Looking For Info On Livestock Guard Dogs.......

[R00]

Question for Lili and Steve,(and others if they know)

How do these types of dogs go if they need to be rehomed at a mature age? Does it take a while for trust to develop or does the dog (I know each dog would be different but as a general rule) just know that they need to trust their new owner? And would the different breeds see any change as a opportunity to move up pack order due to their strong personalities.

[Steve]

Question for Lili and Steve,(and others if they know)

How do these types of dogs go if they need to be rehomed at a mature age? Does it take a while for trust to develop or does the dog (I know each dog would be different but as a general rule) just know that they need to trust their new owner? And would the different breeds see any change as a opportunity to move up pack order due to their strong personalities.

If I move a dog out thats been working with sheep - especially if I send one of those sheep with it - not a problem. But you cant take one which has been lying around on a couch and expect it to look after sheep and vice versa unless you move through the steps you need to ensure you bond them.

You never have to worry about the dog accepting the livestock but rather the livestock accepting the dog and over all they accept what the human in their lives accepts. Maremmas dont have the same responses to pack order issues and often you see the dog with the most dominance acting less assertive.Many of the traditionally accepted canine behaviours are absent or not apparent.

[BJean]

Question for Lili and Steve,(and others if they know)

How do these types of dogs go if they need to be rehomed at a mature age? Does it take a while for trust to develop or does the dog (I know each dog would be different but as a general rule) just know that they need to trust their new owner? And would the different breeds see any change as a opportunity to move up pack order due to their strong personalities.

If I move a dog out thats been working with sheep - especially if I send one of those sheep with it - not a problem. But you cant take one which has been lying around on a couch and expect it to look after sheep and vice versa unless you move through the steps you need to ensure you bond them.You never have to worry about the dog accepting the livestock but rather the livestock accepting the dog and over all they accept what the human in their lives accepts. Maremmas dont have the same responses to pack order issues and often you see the dog with the most dominance acting less assertive.Many of the traditionally accepted canine behaviours are absent or not apparent.

what steve said with a CAO and ASD specific modification:

imo the maremma working style is to bond stronger with the pack (stock)

whereas the CAO & ASD bond strongly to the territory, are more reactive in defence, and by default protect what is in that territory.

Some CAO/ASD show an affinity for the reproductive cycles / behavioural patterns of the stock they cohabit with, as any good observer -

but it is not necessary for them to do their job.

CAO/ASD will tend to have their own canine pack/territory bounds, with other aninals divided into those that are allowed in and those that aren't.

Instinctively they remove birds of prey, rodents, snakes, 4 legged and 2 legged unknowns.

Generally, rehoming a working CAO / ASD is difficult due to dog management issues - wrt a home that is capable of taking an adult CAO/ASD successful in defence ie: they need to be CAO or ASD savvy and knowledgable with dog body language

and understand the psyche and responses of the dog they have in front of them.

Also integrating (ie rehoming) an adult CAO/ASD into another established ASD/CAO working pack/team

would be near impossible without some sort of casualty or veterinary assisstance.

It *can* work, but no one would expect it to or rely on it.

Its not that the CAO see change as an opporutnity to 'move' anywhere, its more their size and innate response to a situation.

Edited November 10, 2010 by lilli

[dogbesotted]

also have a chat with maremma rescue victoria

http://www.mrv.org.au/

the tel no is 02 60718486 ( which is a regional Vic number)..

j can help with advice etc

h

[myValkyrie]

Sorry to hear about your sheep We've used both a Kangal/Anatolian & Maremmas with our goats - they work very differently but both are extremely effective. I also found it really helpful to talk with other goat/sheep breeders who use LGDs & see what is working for them - there are so many variables - your location, predator load & type, property size & layout, fencing, variety of stock etc.

Much as I adore my Kangal & she is brilliant at what she does, I would not recommend her as suitable for a first time LGD owner.

Is that because of her personality/temp or simply as a new owner of the breed there is too much to learn and understand about a LGD?

It's a combination of things - yes, she has a dominant type character, very independent, she is difficult to contain, she is always looking to extend her territory, guards her territory ferociously and is DA & HA within that territory. She's serious, large & fast and gives little to no warning. Managing her so she is not a danger to others has been challenging. She was my first working LGD (she's almost 8 now & retired to house dog) and even after owning, showing & breeding dogs for 20 odd years, she was still a huge learning curve for me - I was lucky to have good support & advice from other more experienced LGD owners. She's taught me a lot & I wouldn't swap her for the world :D but it's been a long hard road.

[Shazzapug]

Sorry to hear about your sheep We've used both a Kangal/Anatolian & Maremmas with our goats - they work very differently but both are extremely effective. I also found it really helpful to talk with other goat/sheep breeders who use LGDs & see what is working for them - there are so many variables - your location, predator load & type, property size & layout, fencing, variety of stock etc.

Much as I adore my Kangal & she is brilliant at what she does, I would not recommend her as suitable for a first time LGD owner.

Is that because of her personality/temp or simply as a new owner of the breed there is too much to learn and understand about a LGD?

It's a combination of things - yes, she has a dominant type character, very independent, she is difficult to contain, she is always looking to extend her territory, guards her territory ferociously and is DA & HA within that territory. She's serious, large & fast and gives little to no warning. Managing her so she is not a danger to others has been challenging. She was my first working LGD (she's almost 8 now & retired to house dog) and even after owning, showing & breeding dogs for 20 odd years, she was still a huge learning curve for me - I was lucky to have good support & advice from other more experienced LGD owners. She's taught me a lot & I wouldn't swap her for the world but it's been a long hard road.

Wow, thanks for the explanation....what does DA & HA mean. On going support and advice from the breeder sounds the key to the management of my future LGD....I had no idea what a huge responsibility it was going to be.

[persephone]

A stands for AGGRESSION

DA=dog aggressive

HA = human aggressive

these dogs need a LOT of good management... and the owner needs to be very much aware of their personality/body language and habits/instincts.

Edited November 10, 2010 by persephone

[casowner]

Until you have actually seen a LGD working it is very hard to contemplate their abilities and due to mines aloof nature even my partner completely underestimated him. When he was taken to the vet with an eye problem I insisted that he was muzzled and that my OH restrained him, both he and the vet thought I was being dramatic until she looked into his face up close and ended up being thrown across the room. He was off of his territory being restrained and had a strangers face cms from his own and he reacted. It made my OH realise that he wasn't just a big teddy and it made him much more aware of his body language. This dog was happy being used as a demo dog at TAFE and was incredibly gentle with family, animals and people he knew but he was never left unsupervised with our children and was put away when strangers were at the house his sheer size made that a must. As I said 20 years working with and training dogs didn't prepare me for him but now after owning and understanding the breed more I am completely dedicated to being a CASD owner for life.

Luckily their are breeders like Lilli whose priority is the breed itself and maintaining the integrity of the CASD/CAO

[Jed]

LGs are very different from other dogs, and each breed has it's own characteristics,

I would consider contacting Andrea who rescues Maremmas, or Vic. rescue, and talking to them. They perhaps may have a dog which has been used with stock, which could move to your place and bond with your stock .. only the rescue will know. They do often need good new homes. The advantage of this is that the dog will be protecting the dog almost immediately.

I know a bit about Maremmas - they will go out to the attacking dog/fox or whatever. They bark loudly and often to discourage intruders. I have a friend with 2 - one stays with the flock, the other goes after the dogs. When a dingo pack turned up, one went for the pack, and killed one, there were a few left, the other left the flock and helped his friend. They killed 3 dingoes. One will go and kill foxes.

I have another friend with one minding goats on the edge of town. he has killed foxes who are in his paddock.

They are good pets too. Just make sure, if you go for a rescue, he has not been dumped because of bad behaviour.

Nasty to lose sheep to damned dogs. (Voice of experience)

[persephone]

Your neighbours will have to be made aware of what you have in your paddocks .... so they or their animals do not inadverdantly enter, and become a target...also perhaps extra barking needs to be thought of?

[Shazzapug]

Spoke to the Compliance Officer today and they gave the dogs back to the owner....as insufficent evidence that they were the dogs that attacked our sheep. Fortunately the dogs were "visiting with friends" and actually live a fair way from here...

dont know why they would have visited on their own? or why the owner hadnt at least done a door knock looking for his dogs? All I know is that we are down to 10 sheep and 3 lambs and wont buy replacement ewes until we have a LGD.

Thankyou to all the people in the thread for their help and advice.

[Steve]

LGs are very different from other dogs, and each breed has it's own characteristics,

I would consider contacting Andrea who rescues Maremmas, or Vic. rescue, and talking to them. They perhaps may have a dog which has been used with stock, which could move to your place and bond with your stock .. only the rescue will know. They do often need good new homes. The advantage of this is that the dog will be protecting the dog almost immediately.

I know a bit about Maremmas - they will go out to the attacking dog/fox or whatever. They bark loudly and often to discourage intruders. I have a friend with 2 - one stays with the flock, the other goes after the dogs. When a dingo pack turned up, one went for the pack, and killed one, there were a few left, the other left the flock and helped his friend. They killed 3 dingoes. One will go and kill foxes.

I have another friend with one minding goats on the edge of town. he has killed foxes who are in his paddock.

They are good pets too. Just make sure, if you go for a rescue, he has not been dumped because of bad behaviour.

Nasty to lose sheep to damned dogs. (Voice of experience)

This behaviour is not common for Maremma as you dont normally expect to find bodies.In almost 20 years Ive never had a dead fox on my property and normally you dont look for dead things you look for no sign of them because they will only actually attack and kill if they are given no option to do so. The year before we had the Maremma we lost over 100 lambs to foxes and I havent lost a single one since - but Ive still never seen any evidence they have killed one.

Usually with two in the paddock one is more likely to go out further to chase the predator off but even then its a last resort to actually kill - though if they have to they dont muck around. We had one incident when I lived on a larger property where we woke up one morning to 4 wild dogs belly up with broken backs inthe dam - but as I said this is uncommon because they prefer to scare them off and they usually do.

[Steve]

Your neighbours will have to be made aware of what you have in your paddocks .... so they or their animals do not inadverdantly enter, and become a target...also perhaps extra barking needs to be thought of?

Mine are not a threat to my neighbours or their animals and if a stranger or a dog enters the padoock they are quite safe though brave because the dog yells and tells them to stay away from the sheep.I have people coming and going all day and I have a dozen or so other dogs here including a working kelpie.

maremmas work by barking, marking and by being completely non agressive to the animals they are working with which enables them to direct the sheep to a safe place.

Other dogs say run or Ill bite you but these just say go there and never bite or nip. Much of how they work is explained by watching them as pets and up close.

If I hear a noise outside and open the door to let the dog out to see what the noise is she stands in front of me and tries to block the door - she wont go out. If I go out she backs up to the bedroom and stays with the kids if ther is no other adult in the house. If there is another adult she moves out ahead of me clearing the area yelling - back off - here comes Mum come near her and Ill kill you. If I go out to the clothes line she checks for snakes and yells but stays within a few feet of me.

She takes her cue on how to react on me and my reactions - so if I yell SHUDDUP she thinks Im barking. If my body language tells her Im stressed and worried about someone or something she knows before I realise she has picked up the cue.

So if a dog comes into the paddock with the sheep the Maremmas move between the dog and the sheep - the dog is quite safe if it leaves the paddock or if it simply stays away from the sheep and doesnt act in a threatening manner and the sheep dont tell the dog they are scared. If a pack of dogs came into the paddock - immediately the dog will move the sheep to a corner and move out to make itself the target rather than the sheep - Its hackles come up - looks like a lion, it bares its teeth and there is no mistaking it - come any closer and you will die .

Even in areas where there are major wild dog and dingo problems they avoid killing if they can. Studies of them with wolves and bears has also shown killing isnt something they choose lightly - but make no mistake when they do - it's quick and very efficient.

Also they help the ewes when they are lambing to clean up quickly to prevent the smell attracting predators, they will use their bodies to provide shelter to the lambs

and I wouldnt live without them.

Now Im going to say something which isnt politically correct - I love these dogs. The ones which are in the house have used their magic to make me love them and depend on them and it surprises me how much I adore them.The ones which are working with the sheep are priceless and I couldnt imagine life without them. The idea of them being at risk or in danger, homeless or needing rescue is horrific and they are expected to act like they are afraid and submissive and traditional temp testing doesnt go well for them. Andrea has done exceptional work in saving probably hundreds from death row but taking on an adult Maremma for the paddock isnt as easy as it sounds and you cant expect just because its the right breed that it has the right training with the right species as well as humans or that it has the necessary genes.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

I dont agree with this 100 % for Maremmas but its close - Much also depends on what the layout of your property is ,its size and how often you are going to see the dog.

Some of this is written for someone who only sees them once a fortnight or so - I see,handle and feed mine every day

http://www.feral.org.au/guardian-dogs/

I also have a heap of stuff which I can email you on breed peculiarities when they are working.

This is an awesome website and tells you most of the story too.

http://www.maremmano.com/amarcord.htm

[Shazzapug]

I dont agree with this 100 % for Maremmas but its close - Much also depends on what the layout of your property is ,its size and how often you are going to see the dog.

Some of this is written for someone who only sees them once a fortnight or so - I see,handle and feed mine every day

http://www.feral.org.au/guardian-dogs/

I also have a heap of stuff which I can email you on breed peculiarities when they are working.

This is an awesome website and tells you most of the story too.

http://www.maremmano.com/amarcord.htm

LOL was going to click print and then saw 137 pages...best saved and read. :D It is going to be a fantastic read thankyou so much for that Steve. I have bookmarked the Amarcord site, another few hrs needed to search it properly.

I think the Mareemas popularity a fews years back has helped me get a pre conceived idea about them....but now I see that they simply werent managed correctly by the owners, and hence end up in rescue. There is one up on the main road and it guards 2 horses, is bored sh!tless and spends all day running the fences barking at cars. Our next door neighbour 2 properties up had one when we first bought this place and while we would be walking our paddoks it would run down and over the creek and scare the bejeebas out of us....it would snarl and bark until we backed away.

So once again thanks for the links.

[espinay2]

A few more resources for you:

LGD.org is a fantastic resource for information on LGD breeds. Visit the Library page for lots of info on a range of relevant topics. On the website you will also find a link to the LGD-L email list on which you can find a lot of knowledgable people from around the world with a variety of LGD breeds.

An excellent book worth getting a copy of if you are interested in working LGD's is "Livestock Protection Dogs: Selection Care and Training' by Orysia Dawydiak and David Sims. One of the best resources out there IMO and a must for anyone considering working LGD's

Pyrenean Mountain Dogs are another LGD breed. Not as popular here in that role for a number of reasons (early experience with backyard breeders and awareness as a result of what happened with Maremmas in this regard which have resulted in most breeders being very selective and sometimes not open to placing them in this role). A full sister to my 'Grace' is a working LGD (along with another half sibling) and very successful at it from all reports.

For general interest here is a link to video of Pyrs at work in the French Pyrenees. It is in French, but even if you don't speak it it is well worth watching:

I agree Andrea is a great person to contact. I have directed people to her for older LGD's on more than one occasion.

Edited November 13, 2010 by espinay2

[persephone]

Thanks for that info , Steve.. I would still like to be forewarned, so as not to wet myself when barked at by a maremma doing his/her duty :D I am not brave.

[Shazzapug]

A few more resources for you:

LGD.org is a fantastic resource for information on LGD breeds. Visit the Library page for lots of info on a range of relevant topics. On the website you will also find a link to the LGD-L email list on which you can find a lot of knowledgable people from around the world with a variety of LGD breeds.

An excellent book worth getting a copy of if you are interested in working LGD's is "Livestock Protection Dogs: Selection Care and Training' by Orysia Dawydiak and David Sims. One of the best resources out there IMO and a must for anyone considering working LGD's

Pyrenean Mountain Dogs are another LGD breed. Not as popular here in that role for a number of reasons (early experience with backyard breeders and awareness as a result of what happened with Maremmas in this regard which have resulted in most breeders being very selective and sometimes not open to placing them in this role). The full sister to my 'Grace' is a working LGD (along with another half sibling) and very successful at it from all reports.

For general interest here is a link to video of Pyrs at work in the French Pyrenees. It is in French, but even if you don't speak it it is wekk worth watching:

I agree Andrea is a great person to contact. I have directed people to her for older LGD's on more than one occasion.

What is the difference in the appearance of the Mareema and the Pyrenease? It may well be a Pyrenease that was next door and up the road too.

[espinay2]

To the unititiated they can be quite similar. Pyrs are generally larger, ear set and eye shape generally different. Pyrs have a low ear set, close in to the head, Maremma's are generally set a bit higher. Eyes on a Pyr are more almond or 'angulated' than the Maremma as a rule. Some lines of Pyrs are heavier looking, though many of the European line dogs being introduced to the country now (rightly) have more in common type-wise with the Maremma than the Newf which is how it has been in the past here. Pyreneans have double dew claws on the hind legs. Pyrs can be all white or marked (sometimes lightly, sometimes a bit darker - in colours such as wolf grey, lemon or badger) generally on the head with occasionally some spots on the body. Maremmano are only all white. Pyrs have a repuation for being more 'social' and not quite as sharp. this can be line specific though as again many of the European linesseem to have a stronger 'work ethic' and more of whatis often referred to as 'primitiveness' while still being good working around people. Pyrs are generally held to be one of the more people oriented of the LGD's while still maintaining good working ability.

[Shazzapug]

That is a great video....I am going to look up others to watch now. ☻