Stop The Use Of Pound Animals For Experiments At Queensland University

[stormie]

Thanks Stormy,

What Im wondering is why Vet graduates can't get the surgery experience once they are employed, your response answered most of my question, I guess if a vet graduate did start their own practise there is no one to mentor them, I would not like to take my dog to them even if they had done the practise at uni.

I guess because they are people's animals. They do work experience at clinics whilst they're in uni and I think some get to operate during this time. But again, they're always people's pets. But to an extent, they do. Routine things like speys and castrates are generally the same, but outside Uni, they're seeing different sized lumps, tumours etc, on new breeds of dogs with different skin, fat etc.

Then there's the anaesthetic side of things. Knowing what changes occur in the body if say the oxygen is cut, or the anaesthetic goes to high etc. They need to know the entire function of the body and sometimes the only way to learn is to see it for real. Again, something I'd much rather they learnt at Uni than experimenting on my dogs!!

I worked with a terrible new grad once. It blew me away how much he just did not know, but he had the attitude that he knew everything. Nearly killed some animals because he gave them an anaesthetic dose he thought was right, but was completely made up, and was 3 times the dose.

But atleast if they make mistakes, they've done work at uni to possibly know how to go about fixing it.

Probably makes me sound awful, but I'd rather a vet learnt to castrate 10 pound dogs to be pts rather than learning on my dog!

[raz]

Probably makes me sound awful, but I'd rather a vet learnt to castrate 10 pound dogs to be pts rather than learning on my dog!

It doesnt sound awful at all - it sounds completely rational. I wouldnt let a Doctor cut me open if he or she studied by only watching a computer simulation. How utterly ridiculous.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

no signature from me.

[Rappie]

What Im wondering is why Vet graduates can't get the surgery experience once they are employed, your response answered most of my question, I guess if a vet graduate did start their own practise there is no one to mentor them, I would not like to take my dog to them even if they had done the practise at uni.

They do get the experience when they graduate, but it takes time. There are formal internships available, but they are generally only in referral centres and universities which severely limits the number available. If a vet has been working for a few years, taking one of these internships often involves taking a pay cut back to new grad wages ($40k).

Starting out in private practice has plenty of challenges, not all of them are medical or surgical. Routine surgeries like speys and castrates are easy to come by, but for most others you have to wait for the opportunities to present themselves (ie. coming across a patient with a lump that needs removing). I've been lucky, for the most part I've had good mentors, when something new came along I'd have another experienced vet scrubbed in to teach and assist, then the next time, they'd mill around the surgery to give advice, then later, they'd just be in the clinic to be called upon if I needed assistance. Sometimes though, clients just either a) don't want to see you, or b) will let you examine their pet, but don't want you to go anywhere near it in surgery. This is fair enough, but it doesn't help gaining experience.

After a while though, it starts to make less difference whether you have a done most surgeries before. You develop a varied and adaptable skill set, have a good knowledge of surgical principles and become familiar with your capabilities. It always helps to have done something before, but it's not always possible.

[GoldenGirl85]

I wouldnt have a problem with a new grad doing my pets surgery, provided that they had hands on experience at uni, and there was a fully qualified vet assisting them, that way at least if something did go wrong, they can take over, but the new grad gets the surgical experience

[Jed]

I would agree with everyone who has posted on how these dogs are treated. They are fussed over, taken for walks, treated like princes, because the students really really appreciate what the dogs are doing for them, even though the inevitable would happen no matter where they dogs were ... and the students all like dogs.

The problem with new grads is that most of them go into private practice. The grads are not expected to function as specialists, but the are expected to be cost effective. If they have had nil experience with any living animal, it is harder for them. Their practice might accept them taking 3/4 hour to spey A cat, but if they are still taking 3/4 hour after 4 months, they wont keep their job long. .... and this applies to any type of surgery. New grads begin on the easy stuff, once they can do that, the practice will allow them to do more difficult stuff. It is pretty demoralising to have studied for 5 years, and to be sacked from your first job because you are inept.

The clients would not be impressed if the operation took so long the animal died, or if the speying took so long, the animal was terribly bruised and sore for a week.

Maybe we should get up another petition in opposition to that one??

[WreckitWhippet]

I would agree with everyone who has posted on how these dogs are treated. They are fussed over, taken for walks, treated like princes, because the students really really appreciate what the dogs are doing for them, even though the inevitable would happen no matter where they dogs were ... and the students all like dogs.

The problem with new grads is that most of them go into private practice. The grads are not expected to function as specialists, but the are expected to be cost effective. If they have had nil experience with any living animal, it is harder for them. Their practice might accept them taking 3/4 hour to spey A cat, but if they are still taking 3/4 hour after 4 months, they wont keep their job long. .... and this applies to any type of surgery. New grads begin on the easy stuff, once they can do that, the practice will allow them to do more difficult stuff. It is pretty demoralising to have studied for 5 years, and to be sacked from your first job because you are inept.

The clients would not be impressed if the operation took so long the animal died, or if the speying took so long, the animal was terribly bruised and sore for a week.

Maybe we should get up another petition in opposition to that one??

Yep and I'd be the first to put my name to it

[Shmurps]

I'm all for the practical experience, I would like to think there were more recovery surgeries done than just PTS surgeries.

Greyhounds don't get a lot of respect.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Shmurps

[dogbesotted]

altho i find it sad that these poor creatures die.. BUt what is ethically worse:

using those who are going to be euthanised and learning from them before they die. or using animals bred to die ....

the latter i find morally wrong

it is a very emtional topic and thankfully will remain so... if not we have lost our respect for life.

H

[Jed]

I'm all for the practical experience, I would like to think there were more recovery surgeries done than just PTS surgeries.

Greyhounds don't get a lot of respect.

I don't know about greyhounds generally, but the greyhounds in the vet school at UQ are afforded a lot of respect. There is also the possibility that one will catch the eye of a student ............... not always.

Our opinions on surgeries on pound dogs, and experience with greyhounds are coloured by our experiences. I have seen the pound dogs a UQ out on the lawns, playing with students, getting treats, or going for a walk. Students would probably prefer to do recovery surgery but whatever, they are grateful to the dogs, and endeavour to make life as good as possible, and they do realise the necessity of what is happening to make them better vets.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Jed

[casowner]

I know that I used to get to school 1hr early to ensure that all of the greys got a walk and cuddle every morning. They were loved even if it was for a moment.

[hoffpig]

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Edited December 1, 2010 by hoffpig

[Are You Serious Jo]

Ummm, what you have posted about isn't the subject of the petition. I can say with 100% certainty that you are completely clueless about what is happening at UQ, yet you are happy to sign a petition opposing it. Non-recovery surgeries don't involve pain, and food trials are just that, feeding a certain food and taking data on health etc. There is NO vivisection, there is NO drain cleaner dripped into eyes. You are spouting animal lib information from the 80's, that is NOT occurring at UQ. I was involved with a lot of animal stuff at UQ and had a supervisor on the ethics committee and have seen things first hand. You clearly haven't even read about the issue, please go do some research of your own then comment.

[hoffpig]

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Edited December 1, 2010 by hoffpig

[hoffpig]

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Edited December 1, 2010 by hoffpig

[hoffpig]

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Edited December 1, 2010 by hoffpig

[raz]

Our top-flight surgeons seem do work miracles without the benefit of learning from killing living people.

And some of those miracles come about because they have been able to take the organs from a living human. You do realise those people who donate their organs arent actually 'dead' when the doctors take them, dont you? But they're about to die so they kindly donate what can be used to save someone else. It doesnt mean they havent died with dignity, does it!

And if you have a problem with what might be happening in Guatemala or Egypt, put your energies there. That has nothing to do with this petition againt QU or this thread - you're just hijacking.

[hoffpig]

Ah, surgeons might take organs from a "dying" human being - but they don't get to experiment on perfectly healthy folk at, say, $2 a pop, honing their skills.

Edited December 1, 2010 by hoffpig

[hoffpig]

Editing to expunge a rather heated observation. Hmm, hijacking, and where debate goes on these forums. Hijacking? Moi? You have SO got to be kidding.

Edited November 14, 2010 by hoffpig

[Sue]

Well, actually they do experiment of living humans, often without the paticipants knowledge. National Women's Hospital cervical cancer enquiry

I would be there are a fair few humans being used for experimentation without their knowledge right now, especially in areas where access to information and education is limited and doctors are viewed as gods.

For those saying that these animals should be woken up - what then? Who is going to adopt them?