Motivating Dog/teaching Tricks Issue

[aussielover]

I'm after some opinions and advice on how to motivate/ teach and older dog new tricks.

I am dog-sitting a 2 year old GR x Poodle. She is a lovely dog and gets along really well with Mindy (my labrador) though obviously I would never leave them together unsupervised (esp after reading the bitch fighting thread).

Part of Mindy's daily routine is some obedience and trick training, which I decided to include Ellie in.

It has become apparent that this dog has no obedience training apart from "sit" and doesn't know how to walk on the lead. The owners freely aditted she is allowed to do whatever she likes and is not walked on a lead. Which is fine, it is their choice as to her level of training and she is not out of control; she is well behaved in the house and at the park (but not on a lead walk). Her terrible lead walking is actually very good for Mindy to learn to walk with a big distraction- a big hairy thing jumping around in her face (she is very good, just has a long-suffering look on her face and a get this thing away from me type look lol)

Anyway, this morning we were doing some trick training and I couldn't even get Ellie to Drop! I tried luring her with the food but she went halfway and would not go any further no matter how any times I tried. I tried just holding the treat down on the floor between her legs- she just gave up and lost interest. I also tried marking the halfway behaviour and then after a few successes then going a bit further- no luck there either ??? I also tried to get her to shake hands, we had some success there- getting her to lift her paw about 1cm off the ground which is a start.

I guess I have been spoiled and always owned dogs that were VERY quick to catch on... Mindy knew many tricks by the time she was 3 months old and is extremely food motivated and learns simple tricks like shake hands, speak, hive five, hi ten etc... within one training session (10-15 mins). Our other dog was also extremely food motivated and very "sharp"

Do some dogs need more time to realise what you want? Do you think this dog is possibly a slower learner (currently) because she hasn't had on-going training from a young age? I am not used to working with a dog that isn't almost over-the top enthusiastic about training. How can i get a dog like Ellie to

a) enjoy training

b) actually learn the trick/command

I have also noticed that Mindy is more naughty and hyper than usual at Ellie's house (but luckily she knows that being tied up= sleepy time) and Ellie ia also ore naughty at our house. I suspect this is normal; they are both feeling unsettled and want to explore/investigate their new surroundings?

Any advice appreciated- Thanks

[sheena]

Have you tried to teach Ellie the "clicker". It has to be taught so that the dog puts real value on the click & understands what it means. If you can clicker train her, which shouldn't be too hard if she likes food, then do some "free shaping" with her using the clicker. Of course do all this without your other dog looking on which will only distract Ellie. Make it as easy as you can for her to learn, if you know what I mean (in an udistracted environment)

[beagie]

I'm after some opinions and advice on how to motivate/ teach and older dog new tricks.

I am dog-sitting a 2 year old GR x Poodle. She is a lovely dog and gets along really well with Mindy (my labrador) though obviously I would never leave them together unsupervised (esp after reading the bitch fighting thread).

Part of Mindy's daily routine is some obedience and trick training, which I decided to include Ellie in.

It has become apparent that this dog has no obedience training apart from "sit" and doesn't know how to walk on the lead. The owners freely aditted she is allowed to do whatever she likes and is not walked on a lead. Which is fine, it is their choice as to her level of training and she is not out of control; she is well behaved in the house and at the park (but not on a lead walk). Her terrible lead walking is actually very good for Mindy to learn to walk with a big distraction- a big hairy thing jumping around in her face (she is very good, just has a long-suffering look on her face and a get this thing away from me type look lol)

Anyway, this morning we were doing some trick training and I couldn't even get Ellie to Drop! I tried luring her with the food but she went halfway and would not go any further no matter how any times I tried. I tried just holding the treat down on the floor between her legs- she just gave up and lost interest. I also tried marking the halfway behaviour and then after a few successes then going a bit further- no luck there either ??? I also tried to get her to shake hands, we had some success there- getting her to lift her paw about 1cm off the ground which is a start.

I guess I have been spoiled and always owned dogs that were VERY quick to catch on... Mindy knew many tricks by the time she was 3 months old and is extremely food motivated and learns simple tricks like shake hands, speak, hive five, hi ten etc... within one training session (10-15 mins). Our other dog was also extremely food motivated and very "sharp"

Do some dogs need more time to realise what you want? Do you think this dog is possibly a slower learner (currently) because she hasn't had on-going training from a young age? I am not used to working with a dog that isn't almost over-the top enthusiastic about training. How can i get a dog like Ellie to

a) enjoy training

b) actually learn the trick/command

I have also noticed that Mindy is more naughty and hyper than usual at Ellie's house (but luckily she knows that being tied up= sleepy time) and Ellie ia also ore naughty at our house. I suspect this is normal; they are both feeling unsettled and want to explore/investigate their new surroundings?

Any advice appreciated- Thanks

poodle crossed with a GR should be pretty smart. With an older dog that has been taught nothing, first thing you do is cut the food back don't feed for a day so

that she gets the idea okay if I can figure out what this human wants bessed I do it real fast if I intend to get fed. That sounds harsh but in reality is not

the dog is probably over fed anyway. You can't expect and older dog to switch on like a new pup, especialy if she has been taught nothing. Theory is you need a

hungry dog if you intend to food train a dog, that has never even had the concept Beagie

[aussielover]

I have no doubt ellie is a very smart girl.

She's probably so clever that she has worked out that the tricks are somewhat pointless and ridiculous and why should she do them LOL

Where as Mindy would sell her soul for food.

I'm not sure starving her for the day would be a good idea- she is not my dog and training her isn't essential.

I am not really a clicker person, i did have one, but with Mindy i use a marker word instead. i find this just as effective and way more convenient as i can mark a behaviour anywhere, anytime.

[Kavik]

Sounds like she hasn't learned how to learn yet. Clicker is a good way to do it, start with simple things. It is only when you start working with a dog that doesn't know how to learn that you realise how much work you have put into your own dog

[Staranais]

Yes, I agree with Kavik, sounds like she doesn't understand what you want yet.

My old boy was like that when I first got him. He had never learned much in his life before I got him, so he just didn't get that he was supposed to do something for me to get something nice. He'd just stand there looking hopefully at the treats. If I lured him to do something he was pleased to get the treat, but initially it didn't seem to make any connections inside his head. It took me about a month to teach him to down.

The good news is that once they understand the concept of learning, it it much easier to teach them new things.

So I'd say, get something you know she wants. That might be really nice food, it might be play or toy play. She won't work if she's not motivated. Don't just use her regular kibble if she's not a guts - she won't want it enough to make any effort to understand.

And secondly, ask for really, really simple things to start with. Things that don't require much, or any, effort from the dog. Nose touching your palm can be a pretty easy one that many dogs like. Alerting to her name is another good one. Once she's got a few easy tricks like those under her belt, then try again with the down.

[sheena]

I wasn't into clickers either (probably out of ignorance) until I went to a Dancing with Dogs, seminar & she showed us how to use it & how to do "free shaping". It's a great training tool & much better than simply using the word "yes". My dog understands that "yes" means the same thing, but when I bring out the clicker, she will do summersaults to please me & get my attention. :rolleyes: Free shaping is a lot of fun for the handler & the dog.

[beagie]

I have no doubt ellie is a very smart girl.

She's probably so clever that she has worked out that the tricks are somewhat pointless and ridiculous and why should she do them LOL

Where as Mindy would sell her soul for food.

I'm not sure starving her for the day would be a good idea- she is not my dog and training her isn't essential.

I am not really a clicker person, i did have one, but with Mindy i use a marker word instead. i find this just as effective and way more convenient as i can mark a behaviour anywhere, anytime.

the reason for using a clicker (which you doubtless know,) is it is an instant and static sound, your voice can change from time to time and dose not register so

quickly on their brains, I have totaly clicker trained Billy, I only need to pick it up and I have instant focus, but of course horses for courses whatever suits

each individual is what we use. Beagie

[Erny]

Sounds like she hasn't learned how to learn yet. Clicker is a good way to do it, start with simple things. It is only when you start working with a dog that doesn't know how to learn that you realise how much work you have put into your own dog

Exactly my thoughts as I was reading the OP. She will, even though it might be slowly at first. When you are using food lure, let her win a treat for successive approximation. IOW, when she goes towards a bow at the front (even if it is only a little bit, but the best she will give) then let her 'win' the treat in your hand. This will get her to know that with a little bit of work, she will win and will start her to become interested in problem solving. Depending on how the dog is about it, this is where I might use a little "Guide, Show Place" combination - but if you're not sure how to do that properly it is easiest and best to have someone who does know how to do it properly, to show you. But I digress a little. Ok - so you repeat the wins a couple of times, then the next time hold out for just a little bit more - and treat. Once you have her in a full front play bow position, release and jackpot her.

All of this of course should ideally be done incrementally, always finishing on a high note and then let her go about the business of digesting what she just learnt (and I don't mean digestion of the food treats!! lol).

If you work this way you should find each couple of practice times getting easier and easier and closer and closer towards your goal.

I use "yes" instead of the "click" from a clicker. Clickers definitely have a popular following and many have achieved really good results with its use, but I prefer to have a free hand. Just personal choice, similar method.

[Paul Bright]

- Only use her favorite treats for training. If she's not into treats, use her favorite toy/s for training ONLY. If she's not into play and toys. Find what she loves and use that for training only.

- Do training before meals so she's hungry (for treat rewards)

- incorporate play into training.

Good luck!