Stop The Use Of Pound Animals For Experiments At Queensland University

[stormie]

I'm just interested in which part exactly is inhumane? The surgery? Because they're happy for that to happen to their poundies, or is it the putting to sleep bit? Because they do that themselves every day.

That is a very good question.

They used to perfrom the surgery, and wake the dog back up (ie let it recover) and then euthanse it.

You can see how that is potentially inhumane.

Then it was changed to perform the surgery but never let the dog wake up, and now the dogs that have the surgery can be rehomed.

I'm not sure when that happened, but I can tell you when my boss was doing non-recoveries (and this was just over 20years ago now), they were never woken up - hence the name NON-RECOVERY. Once the procedure was done, they were put to sleep whilst still under GA.

Perhaps allowing a dog to wake up, experience the pain and then be put to sleep, could be considered inhumane, as they'd be experiencing unnecessary discomfort. But putting them to sleep whilst still under GA, is not inhumane.

[Jed]

UQ has been doing non recovery surgeries since 1985 to my certain knowledge. As far as I am aware, they were done before that too. I have never heard of any dogs coming out of anaesthesia.

Where and when did "they" do recovery surgery,aussielover? That doesn't sound like best practice.

[aussielover]

Universities which do not allow operations on living dogs/animals have a reputation for not producing the calibre of graduating vets as those which do.

Vets from "better" unis are likely to score better jobs, be allowed to do more procedures and generally expand their knowledge base, so they become better vets faster.

There are some excellent vets out there, but there are some ordinary ones too, and I am against any move which is sure to produce more ordinary vets.

I cannot see any drama about dogs which are going anyhow being used to provide non painful assistance to veterinary students, which use assists everyone with a pet.

More animal rights nonsense. Dead is dead. Suffering is suffering. If there is no suffering, there is no problems in my opinion.

Although sydney uni doesn't allow non-recovery surgery, students are provided with plenty of opportunity to practise surgical skills on live animals during RSPCA clinics, where the animals are allowed to recover and are then potentially rehomed.

They also get to practice on live animals during their internships at both sydey and camden clinics under strict supervision of course.

Also, during clinical rotations the students are allowed and encouraged to perform routine surgeries.

Though personally I don't have a problem with non recovery surgery if the animal is due to be PTS anyway, i do find it offesnive and misleading to suggest that students who don't have the opportunity to do non recovery surgeries are substandard (if thats what you're saying???). i think you'll find a number of specialist surgeons and medicine specialists are graduates of unis (such as sydney) which do not perform non recpvery surgery during their course.

Edited- oops misread the part about unis who don't use live animals (not non recpvery surgery)

Edited December 8, 2010 by aussielover

[aussielover]

UQ has been doing non recovery surgeries since 1985 to my certain knowledge. As far as I am aware, they were done before that too. I have never heard of any dogs coming out of anaesthesia.

Where and when did "they" do recovery surgery,aussielover? That doesn't sound like best practice.

Sorry, the University of Sydney used to do this, not UQ.

They are not doing this anymore though.

ETA- the purpose of this was to enable the students to monitor recovery and deal with anaesthetic recovery emergencies

Edited December 8, 2010 by aussielover

[Staranais]

I'd be really interested to see research on whether schools that do non-recoveries do tend on average to turn out more competent or more confident new graduates, but I suspect the research either hasn't been done or it would be very hard to avoid bias.

If you compared institutions, it would be pretty easy to cherry pick good and bad institutions that are using either teaching style to include in your study, either accidentally or because you have an agenda, without it being obvious to anyone reading the study.

I guess you could investigate how confident vets felt upon graduating from different courses, and how competent their new bosses found them to be, but you'd need to be really careful to ensure that the vets didn't know the purpose behind the study (since some vets choose recovery or non-recovery deliberately for either strongly held ethical reasons, knowing what the study was investigating would influence some vet's replies).

Anyway, I imagine you could design very good teaching programs that did or that didn't do non-recovery surgeries. But turning a non-recovery program into a recovery-only one would take a lot of careful thought. Just chopping the non-recoveries from a course without a plan to replace those experiences with something just as educational (not just more routine spays!) would inevitably turn out inferior graduates.

[Skitch]

TAFE SA used greyhounds that were no longer required by their trainers, I would be walking one in the morning in the morning and then seeing him/her on the table for a non recovery procedure in the afternoon it was heartbreaking (don't know the current status). Emotively it is a very difficult situation but what is the answer? We need vet students to learn before they start practicing on our own pets so what is an alternative that will satisfy everyones beliefs?

... Really? What did you study and how long ago? I studied vet nursing at TAFE SA Gilles Plains and we also used ex racing/trained greyhounds.. but NEVER for non recovery processes and I was under the impression that this is something that had never happened at TAFE SA because the animal courses there do not require the students to learn from animals by performing non recovery operations. I think over all the greyhounds at TAFE were very well cared for when I was there.. they had their own air conditioned building with runs, a big outdoor pen to run around in and apart from having to endure a bit of poking and prodding from students they had a pretty good life! I was quite pleased and excited to see the greyhounds I studied with (Rosie, Bambi, Patch and Magic in case they were the same as yours!) up on pet rescue for rehoming via GAPSA just recently.. I nearly wanted to adopt them! One of the greys I studied with was put to sleep because he unfortunately bit a student but there's no need for me to explain why that was appropriate.

[sandra64]

Im going to put my head on the chopping block here. I work for UQ as an animal technician looking after lab animals. It is grossly misleading to compare the bad old days to what happens now. Most people who do this job are animal lovers (i was a vet nurse for 7yrs), and would not be in this industry if it was so horrific as people think.

The dogs that are used for the vet school are extremely well looked after and loved untill they are used or used then rehomed. A brand new state of the art facility has recently been built with play gyms and sand pits for the dogs. The people who run it are very much for humane and respectful treatment of these animals.

It is really unfair too to just pick on vets using animals in non recovery practice as human doctors use them too, these animals that i have been involved with would otherwise have ended up at the meatworks. There is no pain or suffering involved for them at all as they are treated fantastically before and during the procedures.[

Edited December 8, 2010 by sandra64

[mita]

The dogs that are used for the vet school are extremely well looked after and loved untill they are used or used then rehomed. A brand new state of the art facility has recently been built with play gyms and sand pits for the dogs. The people who run it are very much for humane and respectful treatment of these animals.

It is really unfair too to just pick on vets using animals in non recovery practice as human doctors use them too, these animals that i have been involved with would otherwise have ended up at the meatworks. There is no pain or suffering involved for them at all as they are treated fantastically before and during the procedures.[

Yes, amazing how this thread is still bleating on & I haven't seen one response to helping the ex-pound dogs & cats, available for adoption from UQ vet school, find a new home. They've had all their vet work done there....like desexing etc. And they wake up, ready to live in the best of circumstances, until adopted. Hint, hint, if this process is highlighted & supported, then more ex-pound animals live to see a better day.

[aussielover]

I'd be really interested to see research on whether schools that do non-recoveries do tend on average to turn out more competent or more confident new graduates, but I suspect the research either hasn't been done or it would be very hard to avoid bias.

If you compared institutions, it would be pretty easy to cherry pick good and bad institutions that are using either teaching style to include in your study, either accidentally or because you have an agenda, without it being obvious to anyone reading the study.

I guess you could investigate how confident vets felt upon graduating from different courses, and how competent their new bosses found them to be, but you'd need to be really careful to ensure that the vets didn't know the purpose behind the study (since some vets choose recovery or non-recovery deliberately for either strongly held ethical reasons, knowing what the study was investigating would influence some vet's replies).

Anyway, I imagine you could design very good teaching programs that did or that didn't do non-recovery surgeries. But turning a non-recovery program into a recovery-only one would take a lot of careful thought. Just chopping the non-recoveries from a course without a plan to replace those experiences with something just as educational (not just more routine spays!) would inevitably turn out inferior graduates.

I think competency and confidence have more to do with number of surgeries performed during the course, rather than "type" of surgery ie recovery vs non recovery.

[WoofnHoof]

There were interns assisting with my dog's surgery when he was at Sydney Uni vet, they were working under the supervision of arguably the best shunt surgeon in the world, I'd suggest that the vets coming out of that program would be very highly sought after indeed. At least they would be able to recognise shunt symptoms when they saw them, unlike my local vets! Actually I tell a lie I'm pretty sure that the junior vet at the practice suspected a shunt but she was overruled by the senior vets, but that is only the impression I got nothing was said outright.

Interesting you mention the adoption program Mita unfortunately I heard the fool on river 949's breakfast show making a very distasteful comment about the dogs available for adoption from UQ he got in trouble for it and had to apologise but his whole attitude made me sick There is a real perception problem associated with pound dogs and it's frustrating, it would be good to get the uni program on the same wave of promotion as the Pedigree adoption drive which seems to be perceived much more favourably.

[Staranais]

I think competency and confidence have more to do with number of surgeries performed during the course, rather than "type" of surgery ie recovery vs non recovery.

I don't.

Sure, numbers help. Sure, the more spays & neuters I do by myself, the more confident I feel about doing desexings, and the more confident I feel about doing surgery in general.

But doing a routine neuter where nothing goes wrong is IMO different for a student surgeon than doing a GIT or orthopaedic surgery, or a surgery where something goes wrong & your patient has a huge bleeder or is crashing on the table (all of which are simulated in our non-recoveries).

Like I said, I am completely sure you could design a really good course that was recovery-only. But it would take a bit of thought. I would not like to see these experiences taken out of our course without replacing them with something similar (not just more routine recovery castrates). After going through the course, I feel I really benefited from them.

[mita]

There were interns assisting with my dog's surgery when he was at Sydney Uni vet, they were working under the supervision of arguably the best shunt surgeon in the world....

Interesting you mention the adoption program Mita unfortunately I heard the fool on river 949's breakfast show making a very distasteful comment about the dogs available for adoption from UQ he got in trouble for it and had to apologise but his whole attitude made me sick There is a real perception problem associated with pound dogs and it's frustrating...

Yep, Woof, one of the reasons I used to take our pets to the UQ vet clinic, was because they then contributed to the vet training program...and were under the supervision of excellent vets.

From across the campus where we trained students in a child-related specialty, I knew how important it was for them to actually work with real difficulties under clinical supervision. The rule of thumb was that these children got the best of care, ethically & practically. My experience was the same for how the pets were treated in the vet school clinic.

I agree about the ignorant attitude that's still out there...about ex-pound animals.

The first day I walked into the the uni's cats for adoption playroom, I was gobsmacked.

Here were 30 cats that'd been rescued from the pound & kept for a year at UQ....& they were the most healthy, gorgeous, well socialised bunch of pusses I'd seen.

The staff member said they had a theory. Trusting cats with good attitudes, were likelier to get trapped or picked up & taken to the pound. The real strays were far more cunning. So many of them, had probably had a reasonable pet life before the pound.

Then, in their year at the uni, they got the best of everything....from vet care, to loads of attention from people. And all this showed!

I'm slightly more a dog person than a cat person, but I could've taken home every one of those 30 cats. A match was made easier, tho', because the staff had such a handle of each puss's personality. They'd even been rated for how comfortable they were with a dog around.

Obviously that river 949 bloke had never been there! Or met an ex-UQ cat or dog.

By the way, the recent newsletter from the UQ companion animal centre told how a little bunch of baby kittens had been found toddling around the campus. They'd been taken in, given all vet care & were very busy being well socialised with loads of attention, so they can be adopted out.

[Chipps]

An update from the Qld Courier Mail: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/dogs-fr...6-1225968537320

I understand it's a media article, but seems the majority of replies support this policy.

Cheers

Edited December 11, 2010 by Chipps

[Chipps]

Sorry double post. how do I delete?

Edited December 11, 2010 by Chipps

[Souff]

An update from the Qld Courier Mail: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/dogs-fr...6-1225968537320

I understand it's a media article, but seems the majority of replies support this policy.

Cheers

And could that be because the majority of the replies were handpicked ?

On another note, it is a very good thing that this particular student did not go on to be a vet .....

One UQ veterinary student, who asked not to be named, said she left the course because she couldn't bear to see the dogs – some only two months old – being operated on.

"Looking at their sad, scared little faces used to make me physically ill," she said.

"I would cry just about every single time. . . knowing the dog lying in front of me was never going to wake up again."

When animals are anaethesised there is a chance that they might not pull out of it, so she should be viewing every anaesthesia in that light. Also, seeing some of the dogs literally being thrown off the table when they are shocked back into life is not a pretty sight either. More than most pet owners could stand and I suspect more than that vet student would have ever been able to cope with.

We need vets who can turn off their emotions and get on with the job. And that is not easy, it takes special people to be able to switch off and then switch back on again.

Souff

Edited December 11, 2010 by Souff

[stormie]

Exactly, Souff! Every animal she would have operated on would look exactly the same before surgery she'd be doing.

But then again, maybe that's why more and more vets are doing less and less surgery

[*Bones*]

From the Courier Mail

One UQ veterinary student, who asked not to be named, said she left the course because she couldn't bear to see the dogs – some only two months old – being operated on.

"Looking at their sad, scared little faces used to make me physically ill," she said.

"I would cry just about every single time. . . knowing the dog lying in front of me was never going to wake up again."

Obviously unsuited for the profession.

[raz]

From the Courier Mail

One UQ veterinary student, who asked not to be named, said she left the course because she couldn't bear to see the dogs – some only two months old – being operated on.

"Looking at their sad, scared little faces used to make me physically ill," she said.

"I would cry just about every single time. . . knowing the dog lying in front of me was never going to wake up again."

Obviously unsuited for the profession.

Sorry but that's hilarious. Not someone I want working on my dogs under GA. Actually I would want her near my dogs full stop. She'd probably burst into tears just to clip their nails or give them a vax

Edited December 12, 2010 by raz

[Staranais]

I don't know, I wouldn't laugh at her - it would have upset me too.

But on the other hand, there are lots of upsetting things you need to do when you're learning to be a vet. I think you're right that perhaps she wouldn't have lasted through the course. If she couldn't cope with this, she may also not have coped with the various horrible things we do to farm animals, or with putting to sleep the unwanted kittens when you're on the SPCA roster, or with aborting baby puppies and kittens, or etc. I really don't like any of those things myself.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Staranais

[*Bones*]

Quite sad that she commenced study, only for it to be unsuitable. I suppose she loves animals, and had high school leaving scores, so she decided to be a vet. Rather more than that is necessary to be a good one.

A difficult profession, requiring intelligence, desire to continue to learn, manual dexterity, love of animals, compassion, and some people skills - for a beginning.