Stop The Use Of Pound Animals For Experiments At Queensland University

[WoofnHoof]

I cannot see any drama about dogs which are going anyhow being used to provide non painful assistance to veterinary students, which use assists everyone with a pet.

Actually I do see a problem, when I took my dog into the vets and he crashed the vets didn't do a full run of blood tests which would have identified the problem. Now it's possible that they believed that a blood test wouldn't prove the diagnoses they were leaning towards, but it's also possible that due to his advanced and rapid state of decline they believed that the dog was 'going to die anyway' and so further investigation was a waste of time. Now I cannot confirm or deny that this was the case but it certainly makes me wonder whether the 'it's going to die anyway' mantra is as harmless as it initially appears.

There is no correlation between the use of pound dogs in vet schools and your belief that your vet failed to do what you considered his best for your dog.

Maybe he did think the dog would die anyhow and you wouldn't be prepared to pay hundreds for blood tests for a dog which was dead (a frequent scenario), maybe he was quite sure of the diagnosis, maybe he was an idiot

Since no one has done a study on it AFAIK I don't know how you can categorically state that there is no correlation between the use of pound dogs and the subsequent treatment philosophies of the graduating vets?

Either way it was a team of vets they freely admitted the diagnosis was their 'best guess' because they had NFI, and they were told repeatedly that I was prepared to authorize any test or treatment that would give a clearer diagnosis. Whether it is correlated or not I believe it is something worth thinking about and looking into.

[raz]

Since no one has done a study on it AFAIK I don't know how you can categorically state that there is no correlation between the use of pound dogs and the subsequent treatment philosophies of the graduating vets?

Either way it was a team of vets they freely admitted the diagnosis was their 'best guess' because they had NFI, and they were told repeatedly that I was prepared to authorize any test or treatment that would give a clearer diagnosis. Whether it is correlated or not I believe it is something worth thinking about and looking into.

So have you changed your mind now? I dont get it - are you saying those vets you used werent adequately trained at Uni?

[Kirty]

I think she is saying that perhaps using dogs in non-recovery surgeries in uni has made them 'cold' towards dogs that are going to die anyway. I can honestly say that the students I have worked with (and there have been a lot) all say the dogs are treated really well, loved and respected.

[raz]

I think she is saying that perhaps using dogs in non-recovery surgeries in uni has made them 'cold' towards dogs that are going to die anyway. I can honestly say that the students I have worked with (and there have been a lot) all say the dogs are treated really well, loved and respected.

Same for me and I have to say, my brother worked on lab rats when he was a student in Canada.There is a resident feral rat in his roof that he wont let his wife kill - because he loves rats as a result of his studies with them.

There is a thread in OT about the slaughter of brumbies. If they were going to be sent to the doggers in Camden anyway, wouldnt it have been better if they were given to vet schools for students to learn on rather than end up in a crappy can of dog food?

[WoofnHoof]

Thanks Kirty that is where I'm coming from, I first became aware of this issue after speaking to a vet grad who had been through the course and was so concerned about what she believed was desensitization of the students she made it the focus of her honors project. I find it really interesting and I think it's worth looking at, it could just be the culture at that particular uni too, like I said I got the impression when I was there that sensitivity was percieved as a 'weakness'.

Raz the horse slaughter issue has many different facets particularly those that go to slaughter for human consumption rather than dog food, there are a myriad of issues but perhaps they would be used in unis if they weren't worth so much for meat (around $500) no doubt it would be preferable to slaughter in many cases although probably not for Brumbies since the stress involved would be the same if not more than slaughter.

[raz]

Raz the horse slaughter issue has many different facets particularly those that go to slaughter for human consumption rather than dog food, there are a myriad of issues but perhaps they would be used in unis if they weren't worth so much for meat (around $500) no doubt it would be preferable to slaughter in many cases although probably not for Brumbies since the stress involved would be the same if not more than slaughter.

Do they go to slaughter here for human consumption or do you mean they go OS for human consumption? I'm not following you - we dont have a culture here of eating horse meat. That thread was really sad, though. If those brumbies just end up on a plate or in a can, isnt it better for them and us if they go to humane animal research in a Uni instead?

[stormie]

Thanks Kirty that is where I'm coming from, I first became aware of this issue after speaking to a vet grad who had been through the course and was so concerned about what she believed was desensitization of the students she made it the focus of her honors project. I find it really interesting and I think it's worth looking at, it could just be the culture at that particular uni too, like I said I got the impression when I was there that sensitivity was percieved as a 'weakness'.

I guess maybe it varies then because for my boss, he swears for his year, it was the total opposite. He says the fact they were operating on live animals made them so much more careful as they were aware the animal was alive and anything they did wrong, could potentially kill it.

He says the whole experience was quite emotional, the students were very careful and gentle. His perception is that this would not be the case so much working on cadavers, as they are already dead and there's no risk of doing anything wrong.

So again, maybe things changed as the years went by, but I can tell you from my boss's personal experience with his year and his wife's year, what you mention certainly wasn't the case.

[Staranais]

I suspect you will find some desensitisation of the students in any vet degree, WoofnHoof. I know it is similar for human doctors and medics But if you burst into tears every time you saw a suffering sheep or bleeding dog, you also simply couldn't do your job.

There are lots of rather nasty things that vet students need to get used to. Some of the routine procedures done on large animals are simply not very kind at all (half asphyxiating a sheep to collect a urine sample, anyone? Castrating baby animals with no anaesthetic? Using an electric probe up the rectum to collect semen?) Coming to terms with the fact that some animals will only get treated up to their monetary value as so many kg of meat or milk can be hard if you (like me) actually rather like cows and sheep. Plus putting down pet animals is always a tear jerker. Dissecting pet animals from the pound and doing post mortems is also something you need to get used to. Doing surgery itself (taking a blade and cutting open the belly of a living, breathing animal) took some adjusting to, believe me.

Of the things I've done and seen, non-recovery surgeries haven't been the hardest, not by a long shot.

I would also say that the people in my year who are less compassionate towards animals were that way long before doing non-recovery surgeries.

[raz]

He says the whole experience was quite emotional, the students were very careful and gentle. His perception is that this would not be the case so much working on cadavers, as they are already dead and there's no risk of doing anything wrong.So again, maybe things changed as the years went by, but I can tell you from my boss's personal experience with his year and his wife's year, what you mention certainly wasn't the case.

This is very important to me as an animal owner. I totally agree. If the animal is already dead, the student is not so aware of the repercussions if they stuff up.

Disclaimer - I also feel the same about organ donors. They are so important for doctors - the patient is stil breathing even if it's a machine making them breath and the person is already brain dead.

[WreckitWhippet]

I want to know why "desensitisation" is viewed as such a bad thing or a no no ?

Not being emotionally involved and being capable staying detached, can be very valuable in a career and not just vet medicine. It doesn't mean that you are cruel or do not act in best interests of the animals that present in your surgery.

If you aren't desensitised to a degree, every surgery, euthanasia and bad experience, would compound to the point where it would become a job that you no longer wished to do

[Staranais]

If you aren't desensitised to a degree, every surgery, euthanasia and bad experience, would compound to the point where it would become a job that you no longer wished to do

Or worse. Off topic, but veterinarians have a suicide rate about four times as high as the general population.

[raz]

If you aren't desensitised to a degree, every surgery, euthanasia and bad experience, would compound to the point where it would become a job that you no longer wished to do

Or worse. Off topic, but veterinarians have a suicide rate about four times as high as the general population.

That's dreadful. Probably because they have to put up with non vets who want to whinge about the use of dogs who are going to die anyway being used by vet students so that when they graduate, they actually know how to work with an animal on the slab.

I think petitions like this should only be started by and signed by vet students who know exactly how much training they need - not bloody animal rights activists who want to cry that an animal who is going to be killed anyway is used in the name of science so that our pets end up safe. As I said earlier - feel terrible that pound animals are used by vet students? Dont bloody dump your pet at the pound and you wont have to worry (not directed at you, Staranais. I love vet students )

[WoofnHoof]

Do they go to slaughter here for human consumption or do you mean they go OS for human consumption? I'm not following you - we dont have a culture here of eating horse meat. That thread was really sad, though. If those brumbies just end up on a plate or in a can, isnt it better for them and us if they go to humane animal research in a Uni instead?

They are slaughtered here and the meat is exported, approx 40 000 horses a year according to DAFF. For Brumbies transport and handling is stressful and dangerous so it's debatable whether use in a uni research or study program would be beneficial for the horses but I'd say probably not unless they were trained and desensitized to human contact first which of course is too time consuming for most people much less a commercial enterprise.

That's dreadful. Probably because they have to put up with non vets who want to whinge about the use of dogs who are going to die anyway being used by vet students so that when they graduate, they actually know how to work with an animal on the slab.

Like I said the person I spoke to about this issue was a vet who had been through the program, it was she who felt that the desensitization was an issue and upon thinking about it I do wonder whether this is something that is often overlooked because people need to be 'tough'.

While desensitization is a useful tool to a certain extent it can go too far, most vets become desensitized to a certain extent through their work and you'd seriously have to be a fool with little general animal experience if you think everything is going to be all sunshine and rainbows going into it. And you'd have to be a real fool to believe the same at the end of the course regardless of whether non recoveries were performed as part of it.

I also think that sometimes people confuse desensitization with perspective, perspective is what makes a good vet able to look at every aspect of a case and not allow emotions to override their judgement, not desensitization.

[raz]

They are slaughtered here and the meat is exported, approx 40 000 horses a year according to DAFF. For Brumbies transport and handling is stressful and dangerous so it's debatable whether use in a uni research or study program would be beneficial for the horses but I'd say probably not unless they were trained and desensitized to human contact first which of course is too time consuming for most people much less a commercial enterprise.

Rightyo that makes sense. I didnt think there'd be a market here for horse meat on the table.

As for use in unis, I was thinking more along the line of non recovery surgery - same as the issue of pound dogs. I'd much rather see a horse being used for the future benefit of vet science than ending up in a can of dog food or pot of glue. I still cant get my head around how they transport them, though. Poor bloody animals.

Sorry for going OT

[WoofnHoof]

They are slaughtered here and the meat is exported, approx 40 000 horses a year according to DAFF. For Brumbies transport and handling is stressful and dangerous so it's debatable whether use in a uni research or study program would be beneficial for the horses but I'd say probably not unless they were trained and desensitized to human contact first which of course is too time consuming for most people much less a commercial enterprise.

Rightyo that makes sense. I didnt think there'd be a market here for horse meat on the table.

As for use in unis, I was thinking more along the line of non recovery surgery - same as the issue of pound dogs. I'd much rather see a horse being used for the future benefit of vet science than ending up in a can of dog food or pot of glue. I still cant get my head around how they transport them, though. Poor bloody animals.

Sorry for going OT

Yeah transport is by far the biggest issue, sedation would also be difficult they would have to be darted which has it's own stresses and risks. It's a bit of a different issue to the dogs because dogs are transported, housed and put down the same way regardless of where they are, but with say a domestic horse it might benefit from the individual housing and transport associated wtih a uni euth. When they go to slaughter they are penned together regardless of whether they get on, so there are often injuries and crowding issues. Feral horses on the other hand would be stressed by any handling, mind you some domestic horses are also stressed by any handling because of treatment they have had in the past.

Apparently the WA government is planning to remove some feral horses in the kimberly region by trapping them and transporting them to slaughter in QLD would you believe! Hard to believe that an aerial cull is actually the lesser of two evils but it seems as though that is the case (no doubt a ploy to get welfare groups to agree to an aerial cull IMO), effective population management doesn't seem to be something governments are interested in it's always some dramatic cull because numbers have gotten out of control. Again.

Sorry I've gone more OT it's a bit of a pet topic of mine. :D

[raz]

Hard to believe that an aerial cull is actually the lesser of two evils but it seems as though that is the case

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the other thread. Makes you realise that the animal rights activists are just constantly shooting themself in the foot

[WoofnHoof]

Hard to believe that an aerial cull is actually the lesser of two evils but it seems as though that is the case

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the other thread. Makes you realise that the animal rights activists are just constantly shooting themself in the foot

Not really like I said I think that it's political they don't want a sh!t fight about an aerial cull so they come up with some outrageous scheme to get people to agree to aerial culling.

[raz]

Not really like I said I think that it's political they don't want a sh!t fight about an aerial cull so they come up with some outrageous scheme to get people to agree to aerial culling.

Why dont they have the balls to just say - right we're having an aerial cull rather than subject these wild animals to terror in transporting them and that's all there is to it.

[WoofnHoof]

Not really like I said I think that it's political they don't want a sh!t fight about an aerial cull so they come up with some outrageous scheme to get people to agree to aerial culling.

Why dont they have the balls to just say - right we're having an aerial cull rather than subject these wild animals to terror in transporting them and that's all there is to it.

Because they know damn well that it's not the best they can do it's just the easiest and cheapest. Management of feral horses is difficult but really it's not about the environment or animal welfare it's about freeing up grazing land, if government wanted a humane solution they would put money into researching it. I don't believe they had any intention of trucking those horses to Qld it's not financially viable and most of the animals would be dead or useless as meat by the time they got here anyway.

[raz]

Not really like I said I think that it's political they don't want a sh!t fight about an aerial cull so they come up with some outrageous scheme to get people to agree to aerial culling.

Why dont they have the balls to just say - right we're having an aerial cull rather than subject these wild animals to terror in transporting them and that's all there is to it.

Because they know damn well that it's not the best they can do it's just the easiest and cheapest. Management of feral horses is difficult but really it's not about the environment or animal welfare it's about freeing up grazing land, if government wanted a humane solution they would put money into researching it. I don't believe they had any intention of trucking those horses to Qld it's not financially viable and most of the animals would be dead or useless as meat by the time they got here anyway.

Interesting points I'd like to ask you about - how about a new thread so we stop derailing this one.