Under Cover Pet Shop Assistant On Today Tonight?

[SpikesPuppy]

No home checks (not that I agree with this anyway),

why not ?

Personally, I don't like them. I don't like visitors but that doesn't make me less of a good dog owner, I wouldn't expect a puppy buyer of mine to subject themselves to my invasion of their privacy.

If there is a specific need for a certain fencing arrangement I could understand but as a condition of sale, I'm just not comfortable with them being a requirement.

Granted I'm not a rescuer so maybe I'd see things differently if I were.

[Steve]

When the Magna Carta was being signed animals and property played a pretty big role. Thats because if an animal is not someone's property then someone else can pick it up and take it home and do pretty much whatever they want with it. It also brings into question the fact that if someone doesnt own it - who is going to be held responsible for it? Easing animal suffering is definitely worthwhile but turning animals into a kind of human is another matter

If you are its guardian rather than its owner it implies equality where ownership implies responsibility.

I actually disagree. We are guardians for our children, but they certainly don't get to do whatever they want, and they are certainly not equal to adults. Equal in value, yes, but not equal in standing.

Guardianship implies responsebility just as much as ownership does, maybe even more so because guardianship implies that you have to take care of them and you are responsible for their well-being. Ownership doesn't mean anything. I own my car and if I want to drive it off a cliff I can do so, or set it on fire, or simple fail to get it serviced regularly, or not have it repaired when it needs it. If you fail to have your dog repaired when it needs it it's a criminal offence, so obviously they are more than just property.

Drive around for a day with no rego or unroadworthy and see if its an offence.

[Tim'sMum]

No home checks (not that I agree with this anyway),

why not ?

Personally, I don't like them. I don't like visitors but that doesn't make me less of a good dog owner, I wouldn't expect a puppy buyer of mine to subject themselves to my invasion of their privacy.

If there is a specific need for a certain fencing arrangement I could understand but as a condition of sale, I'm just not comfortable with them being a requirement.

Granted I'm not a rescuer so maybe I'd see things differently if I were.

I just did a home check for a Canberra rescue...and the lady was lovely. She fully understood why someone had to ensure that the dog she was adopting was going to a good home...and it was! I walked through the house briefly and looked at the yard and fencing....so it was not a 'poking and prying' visit, just a check to ensure adequate fencing and get a general impression of the prospective buyer. It did help that there was an immaculately groomed dog there already...ensconced on the couch.

I'm not keen on strangers in the house either but would be happy to have someone do a home check if I was adopting another dog. Particularly with rescue dogs, when a rescuer takes a dog from a pound and puts their heart and soul into caring for it until it is adopted, then a home check reassures them that the dog won't end up back in the pound again.

Anyone can walk into a pet shop, buy a puppy and take it home...to heaven's knows what conditions.

[Steve]

No home checks (not that I agree with this anyway),

why not ?

Personally, I don't like them. I don't like visitors but that doesn't make me less of a good dog owner, I wouldn't expect a puppy buyer of mine to subject themselves to my invasion of their privacy.

If there is a specific need for a certain fencing arrangement I could understand but as a condition of sale, I'm just not comfortable with them being a requirement.

Granted I'm not a rescuer so maybe I'd see things differently if I were.

I just did a home check for a Canberra rescue...and the lady was lovely. She fully understood why someone had to ensure that the dog she was adopting was going to a good home...and it was! I walked through the house briefly and looked at the yard and fencing....so it was not a 'poking and prying' visit, just a check to ensure adequate fencing and get a general impression of the prospective buyer. It did help that there was an immaculately groomed dog there already...ensconced on the couch.

I'm not keen on strangers in the house either but would be happy to have someone do a home check if I was adopting another dog. Particularly with rescue dogs, when a rescuer takes a dog from a pound and puts their heart and soul into caring for it until it is adopted, then a home check reassures them that the dog won't end up back in the pound again.

Anyone can walk into a pet shop, buy a puppy and take it home...to heaven's knows what conditions.

I would buy a puppy from a pet shop any day over having someone inspect me and my home before they would sell me a puppy. If you cnat trust what the person is telling you - then you shouldnt be considering selling them the pup in the first place.

[raz]

Ownership doesn't mean anything. I own my car and if I want to drive it off a cliff I can do so, or set it on fire, or simple fail to get it serviced regularly, or not have it repaired when it needs it. If you fail to have your dog repaired when it needs it it's a criminal offence, so obviously they are more than just property.

No you most certainly canNot drive it off a cliff, set it on fire or drive a defective vehicle because you feel like it, and as has already been said, our pets are defined in law as property.

Edited November 14, 2010 by raz

[raz]

I would buy a puppy from a pet shop any day over having someone inspect me and my home before they would sell me a puppy. If you cnat trust what the person is telling you - then you shouldnt be considering selling them the pup in the first place.

So would I. There is no way I would let a stranger into my home to determine whether or not I am a good dog owner.

edit for clarity - ofcourse if I've built up a bond with a breeder over a period of time with the purposes of buying a pup they wouldnt be a stranger (but they'd know me well enough by then not to need to do a home check I would think) but if eg they lived interstate and made a request on a forum for any tom dick or harry to come through my home, I probably would no longer be interested in buying a pup from them anyway

Edited November 14, 2010 by raz

[Sheridan]

I would buy a puppy from a pet shop any day over having someone inspect me and my home before they would sell me a puppy. If you cnat trust what the person is telling you - then you shouldnt be considering selling them the pup in the first place.

So would I. There is no way I would let a stranger into my home to determine whether or not I am a good dog owner.

edit for clarity - ofcourse if I've built up a bond with a breeder over a period of time with the purposes of buying a pup they wouldnt be a stranger (but they'd know me well enough by then not to need to do a home check I would think) but if eg they lived interstate and made a request on a forum for any tom dick or harry to come through my home, I probably would no longer be interested in buying a pup from them anyway

I didn't have a home check before I got my last puppy but the breeder wanted me to visit another breeder to meet a wheaten in a family situation. Of course, I knew that second breeder was assessing me but that was fine; I thought that was a good way of seeing what we were like and how we interacted with his dogs. We spent a lovely afternoon playing with his wheaten and kerry. The following day I got a call from the breeder saying we would get a male pup if there was one in the litter.

I don't object to home checks but I understand the offense it may cause due to the inferred lack of trust.

[Steve]

I would buy a puppy from a pet shop any day over having someone inspect me and my home before they would sell me a puppy. If you cnat trust what the person is telling you - then you shouldnt be considering selling them the pup in the first place.

So would I. There is no way I would let a stranger into my home to determine whether or not I am a good dog owner.

edit for clarity - ofcourse if I've built up a bond with a breeder over a period of time with the purposes of buying a pup they wouldnt be a stranger (but they'd know me well enough by then not to need to do a home check I would think) but if eg they lived interstate and made a request on a forum for any tom dick or harry to come through my home, I probably would no longer be interested in buying a pup from them anyway

I didn't have a home check before I got my last puppy but the breeder wanted me to visit another breeder to meet a wheaten in a family situation. Of course, I knew that second breeder was assessing me but that was fine; I thought that was a good way of seeing what we were like and how we interacted with his dogs. We spent a lovely afternoon playing with his wheaten and kerry. The following day I got a call from the breeder saying we would get a male pup if there was one in the litter.

I don't object to home checks but I understand the offense it may cause due to the inferred lack of trust.

I think sending you off to meet one in a home setting is a great idea and makes heaps more sense to me than having a house inspection which I feel is way over the top in the list of what hoops you need to jump through to own a dog.

[Souff]

Lets take Animal Liberation Victoria, which recently held the rally that many here supported.

This statement is from their web page that is typical mission of animal liberationist.

http://www.alv.org.au/about.php

TO ABOLISH THE PROPERTY STATUS OF ANIMALS

Animal Liberation Victoria endorses an animal rights position which maintains that all sentient beings, regardless of species, have the right to be treated as independent entities, and not as the property of others.

This is the mantra of extremists.

This is the mantra of PETA.

ANIMAL LIBERATION VICTORIA = PETA

As somebody else said in this thread ... if you want a future where human beings can own a dog as a pet, or to be able to breed from a dog ....

BE VERY CAREFUL WHERE YOU PUT YOUR ALLEGIANCES and particularly, DO NOT DONATE ANY MONEY to these causes.

Every time YOU give a donation to animal liberationist movements YOU ARE INCREASING the odds AGAINST PET OWNERSHIP

EXTREMIST ORGANISATIONS are about power and egos and politics.

EXTREMIST ORGANISATIONS are not seeking a viable future for animals.

Souff

[poodlefan]

The concepts of animals as "property" and animals as sentient beings that deserve care and compassion are not incompatible.

Most people take greater care of things they own anyway.

[raz]

I didn't have a home check before I got my last puppy but the breeder wanted me to visit another breeder to meet a wheaten in a family situation. Of course, I knew that second breeder was assessing me but that was fine; I thought that was a good way of seeing what we were like and how we interacted with his dogs. We spent a lovely afternoon playing with his wheaten and kerry. The following day I got a call from the breeder saying we would get a male pup if there was one in the litter.

I don't object to home checks but I understand the offense it may cause due to the inferred lack of trust.

I dont have a problem with that scenario, Sheridan, and actually think it's a great idea. Fifi did it with a woman who really wanted a wolfie but her husband had never seen one IRL. Sure enough the husband completely freaked out at the size of the dog so they were knocked on the head as potential buyers.

[Souff]

The concepts of animals as "property" and animals as sentient beings that deserve care and compassion are not incompatible.

Most people take greater care of things they own anyway.

One of the things that the canine councils are not promoting is the fact that the MAJORITY of dog breeders DO have the welfare of animals in mind.

If they dont, then they are defeating their own aims.

In order to breed good animals, you have to look after the good animals that you own. If you don't you are just going to end up with a pile of vet bills

Why is it that we read so little about the WELFARE of animals these days? Why is it that we read so little about BEST PRACTICE when it comes to the welfare of animals?

We have read an awful lot about the few bad apples out there and they are in the MINORITY, yet this is rarely stated.

In every activity there will always be a minority who will do the wrong thing.

It is time that breeder organisations and the RSPCA and the governments started to highlight the breeders and owners who are DOING THE RIGHT THING BY ANIMALS.

There are a few million on them in this country to choose from .... they are not exactly in short supply.

Good owners and good breeders are in THE MAJORITY.

If anyone really wants to help animals, give the people who are in this MAJORITY a pat on the back.

Yes, donations are always welcome too ;) ..... but you wont find us out there on the streets with buckets and propaganda.

Souff

edited to fix a few missing bits

Edited November 15, 2010 by Souff

[Souff]

RANT WARNING!

Another thing in this thread that gives me the irrits is the recommendation by the undercover explorer that people should buy a dog from the pound or from a shelter.

This is a notion that promotes another vicious cycle.

The dogs in pounds and shelters are almost always the product of humans disinterest, neglect, abuse (physical or emotional and sometimes both).

Many of the dogs are damaged dogs, it is only the extent of the damage that varies.

Some can be rehabilitated, some cant.

Every time it is promoted that people should buy their next dog from a pound or shelter, there is another person out there who then feels justified on surrendering another dog to a pound or shelter, because they feel that somebody else will give this dog a second chance.

It is a vicious cycle that is being perpetuated by the very people who consider that they are on a journey to liberate animals!

I just don't get it .... I never have "got it" .... and I don't think I ever will. It is blatantly perpetuating a form of animal cruelty! Pass your responsibilities on to somebody else!

IT IS FAR TOO EASY FOR PEOPLE TO GIVE UP ON THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES AS ANIMAL OWNERS.

"The pounds and shelters will take the dog and find a new owner for it" ...

that is the message that is going to the public every time somebody like Ms Dalziel opens their mouth!

I am sorry ... but this message is a whole universe away from good animal welfare.

Souff

[raz]

IT IS FAR TOO EASY FOR PEOPLE TO GIVE UP ON THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES AS ANIMAL OWNERS.

"The pounds and shelters will take the dog and find a new owner for it" ...

that is the message that is going to the public every time somebody like Ms Dalziel opens their mouth!

I am sorry ... but this message is a whole universe away from good animal welfare.

Souff

I couldnt agree more. It's way too easy for people to dump their responsibilities along with their discarded animals

[Shazzapug]

I would buy a puppy from a pet shop any day over having someone inspect me and my home before they would sell me a puppy. If you cnat trust what the person is telling you - then you shouldnt be considering selling them the pup in the first place.

So would I. There is no way I would let a stranger into my home to determine whether or not I am a good dog owner.

edit for clarity - ofcourse if I've built up a bond with a breeder over a period of time with the purposes of buying a pup they wouldnt be a stranger (but they'd know me well enough by then not to need to do a home check I would think) but if eg they lived interstate and made a request on a forum for any tom dick or harry to come through my home, I probably would no longer be interested in buying a pup from them anyway

I wouldnt...I would think of the puppy being bred or puppy farmed to replace the sold one and I just couldnt do it.

[asal]

I would buy a puppy from a pet shop any day over having someone inspect me and my home before they would sell me a puppy. If you cnat trust what the person is telling you - then you shouldnt be considering selling them the pup in the first place.

So would I. There is no way I would let a stranger into my home to determine whether or not I am a good dog owner.

edit for clarity - ofcourse if I've built up a bond with a breeder over a period of time with the purposes of buying a pup they wouldnt be a stranger (but they'd know me well enough by then not to need to do a home check I would think) but if eg they lived interstate and made a request on a forum for any tom dick or harry to come through my home, I probably would no longer be interested in buying a pup from them anyway

I wouldnt...I would think of the puppy being bred or puppy farmed to replace the sold one and I just couldnt do it. :D

never thought of it that way.. so even puppy buyers are feeling guilty before proven innocent? weid, n not nice either way you look at it?

[Souff]

Raz

It really bugs me. Everyone who works with dogs, be they vets, vet nurses, groomers, behaviourists, trainers or whatever, knows that there are a lot of people who in a 5 year period would have had as many dogs and it isn't that the dogs died, they were simply replaced with another type of dog. Some went to other family members, but many of these dogs have been "surrendered". There is one here I could surrender too .... one wrecked flyscreen door was his handiwork at the weekend .... how dare I leave him at home!

But no, I will get new mesh put on it and plan around the little devil next time he is to be left for the day. Yet, an incident like this is enough for some dogs to end up in a pound!

It is just too easy. Too easy to get rid of a problem and let it be somebody else's problem.

[Remarkabull]

Raz

It really bugs me. Everyone who works with dogs, be they vets, vet nurses, groomers, behaviourists, trainers or whatever, knows that there are a lot of people who in a 5 year period would have had as many dogs and it isn't that the dogs died, they were simply replaced with another type of dog. Some went to other family members, but many of these dogs have been "surrendered". There is one here I could surrender too .... one wrecked flyscreen door was his handiwork at the weekend .... how dare I leave him at home!

But no, I will get new mesh put on it and plan around the little devil next time he is to be left for the day. Yet, an incident like this is enough for some dogs to end up in a pound!

It is just too easy. Too easy to get rid of a problem and let it be somebody else's problem.

I knew someone exactly like this. In the 2 year period I was 'acquainted' with her she had 5 different dogs (4 were surrendered to RSPCA and 1 later died, at age of 2), 2 cats (1 returned to pet shop and don't know what happened to the other one) 2 birds (both given away as they were too noisy) 1 ferret (given away because she was too scared to handle it) and a huge number of pet rats (most died, some given away, then she got more because 'they are so cute when they are babies').

When I could handle it no longer and stopped all contact with her I heard that she had gotten another 2 dogs. . They are both probably at RSPCA or a rescue as we speak.

Sorry to go off topic :D

[Souff]

You are not too far off topic.

It was said by the undercover explorer that people should buy their dogs from pounds and shelters - with no explanation given as to WHY so many dogs and pups end up at shelters.

Souff

[Shazzapug]

Raz

It really bugs me. Everyone who works with dogs, be they vets, vet nurses, groomers, behaviourists, trainers or whatever, knows that there are a lot of people who in a 5 year period would have had as many dogs and it isn't that the dogs died, they were simply replaced with another type of dog. Some went to other family members, but many of these dogs have been "surrendered". There is one here I could surrender too .... one wrecked flyscreen door was his handiwork at the weekend .... how dare I leave him at home!

But no, I will get new mesh put on it and plan around the little devil next time he is to be left for the day. Yet, an incident like this is enough for some dogs to end up in a pound!

It is just too easy. Too easy to get rid of a problem and let it be somebody else's problem.

Off topic...sitting at the vets and watch a greyhound trainer come in with the most gorgeous greyhounds on leads and fills out paperwork, and ticks the box....failure to something I cant remember equates to "not the one that I will be a millionare on

"....and they are taken out the back to be put to sleep....some trainers are too gutless and leave the dogs out the back and they come in the front.