The Reason Why You Cant

[Kirty]

Fair enough for people to comment on whether or not the pup is show quality, but geez some people are just mean on this forum. Was it really necessary to tell the woman her dog is not cute? Far out. Its a puppy. All puppies are cute. That was just rude and has nothing to do with the quality or otherwise of the dog.

FWIW, I think he is very cute.

[Sandra777]

Fair enough for people to comment on whether or not the pup is show quality, but geez some people are just mean on this forum. Was it really necessary to tell the woman her dog is not cute? Far out. Its a puppy. All puppies are cute. That was just rude and has nothing to do with the quality or otherwise of the dog.

I never said the dog was not cute, I said I did not personally find him cute. I don't find all puppies invariably cute - in fact puppies of some breeds and crosses I personally find quite repulsive (and some I don't think look that great as adults either )

But dee_al you ask what is wrong with your dog. As a pet which is why you bought him - not a thing.

For the show ring, what does it matter, you stated very clearly you have no interest in showing him anyway. And the first thing you need to learn about the show ring is that a dog wins on it's virtues so if you decide to take an interest in showing you need to know what is right with your dog, not what is wrong. Any idiot can find fault in even the finest dog.

[conztruct]

Fair enough for people to comment on whether or not the pup is show quality, but geez some people are just mean on this forum. Was it really necessary to tell the woman her dog is not cute? Far out. Its a puppy. All puppies are cute. That was just rude and has nothing to do with the quality or otherwise of the dog.

FWIW, I think he is very cute.

I find him cute but not everyone is the same. Do you want people to be honest or just sugar coat things.

I'm not being smart about it - in my breed you very very frequently get told by the public, show exhibitors, breeders and judges that your dogs are the ugliest thing alive. I can appreciate that everyone has their own opinion and I respect that however, quite a few of the dissidents should take a good look in the mirror IMHO and they might just have a new taker for the prize they've awarded my dog.......

[koalathebear]

I never said the dog was not cute, I said I did not personally find him cute. I don't find all puppies invariably cute - in fact puppies of some breeds and crosses I personally find quite repulsive (and some I don't think look that great as adults either )

"The dog is not cute"

"I do not personally find the dog cute"

The tone and intended meaning might perhaps be different but the end result is the same given that no one here can claim to be the Ultimate Objective Arbiter of Cuteness, no matter how declaratory, definite and emphatic we might sound when passing judgement. When opining on whether something is cute or not cute, the "in my opinion" must always be implied given that there is no objective standard of Cuteness as there aren't the benchmarks that exist when judging if a dog has what it takes to make it in the show ring. There's Cute, there's Cute Ugly and there's Cute Nice which is as damning as Nice ...

Of course there's no obligation to sugar-coat things. There's no mandatory law saying we have to be nice ... while I think it was a wee bit harsh to tell someone her beloved doggie is not cute (in my opinion, the puppy in question is cute ;), I am also one of those people that don't automatically think that all puppies are cute - I don't also believe that all babies are cute. Some are ... not so cute ...

Edited November 9, 2010 by koalathebear

[Sheridan]

I find him cute but not everyone is the same. Do you want people to be honest or just sugar coat things.

I'm not being smart about it - in my breed you very very frequently get told by the public, show exhibitors, breeders and judges that your dogs are the ugliest thing alive. I can appreciate that everyone has their own opinion and I respect that however, quite a few of the dissidents should take a good look in the mirror IMHO and they might just have a new taker for the prize they've awarded my dog.......

There's honesty and then there's being little and mean. There was no need to say anything at all.

[OSoSwift]

DA - he is your puppy who you love and look after very well. If you are not interested in showing then I personally wouldn't be worried about what anyone's opinion is about your boy.

If you push to get the nitty gritty I can tell you from experience it will hurt because in your eyes he is perfect - which of course he is! I have asked the questions and been given the answers about a previous dog of mine I did show and it is still upsetting even when they are right.

So love him, enjoy him - but I would leave it at that.

BTW He is cute to me

[sas]

LOL are people seriously debating whether a dog is cute or not?

[raz]

Where's the photo of the puppy - I cant see him at all.

I havent shown for a while but I have never personally seen a blue Stafford entered in the showring. And I agree with conztruct - if I heard a breeder say 'ofcourse the blue staffords cost more (a little, a lot, doesnt matter) I wouldnt touch them with a 10 foot pole

[koalathebear]

LOL are people seriously debating whether a dog is cute or not?

It had to happen!

[poodlefan]

LOL are people seriously debating whether a dog is cute or not?

It had to happen!

I hope it gives some explanation as to the manner in which breed standards were developed. "Cute" is subjective. How closely a dog adheres to an objective description of desired breed features is less subjective.

I've said it before here - criticising people's dogs is a bit like criticising their kids.. you just don't go there.

However show exhibitors "go there" every time they exhibit. We know we all take the best dog home but gee don't expect every judge to agree with you.

Dee-Al, if your dog will never darken a show ring, unless his conformation is bad enough to cause him problems, does it matter what people think of him as an example of the breed? I think you went in knowing that blues are generally considered to be less than prime examples from a show perspective . I recall the advice given about that at the time. Few dogs produced by "colour breeders" are because colour becomes the prime measure of ideal and other things fall by the wayside.

But he's a pet. You think he's cute. What other people think certainly doesn't matter to your dog so don't worry about it. Of course if you decide to breed from him, then you'd really need to have a hard look at him in terms of the breed standard.

Edited November 9, 2010 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

LOL are people seriously debating whether a dog is cute or not?

It had to happen!

I hope it gives some explanation as to the manner in which breed standards were developed. "Cute" is subjective. How closely a dog adheres to an objective description of desired breed features is less subjective.

I've said it before here - criticising people's dogs is a bit like criticising their kids.. you just don't go there.

However show exhibitors "go there" every time they exhibit. We know we all take the best dog home but gee don't expect every judge to agree with you.

Dee-Al, if your dog will never darken a show ring, unless his conformation is bad enough to cause him problems, does it matter what people think of him as an example of the breed? I think you went in knowing that blues are generally considered to be less than prime examples from a show perspective . I recall the advice given about that at the time. Few dogs produced by "colour breeders" are because colour becomes the prime measure of ideal and other things fall by the wayside.

But he's a pet. You think he's cute. What other people think certainly doesn't matter to your dog so don't worry about it. Of course if you decide to breed from him, then you'd really need to have a hard look at him in terms of the breed standard.

You are right about all other things falling by the way side. Many have forgotten about the simple things like a good turn of stifle, good strong back ends, a front that doesn't point out east and west for you or toes in excessively, weak pasterns and large splayed feet, elbows shouldn't be popped, the heavy overdone bodies that are being supported by less than ideal frames.

In a breed that is supposed to be active and agile, it's a recipe for disaster, but hey, what's the breed standard matter ? after all, you're just buying a pet and not a show dog.

[poodlefan]

You are right about all other things falling by the way side. Many have forgotten about the simple things like a good turn of stifle, good strong back ends, a front that doesn't point out east and west for you or toes in excessively, weak pasterns and large splayed feet, elbows shouldn't be popped, the heavy overdone bodies that are being supported by less than ideal frames.

In a breed that is supposed to be active and agile, it's a recipe for disaster, but hey, what's the breed standard matter ? after all, you're just buying a pet and not a show dog.

Staffords dont' have a monopoly on colour breeding. Sacrificing temperament for colour has occured in at least one breed I can think of and if you haven't got good temperament, then you don't have a good pet.

Sadly RSG, a lot of folk don't understand the link between sound conformation and good pet health.

[WreckitWhippet]

You are right about all other things falling by the way side. Many have forgotten about the simple things like a good turn of stifle, good strong back ends, a front that doesn't point out east and west for you or toes in excessively, weak pasterns and large splayed feet, elbows shouldn't be popped, the heavy overdone bodies that are being supported by less than ideal frames.

In a breed that is supposed to be active and agile, it's a recipe for disaster, but hey, what's the breed standard matter ? after all, you're just buying a pet and not a show dog.

Staffords dont' have a monopoly on colour breeding. Sacrificing temperament for colour has occured in at least one breed I can think of and if you haven't got good temperament, then you don't have a good pet.

Sadly RSG, a lot of folk don't understand the link between sound conformation and good pet health.

Yep, for many it's precieved to be all about ribbons and the show ring.

No dog is perfect and every dog will have it's faults, but geeez, why wouldn't you give yourself the best shot at buying a pup that has good conformation and the potential to remain sound.

[poodlefan]

No dog is perfect and every dog will have it's faults, but geeez, why wouldn't you give yourself the best shot at buying a pup that has good conformation and the potential to remain sound.

And there lies the challenge. Educating puppy buyers of the importance of selecting a breeder who breeds for soundness and type, not one single attribute.

[WreckitWhippet]

No dog is perfect and every dog will have it's faults, but geeez, why wouldn't you give yourself the best shot at buying a pup that has good conformation and the potential to remain sound.

And there lies the challenge. Educating puppy buyers of the importance of selecting a breeder who breeds for soundness and type, not one single attribute.

It so often falls on deaf ears, no matter what approach you take. There is some good news though, we've had quite a few calls from people saying they aren't interested in a blue, how many of them are about and that they want a "Staffy" that looks like a real one.

It's interesting and encouraging to hear average Joe's saying that many of them don't look like "staffy's" any more, so hopefully we are on the way to seeing them being less sought after and the colour breeders disappearing.

[Sandra777]

It's interesting and encouraging to hear average Joe's saying that many of them don't look like "staffy's" any more, so hopefully we are on the way to seeing them being less sought after and the colour breeders disappearing.

Just looking at the adverts on here (which I try to avoid as it gets my blood pressure up ) it certainly looks like it's getting harder for the colour breeders to sell their wares.

I'm finding too that a lot of people are finally figuring out that a dog with basic structural faults (basic to ALL breeds) are less likely to live a normal and happy life.

[asal]

There are plenty of "second rate" dogs being shown if you listen to the ringside comments from onlookers. Not exclusive to staffies though.

So being "second rate" in someones opinion shouldn't preclude a dog from the show ring.

or even a CH title from whats been seen in the past

wasnt that why the "petrol Ch" saying came about?

[asal]

Chocolate is not a dilute. The genes involed in the colors you describe are a bit more complex and there are different ones at work. Could you please tell me where the statistics for occurance of blue gene alopecia are quoted from. It seems to me to be very high.

if u put two black dogs that carry chocolate, on average half the pups will be chocolate. sounds and acts like a recessive dilute to me?

if you put a blue to a chocolate, neither carrying the other colour of the partner, what will you get? BLACK.

again that sure looks like how recessive dilutes act?

if the chocolate is added to golds it doesnt make the gold coat brown, it only dilutes black, so all they get is a chocolate nose. seen heaps of labradors with brown noses, again if it turnes black to brown, seems like dilute to me. blue does the same except the change is to blue.

at least u dont get alopecia in chocolates... hurray

my vet gave that figure.

some of the older vets seem pretty good at diagnosis without mega cost to learn the same result.

for example my vet took one look and diagnosed blue gene alopecia, cost to me... zilch.. he was vaccinating some puppies n string always came along for the ride. seized by the rspca n 500 dollars later gets him back with the same diagnosis...like derrrr considering the vet who diagnosed him was head vet for rscpa Vic before Worthless arrived there, what a total waste of resources and unnecessary suffering to my dog, my horrified vet estimated they had subjected a 1.2 kg dog to a minimum of 22 needle insertions and tore his trachea to come to the same conclusion. is that incompetance or over servicing?

recently a pup developed an abcess, cause unknown, no injouries could be found on the skin, antibiotics cleared up almost all the infection but a snort made both me and the vet suspicious there was a sinus infection still present so onto long acting antibiotic. I was happy to keep taking it to my vet till it got the all clear which was estimate could be months to ensure no possible recurrance, puppies owner this week decided to prefer to take to their vet, i was happy to pay all costs taking it to my vet so im a bit puzzled why they just HAD to get another opinion. especially since i just learned their vet decided to do a "total workup" xrays, blood test etc. all up bill 800 and guess what? same diagnosis and alls fine with the pup.

but gee what a hole in the bank balance.

love my vet

Edited November 10, 2010 by asal

[poodlefan]

There are plenty of "second rate" dogs being shown if you listen to the ringside comments from onlookers. Not exclusive to staffies though.

So being "second rate" in someones opinion shouldn't preclude a dog from the show ring.

or even a CH title from whats been seen in the past

wasnt that why the "petrol Ch" saying came about?

Only the most heartless of exhibitors/breeders would encourage someone to show a dog with severe conformation faults, that lacked type or had an obvious disqualifying fault. There is nothing more demoralising to a new exhibitor than to show a dog that does nothing but lose. In thie case of this breed, the chances of there being little or no competition at shows is negligible. They are the most popular of exhibits in Group 2 and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Its not fun or a great learning experience to show a second rate dog. Yes, opinions vary but some faults would be agreed by all ringside as relegating a dog to that category.

A championship is not guaranteed no matter how far you travel. Dogs get refused all the time. Sure you can escape the big competition but some breeds are at pretty much every show.

[asal]

There are plenty of "second rate" dogs being shown if you listen to the ringside comments from onlookers. Not exclusive to staffies though.

So being "second rate" in someones opinion shouldn't preclude a dog from the show ring.

or even a CH title from whats been seen in the past

wasnt that why the "petrol Ch" saying came about?

Only the most heartless of exhibitors/breeders would encourage someone to show a dog with severe conformation faults, that lacked type or had an obvious disqualifying fault. There is nothing more demoralising to a new exhibitor than to show a dog that does nothing but lose. In thie case of this breed, the chances of there being little or no competition at shows is negligible. They are the most popular of exhibits in Group 2 and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Its not fun or a great learning experience to show a second rate dog. Yes, opinions vary but some faults would be agreed by all ringside as relegating a dog to that category.

A championship is not guaranteed no matter how far you travel. Dogs get refused all the time. Sure you can escape the big competition but some breeds are at pretty much every show.

have a friend who had been on a waiting list for a top quality male. wanted and adult to make sure it was exactly what she was paying for. the dog sold was an australian champion.. got it home, watched it move with her dogs and realised it had a major fault not in their dogs. when told the seller, was advised that all its other attributs outweighed its one problem and to stop fault judging, that as none of her males or bitches had it to simply put the daughters back to her males and the results should be great, was horrified. and so upset has resigned from their breed club and contemplating resigning as a registered breeder is so upset

so it happens