I’m enormously grateful that I chose not to participate in our terminal surgical labs, and instead gained around 5 times the experience of my conventionally-trained classmates, by assisting with beneficial surgeries, mostly in private clinics and animal shelters. Accordingly, I was much more confident surgically when I graduated, and my patients also benefited from my increased speed and skill. Such outcomes are common. Of 11 published studies, 45% demonstrated superior learning outcomes when vet students used humane teaching methods to learn surgery – partly due to increased ability to customise or repeat learning exercises. 45% demonstrated equivalent learning outcomes, and only one study demonstrated an inferior outcome. Well-designed humane alternatives are indisputably better for students, for the animals they will treat, and for the animals who would otherwise be harmed during veterinary education.”

Dr Lisa Elsner BVSc said today “I obtained my veterinary degree without killing any patients in the process – upon graduation I had performed many more desexings than anyone in my year and had the confidence to perform surgeries unsupervised. I learnt by performing the most common surgery a new graduate will perform, desexings of cats and dogs, whilst initially under the supervision of an experienced veterinarian and then on my own – this was done both at welfare shelters and private practices. This not only gave me superior learning to my peers but I also gained an enormous amount of post-surgical experience including monitoring of patients as they woke up and recovered. Qualified vets do not kill their patients after they operate on them so why should vet students be taught this way? Vet students who still take part in terminal surgeries are being denied a full education, that is they are not gaining any post surgical care of their patients as well as being taught that it’s ok to use dogs and then dispose of them. It’s only a matter of time before all vet schools will have to change their outdated ways and eliminate terminal surgeries and start teaching students to respect life and give them that all important post surgical experience which is just as important as the surgery.”

“Brisbane City and Moreton Bay Councils no longer supply homeless pets to University of QLD and considering the availability of more humane and pedagogically-sound alternatives, the use of terminal surgery labs is an unnecessary and unethical practice therefore we are staging a Public Rally outside Logan City Council Animal Management Centre at 10am on the 27th November 2010 at 213 Queens Rd Kingston to raise awareness in the community and end this unethical and inhumane practice.” Ms Giannangelo concluded.

Pet overpopulation The number of healthy animals euthanized each day due to a lack of suitable homes is a tragedy, but using pound pets is actually creating a dependence on the problem rather than helping to solve it. Queensland University is therefore benefiting from the human irresponsibility and cruelty necessitating pounds.

[stormie]

The fact that veterinary schools in the UK, North America as well as Sydney, Melbourne and WA Universities are able to produce well-qualified veterinarians without relying on terminal surgery labs demonstrates that they are able to achieve the same outcome by more humane means.

So according to the RSPCA, putting an animal to sleep after it has been anaesthetised is inhumane? Lethabarb is an overdose of anaesthetic. If the RSPCA are happy to inject animals with this to put them to sleep, how is it any difference to give them a lesser amount first, prior to putting them to sleep? The animal has no idea what's happening to it whilst it's under GA. It just goes to sleep with the GA and doesn't wake up - no different to being put to sleep with Lethabarb.

RSPCA QLD says “we are opposed to providing dogs for non-recovery surgery or for any form of research. (We do allow final year vet students to desex our rehomeable dogs under supervision and they are returned to us for rehoming.)

So they're happy to volunteer their pound dogs for use? And they're only put up for rehoming after the surgery has been successful - no doubt because they realise there's a higher risk with students performing the surgeries and they understand they may not all return. But this is ok, apparently.

[Di*]

TAFE SA used greyhounds that were no longer required by their trainers, I would be walking one in the morning in the morning and then seeing him/her on the table for a non recovery procedure in the afternoon it was heartbreaking (don't know the current status). Emotively it is a very difficult situation but what is the answer? We need vet students to learn before they start practicing on our own pets so what is an alternative that will satisfy everyones beliefs?

As an former SU vet student (I discontinued my studies), I'd like to make the point that we manage to train human doctors without the need for them to be involved in an equivalent practice. [i could make a comment here about nazi scientists/doctors but I won't.]

Di

[Souff]

...... but using pound pets is actually creating a dependence on the problem rather than helping to solve it. Queensland University is therefore benefiting from the human irresponsibility and cruelty necessitating pounds.

Oh .....

So if Queensland University did not have Logan Shire to supply them with dogs ..... they would never be able to find another source of unwanted dogs? :D

On a slightly different subject, do people donate their dogs' bodies for medical research these days?

I know humans still donate their bodies to science and their offer is gratefully accepted.

I was talking to a student the other week who has the opportunity to learn on a donated portion of somebody's anatomy and he was telling me what he was working on, I wont tell you all here because you just might throw up, but he was saying that it was really good to be able to see in practice how the tissue and tendons etc all worked together. Far better than using fibreglass models that are glued together.

I think I might inquire about donating my oldies to science ..... to be just turned into ashes and popped in a jar without being of any benefit to vet science seems a waste.

I would much rather have a beautiful photograph or portrait on the wall of a healthy dog .... instead of a container of ashes which makes me sad.

Souff

Edited December 7, 2010 by Souff

[raz]

[i could make a comment here about nazi scientists/doctors but I won't.]

Di

No please dont. You'll be in a world of hurt if you do. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread.

[Greytmate]

So they're happy to volunteer their pound dogs for use? And they're only put up for rehoming after the surgery has been successful - no doubt because they realise there's a higher risk with students performing the surgeries and they understand they may not all return. But this is ok, apparently.

Yes it is. When I was rehoming dogs I had many dogs desexed at UQ by final year students. All returned, and all survived without problems.

There is no profit in rehoming dogs, and so free, supervised surgery is welcomed.

Edited to add, I would not put any dog up for rehoming until its surgery had been successful, regardless of who did the surgery.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Greytmate

[Are You Serious Jo]

As an former SU vet student (I discontinued my studies), I'd like to make the point that we manage to train human doctors without the need for them to be involved in an equivalent practice. [i could make a comment here about nazi scientists/doctors but I won't.]

Di

Have you read the thread, specifically where it is stated that human doctors do practice on live animals, it blows your theory out the water I'm afraid.

If putting an animal under a GA is so cruel then how do those opposed to it cope with their pets being desexed, exactly the same procedure. Does that make you cruel?

[stormie]

I don't have a problem with Uni students desexing dogs. As made clear by my opinion on the subject, any experience for our next generation vets is a good thing.

I just think its ridiculous that the RSPCA are now using the issue to paint themselves in such a glorious light, because they're happy to volunteer their pound dogs for the students to get experience on, but for another pound to do this, is inhumane, because the animal doesn't wake up at the end.

I'm just interested in which part exactly is inhumane? The surgery? Because they're happy for that to happen to their poundies, or is it the putting to sleep bit? Because they do that themselves every day.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Once again it is a case of people confusing cruelty with human emotion, they feel bad about it and for some reason their brain isn't working and they turn it into something cruel. But will be interesting to see if anyone can actually identify the cruel aspect is supposed to be. Do they think that there are members of the dog's family out there crying their eyes out because they know their relative was PTS? Do they think the dog has a soul and as it dies it is looking down on the surgery and will be forever tormented by its death? It defies logic to me and offends my deep Vulcan sensabilities

Of course no one wants to see pounds full of unwanted dogs and knowing they are getting the green dream, but being cruel??

[WoofnHoof]

On a slightly different subject, do people donate their dogs' bodies for medical research these days?

Yes they do, donated cadavers are used in many unis as I understand it and of course play an important part in those unis which don't participate in non-recovery surgeries. It's something I've never really thought of with my dogs although with my sibe it would be extremely educational for vet students to see the results of a successful liver shunt ligation, so it is something that might be worth finding out about as long as I get him back at the end though for my own peace of mind

Jo I don't believe the non-recoveries are cruel. I do believe that it's possible that non-recoveries aren't absolutely necessary. And I do believe that the issue of desensitisation requires further investigation as I feel that it is a valid concern. The devaluation of a life simply because it is unwanted by society and therefore becomes a 'waste' if not 'used' in some way is a concern to me, but whether that is a valid or justifiable concern I don't know as it hasn't been thoroughly investigated.

There still exists in science a perception that anything that could be perceived as even slightly anthropomorphic is automatically dismissed as 'emotive fluff' and anyone who questions this is labelled 'unrealistic', the reality is that this is a species which has evolved very closely alongside us and therefore we hold in great respect. Why shouldn't we look at the ethics of using their bodies for science? Why shouldn't we look at the effects of that on our own psyche and the effects on the profession of veterinary science as a whole? Why do people dismiss these questions with such vehemence? I find it all very interesting.

[Souff]

On a slightly different subject, do people donate their dogs' bodies for medical research these days?

Yes they do, donated cadavers are used in many unis as I understand it and of course play an important part in those unis which don't participate in non-recovery surgeries. It's something I've never really thought of with my dogs although with my sibe it would be extremely educational for vet students to see the results of a successful liver shunt ligation, so it is something that might be worth finding out about as long as I get him back at the end though for my own peace of mind

Thanks WnH. Yes, I can see that it would be of benefit to students to see what had taken place after major surgery like that. And yes, if they came back as ashes in a pot later it would give peace of mind.

Souff

[Souff]

I'm just interested in which part exactly is inhumane? The surgery? Because they're happy for that to happen to their poundies, or is it the putting to sleep bit? Because they do that themselves every day.

That is a very good question.

[Aussienot]

"but using pound pets is actually creating a dependence on the problem rather than helping to solve it."

OK Smhurps, I'll bite, what have you done lately to solve the pound program? How many of these dogs will you take at your house? Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if there were no dogs going to be put to sleep in Logan pound today. Yes the number of homeless pets is a shocking problem. However, this is not the subject of this petition!

This progam is not new, it has been running for at least three years that I know of and probably long before that. The number of animals surrendered in the pound has actually decreased, (as it has nationally, and euthanasias are down proportionally). I'm sure Logan pound staff would be overjoyed if there were no animals facing euthanasia on any given day. If the QU program ceases because there are no dogs to be used, whoopeee!

But back in the real world, this program takes unwanted animals that were going to die a meaningless death,

and gives their death a sense of purpose.

[Greytmate]

I don't have a problem with Uni students desexing dogs. As made clear by my opinion on the subject, any experience for our next generation vets is a good thing.

I just think its ridiculous that the RSPCA are now using the issue to paint themselves in such a glorious light, because they're happy to volunteer their pound dogs for the students to get experience on, but for another pound to do this, is inhumane, because the animal doesn't wake up at the end.

I'm just interested in which part exactly is inhumane? The surgery? Because they're happy for that to happen to their poundies, or is it the putting to sleep bit? Because they do that themselves every day.

I have rolled my eyes at a few of the things that RSPCA management have told me are cruel. Really strange ideas and a few self-delusions going on.

But I can see why they take this stand on this issue.

In QLD the RSPCA does not accept strays, only surrenders.

Therefore, they are obliged to tell people surrendering dogs what the options are that they may take on that dog. Either rehab and rehome, or PTS on premises.

If they told people the dogs would go to the uni, people might be less inclined to surrender the dog, and more inclined to dispose of it inappropriately.

Where as the pounds are obligated to take strays and have no obligation at all to disclose disposal methods to previous owners.

Therefore the pound is in a position to do this, RSPCA is not.

As for the RSPCA calling the practice 'cruel'. Did they actually say that? That is just political grandstanding if they did.

[Greytmate]

Logan council, while under resourced, have always preferred that rescue organisations take their dogs before anything else.

If somebody wanted to provide an alternative for the dogs in Logan Pound, they would get cooperation.

[aussielover]

I'm just interested in which part exactly is inhumane? The surgery? Because they're happy for that to happen to their poundies, or is it the putting to sleep bit? Because they do that themselves every day.

That is a very good question.

They used to perfrom the surgery, and wake the dog back up (ie let it recover) and then euthanse it.

You can see how that is potentially inhumane.

Then it was changed to perform the surgery but never let the dog wake up, and now the dogs that have the surgery can be rehomed.