The Reason Why You Cant

[poodlefan]

My boy has skin issues, and no, I was not informed that blue's are prone to skin issues (no big surprise, right?). My boy also has an overshot jaw. I was told of this, but not the implications (i.e. his lower canines jut into the roof of his mouth/palate). As I had no intention of showing or breeding, I didn't mind.

Keep a close eye on the condition of his front teeth. They may be more prone to tartar than in a dog with more correct bite.

Thanks for your advice poodlefan, Raz and BlueStaff. I often check inside his mouth, and I have had the vet check it a few months ago. I will certainly be getting it checked regularly though, as the vet explained what can happen and how he may need GA to take care of it.

And thanks also for not shooting me down!

You were never at risk of that from me. None of us were born with knowledge of how to make an educated puppy purchase. Best of luck with your boy.

[raz]

It happened to my first dog, Jades. It's pretty easy - they just grind it down like they do for humans if a tooth is causing a problem with the bite. If it's piercing his palate he'll be a lot happier having it done - wont hurt him or anything to have the dental job done

[ellz]

My question is this - what would have happened to him if he was born into a litter of a reputable breeder? Would he have been PTS due to his jaw? I have often wondered. I know dogs that aren't "show standard" could be sold to homes as pets, but would the same happen for dogs with a physical (but not disabling) fault?

He would have been put on Limited Registration and sold to a suitable companion home. Once I decide where I stand on juvenile desexing, then this may also be done....but not at present.

Teeth and jaw problems can be a real nuisance because in many cases, there isn't a lot that can be done until the 2nd teeth come in and the jaw settles. That's one of the reasons many breeders will not guarantee a mouth in a baby puppy show prospect...they can move so much during development and can LITERALLY become a bad bite overnight.

[Sandra777]

if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me.

It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Sandra777

[Quickasyoucan]

It happened to my first dog, Jades. It's pretty easy - they just grind it down like they do for humans if a tooth is causing a problem with the bite. If it's piercing his palate he'll be a lot happier having it done - wont hurt him or anything to have the dental job done

Completely Off topic but:

I had a pet dwarf rabbit with mal-occluded teeth, they used to just grow and grow. Vet clipped them back the first 2 times for us and then my dad used to do it every time they started to look too long. Rabbit got used to having it done.

Not suggesting this should be done with a dog as obviously his teeth situation is completely different, but just to say these things happen with pets. That rabbit lived a long and healthy life and died of old age.

[asal]

My question is this - what would have happened to him if he was born into a litter of a reputable breeder? Would he have been PTS due to his jaw? I have often wondered. I know dogs that aren't "show standard" could be sold to homes as pets, but would the same happen for dogs with a physical (but not disabling) fault?

He would have been put on Limited Registration and sold to a suitable companion home. Once I decide where I stand on juvenile desexing, then this may also be done....but not at present.

Teeth and jaw problems can be a real nuisance because in many cases, there isn't a lot that can be done until the 2nd teeth come in and the jaw settles. That's one of the reasons many breeders will not guarantee a mouth in a baby puppy show prospect...they can move so much during development and can LITERALLY become a bad bite overnight.

EXACTLY. but your lucky you are not in nsw, I was hesitant to sell on MR for showing, told the person, there is no way you can accurately assssess an 8 week old pup and that the selection was entirly their choice, since i knew from expierence i have discovered the pet i sold has ended up the best instead of the "pick" I kept, can i go back to the pet buyer and say I made a mistake you have to give me back their pup and take the second grade, i made a mistake and this is the pet pup? interesting isnt it? I cant do that, i HAVE to live with my mistake and either keep mr or mrs second grade or rehome the now pet pup.

yet the buyer can say, I think this pup is the quality i want, then accuse you of being unethical when the little bugger does the same thing to them as your pick did to you. its a totaly weird world... why cant the breeder demand an exchange when its the other way around?????

fellow exhibitors told the lady with the dog she bought that MR is a guarantee of show quality and demand a return, even friends advised me take it back. so the buyer today takes no responsibility for their choices around here anyway, even in that case had already told the breeder they were expienced with how puppys can change and was prepared to accept it on that condition. once it stopped winning all bets were off.

very different mindset now. the breeder is responsible regardless, so forseeing the future should be another talent any aspiring breeder needs to have among their accomplishments , one, who told the owner of the pup, mr is a guarantee of show quality, advised me to never sell a pup on mr unless its already has its adult teeth through.

as you said . so right.

I now understand why so few will mr now.

Edited November 11, 2010 by asal

[asal]

if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me.

It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO.

trouble with your thinking is there are a great many people who totally belive mating a dilute to a dilute is totally wrong and no reason can justify doing so.

so even if the breeder said they were putting the best to the best regardless of colour, do you really think the 10 seconds experts would stop baying for their blood?

i know i think not.

look at the politicion asked to intercede in Judy Guard's behalf? not a finger will be raised to help her by that lot who drafted such a stupid law in the first place, let alone use half the brain they were born with and either rescind or alter what was obviously so easlily used to destroy an innocent person. but being animal related its another instance of guilty until proven innocent, and in her case she has already pleaded guilty so he or any of the others who have put her in this dreadful position will admit they got it soooooooo wrong.

admit a mistake and fix it. why? cant they do it?

so a breeder putting dilute to dilute? no reason on earth comming from their mouth will stop the puppy farming, and breeding for colour, catcalls

Edited November 11, 2010 by asal

[asal]

it is equally funny, that when the same faults pop up in ch to ch matings with NO dilute to dilute matings, the silence of blame is deafening...

and it happens suprisingly often but those breeders are simply unfortunate, not unethical... i do have a sick sense of humour, the more i see of the human race the more illogical i see it is

[jacqui835]

if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me.

It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO.

Well, my understanding is that colour was a key factor in the development of the Weim... They selectively bred for a recessive colour to distinguish the dogs as well as aiming for a superior hunting dog - Weim's were reserved for royalty and the rich and famous for some time after their development and could not be owned merely as a pet, however, unlike other hunting breeds, they were kept inside the house at night because they were so valuable. There were enormous constraints on which dogs could be used for breeding, primarily proof of their working ability, but the unique colour was deliberate and actively maintained, not because these animals were initially the superior hunting dogs, but because they were distinguishable, which was as important to the royals and wealthy who developed them as their hunting ability...

[poodlefan]

if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me.

It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO.

Well, my understanding is that colour was a key factor in the development of the Weim... They selectively bred for a recessive colour to distinguish the dogs as well as aiming for a superior hunting dog - Weim's were reserved for royalty and the rich and famous for some time after their development and could not be owned merely as a pet, however, unlike other hunting breeds, they were kept inside the house at night because they were so valuable. There were enormous constraints on which dogs could be used for breeding, primarily proof of their working ability, but the unique colour was deliberate and actively maintained, not because these animals were initially the superior hunting dogs, but because they were distinguishable, which was as important to the royals and wealthy who developed them as their hunting ability...

And I bet they culled each and every dog that developed health problems, just like they'd have culled dogs that failed to be superior hunters. Times have changed and we don't tend to knock dogs on the head at the first sign of issues these days.

[jacqui835]

if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me.

It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO.

Well, my understanding is that colour was a key factor in the development of the Weim... They selectively bred for a recessive colour to distinguish the dogs as well as aiming for a superior hunting dog - Weim's were reserved for royalty and the rich and famous for some time after their development and could not be owned merely as a pet, however, unlike other hunting breeds, they were kept inside the house at night because they were so valuable. There were enormous constraints on which dogs could be used for breeding, primarily proof of their working ability, but the unique colour was deliberate and actively maintained, not because these animals were initially the superior hunting dogs, but because they were distinguishable, which was as important to the royals and wealthy who developed them as their hunting ability...

And I bet they culled each and every dog that developed health problems, just like they'd have culled dogs that failed to be superior hunters. Times have changed and we don't tend to knock dogs on the head at the first sign of issues these days.

Yes well now we could find pet homes for them - weims weren't allowed to be just pets back then. The blue staffy BYB's have no trouble finding pet homes for their inferior produce and they don't even do any health testing or breed selection...

[poodlefan]

Yes well now we could find pet homes for them - weims weren't allowed to be just pets back then. The blue staffy BYB's have no trouble finding pet homes for their inferior produce and they don't even do any health testing or breed selection...

So that would see those blue SBT breeders homing pups with a risk of inherited health issues - even breeding those pups is now against the law in Victoria. Breeding without that health testing might see a few Victorians end up on the wrong side of that legislation and with the Vic consumer affairs people knocking on the door too. There's a wake up call if anyone needed one. Dogs VIC should be taking a pretty hard look at registering ANY pup from a breeder that fails to health test for known heritable conditions. I doubt the other states will be too far behind on this sort of legislation.

I hope they come up with a DNA test for dilute colour alopecia really soon.

[Sandra777]

so even if the breeder said they were putting the best to the best regardless of colour, do you really think the 10 seconds experts would stop baying for their blood?

i know i think not.

And my guess is that you have as little interest in the beliefs of the 10 second experts as I do

look at the politicion asked to intercede in Judy Guard's behalf? not a finger will be raised to help her by that lot who drafted such a stupid law in the first place, let alone use half the brain they were born with and either rescind or alter what was obviously so easlily used to destroy an innocent person. but being animal related its another instance of guilty until proven innocent, and in her case she has already pleaded guilty so he or any of the others who have put her in this dreadful position will admit they got it soooooooo wrong.

admit a mistake and fix it. why? cant they do it?

so a breeder putting dilute to dilute? no reason on earth comming from their mouth will stop the puppy farming, and breeding for colour, catcalls

;)

Are you saying that it is illegal to breed dilute to dilute somewhere in the world?

I don't disagree that the dog laws are bordering on the insane, but I wasn't aware that they had stretched quite as far as outlawing the breeding of dilute to dilute.

[poodlefan]

Are you saying that it is illegal to breed dilute to dilute somewhere in the world?

I don't disagree that the dog laws are bordering on the insane, but I wasn't aware that they had stretched quite as far as outlawing the breeding of dilute to dilute.

With a one in four chance of producing dilute colour alopecia in some breeds Sandra, I'd suggest its illegal in Victoria NOW!

[Sandra777]

Well, my understanding is that colour was a key factor in the development of the Weim... They selectively bred for a recessive colour to distinguish the dogs as well as aiming for a superior hunting dog

Interesting - thank you for the information. The bolded bit ties in with what I would have thought, the colour info not so much

I remember reading about the Orloff (?) Trotter developed in Russia in the 1800's somethings, sire mated to daughter for 5 or 6 generations. Now THAT would give Mr Wirthless and his friends heart failure ;)

Edited November 11, 2010 by Sandra777

[jacqui835]

Yes well now we could find pet homes for them - weims weren't allowed to be just pets back then. The blue staffy BYB's have no trouble finding pet homes for their inferior produce and they don't even do any health testing or breed selection...

So that would see those blue SBT breeders homing pups with a risk of inherited health issues - even breeding those pups is now against the law in Victoria. Breeding without that health testing might see a few Victorians end up on the wrong side of that legislation and with the Vic consumer affairs people knocking on the door too. There's a wake up call if anyone needed one. Dogs VIC should be taking a pretty hard look at registering ANY pup from a breeder that fails to health test for known heritable conditions. I doubt the other states will be too far behind on this sort of legislation.

I hope they come up with a DNA test for dilute colour alopecia really soon.

Wait, I'm not saying I condone the breeding of random animals that may or may not have health issues, just saying, take a look at Petlink and you'll see heaps of ads from people who are doing just that... I am glad there are laws being introduced to try and prevent that. The point I was making was that the Weim today does not seem have a heap more health problems than any other pure breed of dog (and in fact less than many), but initially, colour was a factor in their development, and a recessive dilute colour at that. Back then according to the breed history if your dog was a shoddy hunter it couldn't be bred from, and they kept such tight wraps on the dog that they were able to control it (unlike what happens with staffies today).

[poodlefan]

Jacqui:

The point I was making was that the Weim today does not seem have a heap more health problems than any other pure breed of dog (and in fact less than many),

That's debatable. Personally I think the Weim is still emerging from the curse of being a popular dog in the 70's

The American Cocker Spaniel (in the USA) was described in one veterinary health book I've read as "a walking congenital disaster area". At the time the book was written, it would have been the most popular and probably most BYB or milled breed in that country.

There are many breed fanciers who dread their preferred breed ever becoming popular and attracting the kinds of fly by night, breed what's hot, types you see pick up and drop breeds like last year's fashion. If you want to see a breed develop a raft of health issues, that's how to do it. ;) And that has more to do with the breeders than the dogs.

[poodlefan]

Jacqui:

The point I was making was that the Weim today does not seem have a heap more health problems than any other pure breed of dog (and in fact less than many),

That's debatable. Personally I think the Weim is still emerging from the curse of being a popular dog in the 70's

The American Cocker Spaniel (in the USA) was described in one veterinary health book I've read as "a walking congenital disaster area". At the time the book was written, it would have been the most popular and probably most BYB or milled breed in that country.

There are many breed fanciers who dread their preferred breed ever becoming popular and attracting the kinds of fly by night, breed what's hot, types you see pick up and drop breeds like last year's fashion. If you want to see a breed develop a raft of health issues, that's how to do it. ;) And that has more to do with the breeders than the dogs.

[jacqui835]

Jacqui:

The point I was making was that the Weim today does not seem have a heap more health problems than any other pure breed of dog (and in fact less than many),

That's debatable. Personally I think the Weim is still emerging from the curse of being a popular dog in the 70's

The American Cocker Spaniel (in the USA) was described in one veterinary health book I've read as "a walking congenital disaster area". At the time the book was written, it would have been the most popular and probably most BYB or milled breed in that country.

There are many breed fanciers who dread their preferred breed ever becoming popular and attracting the kinds of fly by night, breed what's hot, types you see pick up and drop breeds like last year's fashion. If you want to see a breed develop a raft of health issues, that's how to do it. ;) And that has more to do with the breeders than the dogs.

Yes, I love that my doberman seems to make a good impression on people, but I get quite scared when they look at him, and then at their own crazy, out of control and non-responsive submissive breed and say something like, hmm, I think perhaps we should try a doberman, they seem like a better breed or whatever.

But in regards to your post, seems like you're stating that if the Weim is suffering more health problems, it's because it was too popular and subject to indiscriminate breeding, not because of the initial goal to breed a distinctively coloured dog who was also a good hunting companion. I suppose it could be argued that the Weim's distinctive colour has then caused it extensive trouble, but not because of the colour genetics, but rather because of how much people like it. Somehow though I think we'll be more successful in the long run by trying to educate people of why it's important to not breed indiscriminately, rather than never breeding with colour as a factor. For example, I am obsessed with dobermans, and I have been told by training clubs, breeders and randoms that I'm an ideal doberman owner. But because of the crap that we faced when we had a black and tan rottie, I probably would not have gotten a doberman if they didn't come in red. It seems silly, but you would not believe the different kind of reception this dog gets compared to the black rottie, despite being equally well-natured, and then of course the impact that then has on the way the dog views people. Nobody on the street ever told me the rottie had a good nature, or was a great dog etc, but my doberman gets that on an almost daily basis. Does that sort of thing matter? In my opinion yes, because the rottie became more and more cautious around people she didn't know, because they were always acting strange and like they were scared of her. So for me, colour was a decisive factor in dog selection.

People want blue staffies - personally I find the colour extremely attractive, but would not select one at the expense of health and type. There are many people who don't want to show, are happy to desex their dogs as early as possible, but want a blue staffy. They seem to choose a crap blue staffy over a good staffy of another colour (often because they don't know any better and the websites are misleading). But they would probably choose a good well-bred blue staffy from a renowned breeder over a crap blue staffy from an unknown yobbo, especially if it were the same price or cheaper and came with papers and breeder support and advice (which frankly I think is essential for anyone taking on a dog, let alone a staffy). And plenty of these people are decent owners (who could possibly be great owners if they got a little more support and advice), I see them down at the park. They're not perfect, and the dogs aren't always as balanced as they could be, but the dogs are quite happy and owner and dog seem to love each other. And I don't think there's anything wrong with registered breeders who are trying to improve dog breeds making a bit of money on the side by breeding to the tastes of the market, whilst incorporating their own values and standards. But let me make very clear that making money should not be the reason anyone goes into dog breeding. This I believe would potentially lead to a reduction in the rate of indiscriminate breeding and a rise in good responsible dog ownership.

Just my opinion though, and I'm no dog breeder and never will be. Just a dog lover and I hate seeing so many extremely poor examples of the breed - there's like 500 staffies at the park, but only like 5 are any colour other than blue, and most of those with other coloured staffies stare longingly at the blue ones, and comment on how beautiful they are. Now the breeders may say, well I never want to sell my dogs to anyone but the best and I don't want to attract those sorts of types. But, if they don't, they get the dogs from somewhere else, from someone who grabbed the first two blue staffies they could, probably from someone else doing the same thing they are, and overall, it's worse for the breed. I don't know, it's a difficult situation...

[SparkyTansy]

if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me.

It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO.

Well, my understanding is that colour was a key factor in the development of the Weim... They selectively bred for a recessive colour to distinguish the dogs as well as aiming for a superior hunting dog - Weim's were reserved for royalty and the rich and famous for some time after their development and could not be owned merely as a pet, however, unlike other hunting breeds, they were kept inside the house at night because they were so valuable. There were enormous constraints on which dogs could be used for breeding, primarily proof of their working ability, but the unique colour was deliberate and actively maintained, not because these animals were initially the superior hunting dogs, but because they were distinguishable, which was as important to the royals and wealthy who developed them as their hunting ability...

And I bet they culled each and every dog that developed health problems, just like they'd have culled dogs that failed to be superior hunters. Times have changed and we don't tend to knock dogs on the head at the first sign of issues these days.

Yes they did - which is likely why the breed ended up being successful.

And PF you are right - it's popularity that causes the most problems... blue weims are starting to become a popular phase in the US right now... and they are seeing health problems that don't usually pop up at all in the silver weimaraner.

Also Jacqui, you might be interested to know in Germany they still place the same restrictions on people owning a weimaraner - you must hunt the dog, for starters. If you want to breed one, the breed warden of the club not only approves the bitch for mating, but chooses the sire.