Stop The Use Of Pound Animals For Experiments At Queensland University

[Jed]

Hoffpig

Back to the arguments: The concern is the animals. Our top-flight surgeons seem do work miracles without the benefit of learning from killing living people. How do they manage to achieve this? If anyone out there really wants to stick by their guns, and surrender their pets when their number is up, to the vets of the future, to operate on and then despatch in a totally humane way, with students stroking them and all the rest ... you go for it. And seriously, do us all this favour and let "your pets die with dignity".

Our top flight surgeons seem to work miracles because they do a 5 year course, followed by an internship and a residency. During both those periods, they observe operations, deal with the simpler matters pertaining to operations, and go on to do fully supervised operations on the patients - beginning with very simple ones, working up to complex ones during that period. They are never unsupervised. This happens in large hospitals with quite a few staff.

Totally different system. The interns are learning on people - supervised by a resident, or a surgeon. The new grad is learning on your dog or cat - probably supervised by no one.

Vets have 5 years to learn about ALL animals, not just one type. There is no public hospital system, there are only private pratices. A senior vet may supervise operations. And if the new grad has no experience with living tissue, and kills YOUR pet, no one except you notices. The vet probably feels bad, but fact is, no one is going to supervise 24/7, so the more experience the new grad has prior to working, the better.

Mita and I have both explained about the "food trials" - which do not involve force feeding, they involve weighing and noting, and there are good homes at the end of it.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Jed

[stormie]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but out of curiosity how would you know if the procedure was successful when the dog is put to sleep? Isn't recovery and after care part of it.

Intra operatively, you know it's a success, so for eg, doing a splenectomy, its considered a success if the spleen is removed and there's no haemorrhaging. Same things with an intestinal operation, if you tie off the wrong thing, you'll see the intestine going blue pretty quickly.

The students were actually encouraged that if they wanted to take home one of the dogs or cats, they were allowed.

Edited November 16, 2010 by stormie

[Staranais]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but out of curiosity how would you know if the procedure was successful when the dog is put to sleep? Isn't recovery and after care part of it.

Intra operatively, you know it's a success, so for eg, doing a splenectomy, its considered a success if the spleen is removed and there's no haemorrhaging. Same things with an intestinal operation, if you tie off the wrong thing, you'll see the intestine going blue pretty quickly.

The students were actually encouraged that if they wanted to take home one of the dogs or cats, they were allowed.

Yes. You also have the surgery teachers watching over your shoulder as you operate, telling you you've done a part of the surgery well, or why you've done a bit badly & how you should do it better next time. They're experts, and have done thousands of surgeries, so they know if what you're doing is good or bad, and they tell you.

We were not allowed to wake up & keep our sheep, partly I suppose because they're not pets, but also partly because it is considered cruel to do unnecessary invasive procedures then wake them up to suffer through the recovery. They apparently used to do multiple recovery surgeries on the same sheep during the year, but doing non recovery surgeries as we do now is considered kinder and less stressful (although it uses more sheep), so now we only have ethics approval to do non recovery.

I'm glad we don't do non recoveries on dogs, I'd find it emotionally challenging. Dissecting already dead dogs, and being involved in euthanising and postmorteming various animals, is hard enough for a softie like me. Although I have learned a lot from doing it on sheep, and am very happy I had the experience.

[Danois]

Our top flight surgeons seem to work miracles because they do a 5 year course, followed by an internship and a residency. During both those periods, they observe operations, deal with the simpler matters pertaining to operations, and go on to do fully supervised operations on the patients - beginning with very simple ones, working up to complex ones during that period. They are never unsupervised. This happens in large hospitals with quite a few staff.

Totally different system. The interns are learning on people - supervised by a resident, or a surgeon. The new grad is learning on your dog or cat - probably supervised by no one.

Vets have 5 years to learn about ALL animals, not just one type. There is no public hospital system, there are only private pratices. A senior vet may supervise operations. And if the new grad has no experience with living tissue, and kills YOUR pet, no one except you notices. The vet probably feels bad, but fact is, no one is going to supervise 24/7, so the more experience the new grad has prior to working, the better.

Mita and I have both explained about the "food trials" - which do not involve force feeding, they involve weighing and noting, and there are good homes at the end of it.

The other distinction is doctors get the benefit of having patients who talk to them, explain symptoms, pain etc

[Rappie]

The other distinction is doctors get the benefit of having patients who talk to them, explain symptoms, pain etc

Surgeons in training programs also have the benefit of primarily seeing surgical cases and doing surgery.

Veterinarians in general practice try to juggle everything - providing customer service, managing medical and surgical cases, dealing with hospital staff, clients etc, and THEN trying to improve surgical skills as an aside.

[Danois]

The other distinction is doctors get the benefit of having patients who talk to them, explain symptoms, pain etc

Surgeons in training programs also have the benefit of primarily seeing surgical cases and doing surgery.

Veterinarians in general practice try to juggle everything - providing customer service, managing medical and surgical cases, dealing with hospital staff, clients etc, and THEN trying to improve surgical skills as an aside.

I think it was stormie who has posted a list before about everything a vet is - general practitioner, pharmacist, surgeon, radiographer etc etc etc etc (and it was a lot of etcs!)

[Rappie]

The other distinction is doctors get the benefit of having patients who talk to them, explain symptoms, pain etc

Surgeons in training programs also have the benefit of primarily seeing surgical cases and doing surgery.

Veterinarians in general practice try to juggle everything - providing customer service, managing medical and surgical cases, dealing with hospital staff, clients etc, and THEN trying to improve surgical skills as an aside.

I think it was stormie who has posted a list before about everything a vet is - general practitioner, pharmacist, surgeon, radiographer etc etc etc etc (and it was a lot of etcs!)

There is a wall poster that lists them all, I think there's about 30 or so 'jobs' that we do.

[~Anne~]

I would much rather a Vet in training develop their skills in a real life way, with the animal humanely treated, than have them develop their skills on my dogs. I believe there is definitely a cause for the use of live animals in this instance.

[WoofnHoof]

I can see both aspects and am still on the fence, the biggest issue I have is with the desensitizing that goes on as a part of the training. Having spoken to UQ lecturers I'm of the impression that this kind of sensitivity is frowned on, and that's not something I believe is necessary for the training of veterinary students. Sensitivity to the subject and to the associated ethical issues does not mean you 'can't hack it' as a vet.

[~Anne~]

I think there is a certain amount of desensitisation that occurs with anyone working in industries where there is regular pain and suffering at any rate. I know that I was able to handle an animal in pain far better than I do now, when I was a Vet nurse. It is not neccessarily a bad thing. It allows you to 'get on with the job' at hand without emotions playing too big a part in your judgement.

[stormie]

It's funny, when I first started nursing, I thought my first euthanasia would be really upsetting for me. But I was surprised to find I didn't get upset.

But these days, I'm totally different and find it really difficult. I tear up putting wildlife to sleep these days. I really struggle to not cry when people come in to have their animals put to sleep. All I can think about, is if that was me in that situation with Orbit. I think about how totally and utterly broken I would be and it just breaks my heart knowing that these people are feeling that feeling there and then. Even just typing this makes me teary!

I have no idea why I have become more sensitive because I only ever imagined it would start hard and get easier.

One thing I just wanted to mention again, is that non recoverable surgeries are NOT limited to UQ. It happens in Sydney and I would guess WA too. So no idea why this petition only targets UQ

Edited November 19, 2010 by stormie

[Kirty]

I spoke to one of our vet students yesterday about this and she was adamant that the animals are very well treated and cared for very well. The university she goes to has actually stopped doing non-recovery surgeries and she is concerned about that. She said she learnt a lot from her work on non-recoveries. I am going to approach the uni and see if they would be interested in letting the vet students desex my trap-neuter-release cats because I believe that they need all the practice they can get. :D

[whippets]

No-one is going to adopt the dogs. It is a matter of keeping animals out of laboratories as much as possible, because past abuse of animals in laboratories has been sickening and horrendous. It is all about being vigilant to the nth degree - and not offering animals up as cheap objects for the experiments of the 80s and 2010s and 2020s like gormless, unconscionable idiots because it might suit science, councils and people who think animals are worth nothing.

Be sure to practice what you preach and refuse any kind of medication prescibed by your Dr during the course of your life. Also if you are unfortunate enough to require aortic valve implantation refuse that. If you get cancer then make sure you refuse any kind of chemo or radio therapy.

All of which would have been tested and experimented on animals before testing on humans.

The only area I have issues with animal testing is for the sake of human vanity ie. cosmetics.

As far as the petition goes. No I won't sign that.

[Rappie]

One thing I just wanted to mention again, is that non recoverable surgeries are NOT limited to UQ. It happens in Sydney and I would guess WA too. So no idea why this petition only targets UQ

Sydney doesn't do non-recovery surgery, but it does use cadavers from the pound for surgery training.

[raz]

One thing I just wanted to mention again, is that non recoverable surgeries are NOT limited to UQ. It happens in Sydney and I would guess WA too. So no idea why this petition only targets UQ

Sydney doesn't do non-recovery surgery, but it does use cadavers from the pound for surgery training.

Really? How do they learn to do things like correct arterial bleeding?

[stormie]

One thing I just wanted to mention again, is that non recoverable surgeries are NOT limited to UQ. It happens in Sydney and I would guess WA too. So no idea why this petition only targets UQ

Sydney doesn't do non-recovery surgery, but it does use cadavers from the pound for surgery training.

Thanks for clearing that up, Rappie. My boss was doing them in Sydney when he went through, but then again, that was quite some time ago

[raz]

Thanks for clearing that up, Rappie. My boss was doing them in Sydney when he went through, but then again, that was quite some time ago

I'm going to tell him you said that!

[stormie]

Thanks for clearing that up, Rappie. My boss was doing them in Sydney when he went through, but then again, that was quite some time ago

I'm going to tell him you said that!

That's ok, his head needs deflating after being told he looks like a 25yo new grad

So Rappie, were they not doing them when you went through? How did you know if you hadn't tied something off right? Some of the things Boss man did when he went through, sounded pretty complex and not something I could imagine you could do on a cadaver. Do you think only working with cadavers was a disadvantage?

[Kirty]

Sydney doesn't do non-recovery surgery, but it does use cadavers from the pound for surgery training.

So, its OK to use dogs that have been PTS at the pound, but its not OK to use dogs that are GOING to be PTS at the pound? What is the difference?

[Greytmate]

One thing I just wanted to mention again, is that non recoverable surgeries are NOT limited to UQ. It happens in Sydney and I would guess WA too. So no idea why this petition only targets UQ

Sydney doesn't do non-recovery surgery, but it does use cadavers from the pound for surgery training.

See I have a problem with this.

I think having to work with an already decomposing dog, instead of a freshly dead one, does not encourage respect for the animal they are working on.

I am sure Sydney uni vet science department goes through more cans of air freshener than that one at UQ does.